nixluva wrote:Plain and simple this is a good team. Just how good depends on a lot of factors, but we do know that as long as you have Tyson and Camby, then you'll have a good defensive team. Anytime you can take away layups you will have a better shot to win games.

My fear is what kind of offense will Woody install and will that benefit more than just Melo. The issue we had last year was that the only player that thrived in a halfcourt ISO offense was Melo!!! Everyone else needed an uptempo, ball and player movement style in order to succeed. I was saying it for weeks before the playoffs when the team was winning but I could see a problem once we got in a matchup with the Heat. You can't run a simplistic ISO offense against the Heat defense.

We saw that Novak couldn't get off and other players couldn't get in a rhythm as well. Some will say we didn't have Lin so that was the issue, but it was more about the STYLE of play. The team did have success playing a spread offense with PnR and lots of off the ball movement. I posted screen shots of those plays and you can see why that style worked against good defenses. It forced the defense to cover more ground and give help thus creating holes to exploit. What will Woody's offense actually look like?

Felton really only thrives in an uptempo offense, so i'm dubious about his success in a slow it down ISO offense. Does Woody know that Felton is not good at Ground n Pound halfcourt offense? Felton has gone on record as admitting that he prefers to run and struggles in the slow it down style. This is my only real concern. How will Woody do at his one weak spot which has been creative offensive coaching. Can he come up with something that will enhance the entire roster? My thought is that the offense will not be very dynamic but that we'll win despite having a suspect offense. If the D is good enough, you'll get some easy baskets on the break off turnovers. You can play ball possession and keep the score down. That's what I think is most likely to happen.

Nix...Woodson is on record as saying he learned some things on the offensive end froom MDA. I'm pretty sure he will implement some of those nuances into the offense next year as he did when he took over.

mrKnickShot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

nixluva wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:hey i dont mind veterans in fact i was all for the kidd/camby moves but i think having some youth is important. Missing shump for the first half really stinks because my main worry is when we play the faster backcourt

Yeah that will be a weakness at times, but i'm not gonna say just yet that it's gonna be a major issue considering we're looking at mostly the same roster that won so many games after Lin went down. It's pretty much the same core group with a stronger bench. Especially once Shump is back. IMO Kidd and Felton is an upgrade over Baron and Bibby!!!

Yeah they will do well in the regular season, then choke in the playoffs.

was losing to Miami a choke?

Uptown wrote:

nixluva wrote:Plain and simple this is a good team. Just how good depends on a lot of factors, but we do know that as long as you have Tyson and Camby, then you'll have a good defensive team. Anytime you can take away layups you will have a better shot to win games.

My fear is what kind of offense will Woody install and will that benefit more than just Melo. The issue we had last year was that the only player that thrived in a halfcourt ISO offense was Melo!!! Everyone else needed an uptempo, ball and player movement style in order to succeed. I was saying it for weeks before the playoffs when the team was winning but I could see a problem once we got in a matchup with the Heat. You can't run a simplistic ISO offense against the Heat defense.

We saw that Novak couldn't get off and other players couldn't get in a rhythm as well. Some will say we didn't have Lin so that was the issue, but it was more about the STYLE of play. The team did have success playing a spread offense with PnR and lots of off the ball movement. I posted screen shots of those plays and you can see why that style worked against good defenses. It forced the defense to cover more ground and give help thus creating holes to exploit. What will Woody's offense actually look like?

Felton really only thrives in an uptempo offense, so i'm dubious about his success in a slow it down ISO offense. Does Woody know that Felton is not good at Ground n Pound halfcourt offense? Felton has gone on record as admitting that he prefers to run and struggles in the slow it down style. This is my only real concern. How will Woody do at his one weak spot which has been creative offensive coaching. Can he come up with something that will enhance the entire roster? My thought is that the offense will not be very dynamic but that we'll win despite having a suspect offense. If the D is good enough, you'll get some easy baskets on the break off turnovers. You can play ball possession and keep the score down. That's what I think is most likely to happen.

Nix...Woodson is on record as saying he learned some things on the offensive end froom MDA. I'm pretty sure he will implement some of those nuances into the offense next year as he did when he took over.

Woody was kind of spotty in his offensive play calling. Perhaps that had a lot to do with trying to find a balance between MDA stuff and his own, but there's no real concrete proof of just what Woody intends to do offensively this coming year.

There was a style that worked and he kind of went away from it. He stopped running a spread offense with lots of off ball motion and things ground to a halt. I'm hoping that Woody learned from last year that you can't beat the Heat with a purely ISO system. Did you see much evidence of Woody's offensive coaching skill in the playoffs? Despite the loss of PG's, there were still options available to him that I didn't see him use. It's not about losing to the Heat, which was inevitable, but how they lost. I just didn't see enough from Woody.

Still that has nothing to do with this teams ability to win games based on defense. They may not be a top offensive team, but if they can be efficient that could be enough to really be a top team in the East.

VCoug wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:Plain and simple this is a good team. Just how good depends on a lot of factors, but we do know that as long as you have Tyson and Camby, then you'll have a good defensive team. Anytime you can take away layups you will have a better shot to win games.

My fear is what kind of offense will Woody install and will that benefit more than just Melo. The issue we had last year was that the only player that thrived in a halfcourt ISO offense was Melo!!! Everyone else needed an uptempo, ball and player movement style in order to succeed. I was saying it for weeks before the playoffs when the team was winning but I could see a problem once we got in a matchup with the Heat. You can't run a simplistic ISO offense against the Heat defense.

We saw that Novak couldn't get off and other players couldn't get in a rhythm as well. Some will say we didn't have Lin so that was the issue, but it was more about the STYLE of play. The team did have success playing a spread offense with PnR and lots of off the ball movement. I posted screen shots of those plays and you can see why that style worked against good defenses. It forced the defense to cover more ground and give help thus creating holes to exploit. What will Woody's offense actually look like?

Felton really only thrives in an uptempo offense, so i'm dubious about his success in a slow it down ISO offense. Does Woody know that Felton is not good at Ground n Pound halfcourt offense? Felton has gone on record as admitting that he prefers to run and struggles in the slow it down style. This is my only real concern. How will Woody do at his one weak spot which has been creative offensive coaching. Can he come up with something that will enhance the entire roster? My thought is that the offense will not be very dynamic but that we'll win despite having a suspect offense. If the D is good enough, you'll get some easy baskets on the break off turnovers. You can play ball possession and keep the score down. That's what I think is most likely to happen.

Agree with most of your points except the one about Felton thriving in only an uptempo offense. Didn't Felton run a structured half court grind it out offense under the grindiest of halfcourt coaches in Larry Brown when they made the playoffs in Charlotte?

They made the playoffs but I wouldn't say that Felton thrived.

Felton didn't thrive, but he wasn't terrible by any means.

He played 80 games that year, averaged 46% FG, 39% 3PT%, 4 rebounds, 1.5 stls. Not bad for a halfcourt style Charlotte team.

VCoug wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VCoug wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:Plain and simple this is a good team. Just how good depends on a lot of factors, but we do know that as long as you have Tyson and Camby, then you'll have a good defensive team. Anytime you can take away layups you will have a better shot to win games.

My fear is what kind of offense will Woody install and will that benefit more than just Melo. The issue we had last year was that the only player that thrived in a halfcourt ISO offense was Melo!!! Everyone else needed an uptempo, ball and player movement style in order to succeed. I was saying it for weeks before the playoffs when the team was winning but I could see a problem once we got in a matchup with the Heat. You can't run a simplistic ISO offense against the Heat defense.

We saw that Novak couldn't get off and other players couldn't get in a rhythm as well. Some will say we didn't have Lin so that was the issue, but it was more about the STYLE of play. The team did have success playing a spread offense with PnR and lots of off the ball movement. I posted screen shots of those plays and you can see why that style worked against good defenses. It forced the defense to cover more ground and give help thus creating holes to exploit. What will Woody's offense actually look like?

Felton really only thrives in an uptempo offense, so i'm dubious about his success in a slow it down ISO offense. Does Woody know that Felton is not good at Ground n Pound halfcourt offense? Felton has gone on record as admitting that he prefers to run and struggles in the slow it down style. This is my only real concern. How will Woody do at his one weak spot which has been creative offensive coaching. Can he come up with something that will enhance the entire roster? My thought is that the offense will not be very dynamic but that we'll win despite having a suspect offense. If the D is good enough, you'll get some easy baskets on the break off turnovers. You can play ball possession and keep the score down. That's what I think is most likely to happen.

Agree with most of your points except the one about Felton thriving in only an uptempo offense. Didn't Felton run a structured half court grind it out offense under the grindiest of halfcourt coaches in Larry Brown when they made the playoffs in Charlotte?

They made the playoffs but I wouldn't say that Felton thrived.

Felton didn't thrive, but he wasn't terrible by any means.

He played 80 games that year, averaged 46% FG, 39% 3PT%, 4 rebounds, 1.5 stls. Not bad for a halfcourt style Charlotte team.

He also averaged 12ppg and 5.6apg. How many point guards could have put up those same numbers? My guess is at least 20 point guards and probably another dozen or so shooting guards.

You have to remember it was a Larry Brown offense there:

PTS/G: 95.3 (28th of 30) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 93.8 (1st of 30).

How many point guards have put up monster numbers in his system besides maybe Mark Jackson? And don't bring up Allen Iverson, Eric Snow was the point there, so you could probably see the correlation.

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VCoug wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

VCoug wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:Plain and simple this is a good team. Just how good depends on a lot of factors, but we do know that as long as you have Tyson and Camby, then you'll have a good defensive team. Anytime you can take away layups you will have a better shot to win games.

My fear is what kind of offense will Woody install and will that benefit more than just Melo. The issue we had last year was that the only player that thrived in a halfcourt ISO offense was Melo!!! Everyone else needed an uptempo, ball and player movement style in order to succeed. I was saying it for weeks before the playoffs when the team was winning but I could see a problem once we got in a matchup with the Heat. You can't run a simplistic ISO offense against the Heat defense.

We saw that Novak couldn't get off and other players couldn't get in a rhythm as well. Some will say we didn't have Lin so that was the issue, but it was more about the STYLE of play. The team did have success playing a spread offense with PnR and lots of off the ball movement. I posted screen shots of those plays and you can see why that style worked against good defenses. It forced the defense to cover more ground and give help thus creating holes to exploit. What will Woody's offense actually look like?

Felton really only thrives in an uptempo offense, so i'm dubious about his success in a slow it down ISO offense. Does Woody know that Felton is not good at Ground n Pound halfcourt offense? Felton has gone on record as admitting that he prefers to run and struggles in the slow it down style. This is my only real concern. How will Woody do at his one weak spot which has been creative offensive coaching. Can he come up with something that will enhance the entire roster? My thought is that the offense will not be very dynamic but that we'll win despite having a suspect offense. If the D is good enough, you'll get some easy baskets on the break off turnovers. You can play ball possession and keep the score down. That's what I think is most likely to happen.

Agree with most of your points except the one about Felton thriving in only an uptempo offense. Didn't Felton run a structured half court grind it out offense under the grindiest of halfcourt coaches in Larry Brown when they made the playoffs in Charlotte?

They made the playoffs but I wouldn't say that Felton thrived.

Felton didn't thrive, but he wasn't terrible by any means.

He played 80 games that year, averaged 46% FG, 39% 3PT%, 4 rebounds, 1.5 stls. Not bad for a halfcourt style Charlotte team.

He also averaged 12ppg and 5.6apg. How many point guards could have put up those same numbers? My guess is at least 20 point guards and probably another dozen or so shooting guards.

You have to remember it was a Larry Brown offense there:

PTS/G: 95.3 (28th of 30) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 93.8 (1st of 30).

How many point guards have put up monster numbers in his system besides maybe Mark Jackson? And don't bring up Allen Iverson, Eric Snow was the point there, so you could probably see the correlation.

In 33 mins.

The 3 years prior to that, he was a pretty consistent 14 and 7. Thats excellent in that system

In Larry Brown's system? He was only hired one year prior. The two years previous to that he played under Sam Vincent; Felton also shot under 40% from the field those years. What's really interesting is the year they went to the playoffs Felton's minutes and role with the team was reduced.

Knixkik wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:I just hope Amare Stoudemire doesn't play the Charles Smith role...

why would you put those guys name in the same sentence..thats like comparing douglas to lin

I hope he becomes our Oakley, Mason, or LJ. Hope I'm wrong.

I always assumed Stoudemire would become an LJ-type in his later years. When the athletic abilities are declined he can be a leader and a guy who can come up big when it counts. He won't put up 20+ anymore, but can be just as efficient. Chandler is the Oakley of the team with his toughness and heart, JR Smith is the Starks with his love/hate streakiness and intensity, Melo is the Ewing as the superstar that carries the team, and Felton is like Harper, a PG that can just gets the job done. This team has a lot of comparison to the mid-to-late 90s Knicks.

Can't argue with any of that at all.

Syniko wrote:This entire thread is very clown worthy.

I suppose it would seem like that to someone who thinks the Lin is the New York Knicks, and is an irreplaceable basketball god.

Look, you're a big Lin fan, and it's really tough when your team ditches your favourite player for stupid reasons (we've all been there), but why don't you just start following the Rockets and posting on Rocket boards- he's going to be the main focal point of that team for years to come. Why just post negative stuff on threads where people are trying to look at the positives of our situation?

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:IT's really been quiet on the Knicks FA search lately. I wonder if they're looking at Ronnie Brewer or Carlos Delfino to fill out the SG spot. It just seems like were light in that area this year. You have to think they know they need help on the perimeter shooting wise. If they do a good job adding help at SG this team could bump up even more in terms of their chances in the East. We've got to be able to keep defenses honest and create some space for Melo and STAT to operate or else teams will really pack it in on us.

I think we've just reached that point in the offseason where we have to wait for teams to run out of spending money- the players you mentioned would help, but they're still hoping for more than the minimum. Also sometimes it's worth waiting to see who gets cut- that's how we got Novak and Lin last year.

Hmm.. What do people think of AK 47? He's deciding whether to rerun to the nba for the minimum - nets are listed as front runners, but I'm sure he and Deron used to but heads- I remember Deron calling him out for a lack of effort, I think (could have been calling out someone else though, it's vague memory!). He's a great passer and defender- replaces JJ nicely as our back up SF, plus it would be nice to mess with the Nets plans.

Not bad. AK47 is a good role player. Too bad we don't have any more MLE money to give someone. At this point it's gonna be near impossible to get guys that are looking for serious money. I think just one more SG is pretty much all we need right now. A guy like Delfino would be perfect if we had a little more money I think he'd come. Not so sure about the Vet Min. That's really pushing it for a guy of his caliber.

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:IT's really been quiet on the Knicks FA search lately. I wonder if they're looking at Ronnie Brewer or Carlos Delfino to fill out the SG spot. It just seems like were light in that area this year. You have to think they know they need help on the perimeter shooting wise. If they do a good job adding help at SG this team could bump up even more in terms of their chances in the East. We've got to be able to keep defenses honest and create some space for Melo and STAT to operate or else teams will really pack it in on us.

I think we've just reached that point in the offseason where we have to wait for teams to run out of spending money- the players you mentioned would help, but they're still hoping for more than the minimum. Also sometimes it's worth waiting to see who gets cut- that's how we got Novak and Lin last year.

Hmm.. What do people think of AK 47? He's deciding whether to rerun to the nba for the minimum - nets are listed as front runners, but I'm sure he and Deron used to but heads- I remember Deron calling him out for a lack of effort, I think (could have been calling out someone else though, it's vague memory!). He's a great passer and defender- replaces JJ nicely as our back up SF, plus it would be nice to mess with the Nets plans.

Not bad. AK47 is a good role player. Too bad we don't have any more MLE money to give someone. At this point it's gonna be near impossible to get guys that are looking for serious money. I think just one more SG is pretty much all we need right now. A guy like Delfino would be perfect if we had a little more money I think he'd come. Not so sure about the Vet Min. That's really pushing it for a guy of his caliber.

Yeah, Delfino and AK47 are the 2 players I would target, I feel they are the smart type of players that would fit right in.
AK47 has a contract for 3m per year at Russia but still has interest in coming back to the NBA, talking with the Nets which only has the vet min the offer.
He is in his last years if he wants to be able to compete in the NBA for a ring while actually contributing real/meaningful minutes.

In terms of value, it has been a very weird year, after the new CBA and partly because of the amnesty/poison pills. Aside from Lin, Fields/Omar Osik, even Kwame Brown gets questionable contracts.
While players like Chris Kaman, Humphries, Sessions, are unable to get long term contracts, as they have shown the ability to be above average good NBA players, making much less than the poison pills and their value.

Players like Watson, which carried the Bulls during the season and play phenomenal signs a 2 year vet minimum deal *player option* and John Lucas III is unable to find much more than the vet minimum either. Surprisingly they are very young and played very well in the season that lead to The Bulls being having the best record in the NBA last season. This doesn't normally happen to younger players with upside and potential with vet min like deals. This is where I can see Delfino and even AK47 making from the vet minimum to the 3m MLE. While we can give Delfino the opportunity to start and contribute major minutes in SG/SF spots. AK47 is unlikely but if he is considering the Nets, I would give him the the starting position over STAT and move him as the alpha of the 2nd unit. Giving both players player options like Watson did with the Nets, giving them a starting spot to contribute major meaningful minutes to convince them to sign with us instead.

While players like Eric Gordon/Hibbert/Battum/Ryan Anderson/Ilyasova gets some max/nice contracts, Dragic/Beasley/Oj Mayo gets under payed.

Hinrich making 3m for a 2 year deal, with Sessions being a much better player making 4m for 2 years, although not as good defensively. AR for 6m for 3 years.
While Foye/JR Smith are some younger SGs have problems finding decent contracts while Courtney Lee/ Terry/ Ray Allen/ are able to find good deals.
The NBA/teams offering contracts seems all flawed to me in terms of determining the youth/value/skills.

The market is just very weird, judging by this summer's contracts, JR Smith could be worth anywhere from 3 under 5m per year with the way he played last season.
I don't think he actually got any great offers, maybe 1 -2 year deals at 4-5m, or 3 year 9m deals.
I think he is banking that Dolan will give him the best contract after "taking less $$5" for a long term deal with early bird rights.
With Lin, making that 15m in year 3, it would completely kill JR Smith's chances in landing a long term good deal.

JR Smith just isn't as good as Terry/Ray Allen/Beasley/Mayo.
It is debatable with Courtney Lee, while Lee has the more complete team game that would fit chemistry, and JR is the better scorer.
So I don't see Smith making 6m a year when the above didn't do so or barely doing so when they are much more talented and complete than Smith.