On first blush I would like a return to a more rugged brand of Knicks basketball, built on offense flowing from the blocks, aggressive rebounding and shotblocking and hard-ass Kurt Thomas fouls. I'm not sure this gets us there, but that's just my personal basketball prejudice (fueled largely from my parks-and-rec league career as a low-post player forced to watch hacks toss up terrible jumper after terrible jumper! )

CTKnicksfan wrote:Letting Lin walk for nothing is dumb. I'm ok if he's not part of the master plan, but then at least match and trade him on Dec 15th.

The counter here is that it is extremely risky. That's two months of exposure and if Linsanity proves to be a fluke or even marginalized, you have no takers, because that back end of the contract is indeed an absolute cap-killer. We write it off because we're taxpayers anyway, but no one is going to pick up that contract if Lin proves to be merely a solid pro (and without the MDA offense as support, there's an excellent chance his numbers will come down to earth). And what if that knee blows out? Remember the MRI revealed a chronic, small meniscus tear in his knee. And if his skillset doesn't fit in the new game-plan, it doesn't fit. So you're essentially going into the new season using Lin as only a showcase for a trade, and not with the best intentions of the club at heart (again, based on the premise that this new direction is what the brass down to the coaching staff agree upon.)

Again, I don't want to be in the position bashing Lin. I'm a big fan.

EDIT: beaten by smackeddog.

VCoug wrote:Replacing him with Felton doesn't make sense since Felton has never shown he can be effective outside of MDA's fast-paced offense.

It's not apples to apples. These are two different skillsets. In the context of this new plan, you don't need a ball-dominant, penetrating point guard. You need a facilitator, a smart passer, a solid defender and someone who can hit an open three. Lin's strength is a quick first step and an ability to get in the paint and be creative. Noble attributes, but wouldn't fit with his approach.

loweyecue wrote:If by vision you mean marginalizing every one not called Melo so he can have the entire spotlight to himslef then I agree.

Don't want to make this another Melo thread, but this is exactly the opposite of what I am conjecturing. Why do you think Amare is being asked to work on his back-to-the-basket game? To be another option in the blocks. Why was Kidd brought in? To mentor Kidd or maybe to use his pedigree and stature to put Melo is the best place to succeed and call him on the times he tries to do much himself. Sorry, but any coach who publicly calls out the face of the franchise to get into better shape is not looking to make huge, landscape-changing roster moves purely to get on his Christmas card list.

loweyecue wrote:[All you talk about is slow half court offense. Good luck with Camby, Tyson and Kidd running back to defend fast breaks.

So a motion-based, pick-and-roll offense against the best team in the league at defending that won't result in fast breaks? The Knicks are thinking--as is my best guess--that a methodical, more traditional offense based on passing out of double teams and pounding the glass will take some gas out of the Heat's Blitzkrieg D. May not be as fun to watch, but that feels like the strategy here.

fishmike wrote:Glad you dont run my team

Thanks for your constructive feedback.

Gymkata wrote:

VCoug wrote:Replacing him with Felton doesn't make sense since Felton has never shown he can be effective outside of MDA's fast-paced offense.

It's not apples to apples. These are two different skillsets. In the context of this new plan, you don't need a ball-dominant, penetrating point guard. You need a facilitator, a smart passer, a solid defender and someone who can hit an open three. Lin's strength is a quick first step and an ability to get in the paint and be creative. Noble attributes, but wouldn't fit with his approach.

Felton is a ball-dominant, penetrating point guard. He's not a facilitator or a smart passer or a solid defender or someone who can hit an open three. He's not better than Lin at anything other than defense and even then it's not as if he's shutdown or anything. The difference between Felton's and Lin's defense is the difference between Amare's and David Lee's. In every other aspect Felton falls short of Lin.

Gymkata wrote:

loweyecue wrote:If by vision you mean marginalizing every one not called Melo so he can have the entire spotlight to himslef then I agree.

Don't want to make this another Melo thread, but this is exactly the opposite of what I am conjecturing. Why do you think Amare is being asked to work on his back-to-the-basket game? To be another option in the blocks. Why was Kidd brought in? To mentor Kidd or maybe to use his pedigree and stature to put Melo is the best place to succeed and call him on the times he tries to do much himself. Sorry, but any coach who publicly calls out the face of the franchise to get into better shape is not looking to make huge, landscape-changing roster moves purely to get on his Christmas card list.

Yes calling out your star publicly is what really good cocaching is all about. I feel soooo much better now.

Gymkata wrote:

loweyecue wrote:[All you talk about is slow half court offense. Good luck with Camby, Tyson and Kidd running back to defend fast breaks.

So a motion-based, pick-and-roll offense against the best team in the league at defending that won't result in fast breaks? The Knicks are thinking--as is my best guess--that a methodical, more traditional offense based on passing out of double teams and pounding the glass will take some gas out of the Heat's Blitzkrieg D. May not be as fun to watch, but that feels like the strategy here.

I was talking about our ability to defend when the HEAT go on fastbreaks.

nixluva wrote:This is a very strange set of issues.

1. I think Woody made it clear to Grunwald that he didn't feel Lin was the best PG for what he wanted to do.
If you remember Woody made several Disparaging remarks about Lin but walked those comments back. Woody is a LB disciple and the complete polar opposite of MDA.

2. Melo also tried to talk up Lin and make it seem like he was super supportive, but I think that was mostly because he saw how popular Lin was. I think Melo was actually really jealous of Lin and didn't like the MDA style which went thru Lin 1st and Melo 2nd. This gets back to Woody who I believe was brought in to be the future coach and Melo made sure that happened and pretty much was ELATED when MDA left and Woody started talking about going thru Melo.

3. Lin for his part probably saw the writing on the wall and did what was in his best interests. Why should Lin give up guaranteed money for the Knicks when Woody and Melo want to push him back to being serve it up to Melo and get out of the way PG? If i'm Lin I think i'd notice the diff between MDA and Woody in terms of support.

4. This is the right thing to do if you want to play a Pistons style of BB and not have a PG driven offense. All Woody knows is that Pistons style and he's seen it win so why would he want to do anything else??? Woody didn't want to play Teague in ATL and in much the same way he really didn't like Lin's game either. Woody has made a lot of pro Lin comments, but I've never really believed him. Also the way Grunwald built the team you can see that he was gearing it more towards Woody than MDA. That makes sense cuz i'm sure he heard from Dolan that MDA was not getting another extension. This is now a Ground n Pound team with a Ground n Pound Coach.

I think your reaching here in every aspect..why would his pro lin remarks be taking lightly, and put more emphisis on his suspect comments about lin..

Lin is a really good PG and a hard worker and a hell of an investment, the knicks would be assine not to match that offer...2 teams made the mistake already..Don't be fooled, he put historical #s during his run, even if it's a little inflated, by no stretch is this kid avg, no stretch....

Woodson signed because he maximized Melo. Amare is probably next. 1 chief and indians.

Maybe Morey told Grunwald something during Camby negotiations then ambushed him with this.

In 3 years we'll have the answer to the following questions:

- Was Lin an MDA created flash in the pan?
- Was Lin a much more likeable Melo - someone who can only succeed with the rock in his hands? And therefore someone who could not co-exist with Melo? (like...STAT?)

- Will Felton come into camp in the best shape of his career?
- Was Felton an MDA created flash in the pan?

- Will this somehow lead to Chris Paul?

- Will this roster get us past the Heat or lead to one that does?

For now we're all just talkin out of our collective butts about how Lin is overrated or Felton is a fatso.

Keep calm and chive on.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:I love Lin and am SHOCKED that the same team that grossly overpaid for Jerome James, Jared Jeffries and Eddy Curry won't take a chance on a kid with potential who will make them tons of $. Perhaps his turnovers would have continuted and killed us against a team like the Heat that run on everything.

Maybe Morey told Grunwald something during Camby negotiations then ambushed him with this.

In 3 years we'll have the answer to the following questions:

- Was Lin an MDA created flash in the pan?
- Was Lin a much more likeable Melo - someone who can only succeed with the rock in his hands? And therefore someone who could not co-exist with Melo? (like...STAT?)

- Will Felton come into camp in the best shape of his career?
- Was Felton an MDA created flash in the pan?

- Will this somehow lead to Chris Paul?
- Will this roster get us past the Heat or lead to one that does?

For now we're all just talkin out of our collective butts about how Lin is overrated or Felton is a fatso.

Keep calm and chive on.

I wanted Lin here and am still holding out that we somehow sign him, however, that Lin contract might take us out of the running to land Paul next summer....Cant see another team taking on that Lin contract.

Uptown wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:I love Lin and am SHOCKED that the same team that grossly overpaid for Jerome James, Jared Jeffries and Eddy Curry won't take a chance on a kid with potential who will make them tons of $. Perhaps his turnovers would have continuted and killed us against a team like the Heat that run on everything.

Maybe Morey told Grunwald something during Camby negotiations then ambushed him with this.

In 3 years we'll have the answer to the following questions:

- Was Lin an MDA created flash in the pan?
- Was Lin a much more likeable Melo - someone who can only succeed with the rock in his hands? And therefore someone who could not co-exist with Melo? (like...STAT?)

- Will Felton come into camp in the best shape of his career?
- Was Felton an MDA created flash in the pan?

- Will this somehow lead to Chris Paul?
- Will this roster get us past the Heat or lead to one that does?

For now we're all just talkin out of our collective butts about how Lin is overrated or Felton is a fatso.

Keep calm and chive on.

I wanted Lin here and am still holding out that we somehow sign him, however, that Lin contract might take us out of the running to land Paul next summer....Cant see another team taking on that Lin contract.

If he plays anything close to what he did during Linsanity over say the first half of an 82 game season we won't have any problem.

Caseloads wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CTKnicksfan wrote:Letting Lin walk for nothing is dumb. I'm ok if he's not part of the master plan, but then at least match and trade him on Dec 15th. The shine will still be on Linsanity, and there will still be interested teams that will take a chance on him even with the 3rd year balloon payment (The GSW for one, and maybe even Houston especially if they strike out on D12) At least get some picks/prospects out of him if you're not going to keep him.

Do you really think that contract is that tradeable? That 3rd yr of his contract would scare many-a-team off.

I am sure several teams would bite who couldn't get free agents to come there like Sacramento, etc - if you are under the cap you have to pay someone...

I don't think you can match a restricted FA and then trade him.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:I love Lin and am SHOCKED that the same team that grossly overpaid for Jerome James, Jared Jeffries and Eddy Curry won't take a chance on a kid with potential who will make them tons of $. Perhaps his turnovers would have continuted and killed us against a team like the Heat that run on everything.

Maybe Morey told Grunwald something during Camby negotiations then ambushed him with this.

In 3 years we'll have the answer to the following questions:

- Was Lin an MDA created flash in the pan?
- Was Lin a much more likeable Melo - someone who can only succeed with the rock in his hands? And therefore someone who could not co-exist with Melo? (like...STAT?)

- Will Felton come into camp in the best shape of his career?
- Was Felton an MDA created flash in the pan?

- Will this somehow lead to Chris Paul?
- Will this roster get us past the Heat or lead to one that does?

For now we're all just talkin out of our collective butts about how Lin is overrated or Felton is a fatso.

Keep calm and chive on.

I wanted Lin here and am still holding out that we somehow sign him, however, that Lin contract might take us out of the running to land Paul next summer....Cant see another team taking on that Lin contract.

If he plays anything close to what he did during Linsanity over say the first half of an 82 game season we won't have any problem.

Caseloads wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CTKnicksfan wrote:Letting Lin walk for nothing is dumb. I'm ok if he's not part of the master plan, but then at least match and trade him on Dec 15th. The shine will still be on Linsanity, and there will still be interested teams that will take a chance on him even with the 3rd year balloon payment (The GSW for one, and maybe even Houston especially if they strike out on D12) At least get some picks/prospects out of him if you're not going to keep him.

Do you really think that contract is that tradeable? That 3rd yr of his contract would scare many-a-team off.

I am sure several teams would bite who couldn't get free agents to come there like Sacramento, etc - if you are under the cap you have to pay someone...

I don't think you can match a restricted FA and then trade him.

can be moved after 90days or
bet. Dec - Jan 2013 is what i heard

smackeddog wrote:

PresIke wrote:b.s.

all the horrific contracts we've taken with a crap team for years, and one year of lin at a high rate, in the 3rd year of the deal is what we walk away from?

i thought it was okay to not worry for 3 years? folks were saying this was the 'problem' with novak's deal (that it's a 4 year deal), and some even argued it would be okay to match fields' offer for this same reason.

i will be infuriated if we let lin go for nothing.

This isn't a business decision, it's one of Dolans occasional 'it's a matter of principal' decisions and to heck with the consequences. remember back during the larry brown fiasco when Dolan suddenly decided after the first year he was firing him and wasn't going to pay him what he legally had to? And when he decided to trade Sprewell? And when he decided to trade Camby? It's like that. It's not about money.

+1 This is what I've been saying. This has nothing to do with improving our team or saving money, it's all about Dolan's ego.

nixluva wrote:

Uptown wrote:

nixluva wrote:This is a very strange set of issues.

1. I think Woody made it clear to Grunwald that he didn't feel Lin was the best PG for what he wanted to do.
If you remember Woody made several Disparaging remarks about Lin but walked those comments back. Woody is a LB disciple and the complete polar opposite of MDA.

2. Melo also tried to talk up Lin and make it seem like he was super supportive, but I think that was mostly because he saw how popular Lin was. I think Melo was actually really jealous of Lin and didn't like the MDA style which went thru Lin 1st and Melo 2nd. This gets back to Woody who I believe was brought in to be the future coach and Melo made sure that happened and pretty much was ELATED when MDA left and Woody started talking about going thru Melo.

3. Lin for his part probably saw the writing on the wall and did what was in his best interests. Why should Lin give up guaranteed money for the Knicks when Woody and Melo want to push him back to being serve it up to Melo and get out of the way PG? If i'm Lin I think i'd notice the diff between MDA and Woody in terms of support.

4. This is the right thing to do if you want to play a Pistons style of BB and not have a PG driven offense. All Woody knows is that Pistons style and he's seen it win so why would he want to do anything else??? Woody didn't want to play Teague in ATL and in much the same way he really didn't like Lin's game either. Woody has made a lot of pro Lin comments, but I've never really believed him. Also the way Grunwald built the team you can see that he was gearing it more towards Woody than MDA. That makes sense cuz i'm sure he heard from Dolan that MDA was not getting another extension. This is now a Ground n Pound team with a Ground n Pound Coach.

Talk about speculation!! Why the need to tear-down Woodson and Melo in order to prop Lin up? Everything Woodson and Melo have said about Lin has been positive yet you dont take them at there words and take the cynical approach.

What is your opinion on the first contract leaking and the Knicks making it clear that they would match? Then Lin fly's out to Vegas to renegotiate a new contract that Lin had to know would put the Knicks in a very tough Spot? Where was the loyality from Lin?

Yeah I pretty much don't believe Woody or Melo. I think they both had less love for Lin than they let on when Lin was the star of the show. As soon as MDA left Woody went right in on Lin's role and how he was gonna lean on Melo and STAT. Melo always says the right thing in public but his actions tell a different story. You know it's well documented how he dogged it for MDA and how he made disparaging remarks about MDA's offense. Soon as he gets Woody he's all in and goes ape nuts on D etc. You don't have to dig too deep to figure out how both men really feel about Lin.

Look the Knicks could decide to keep Lin, tho I doubt it, but I think Woody would prefer things the way they are with Kidd and Felton than Lin. He's NEVER liked PG's that play the way Lin does. He wants to play the way they did in Detroit and how he had things in ATL. That's fine if you want to go with a Melo Centric offense then you build towards that goal. What's the point of having Lin if you're going to shackle him and not let him be what he is, an attacking, ball dominant PG?

you're amazing man, young 'mature' man

All of a sudden all this Lin/Rocket fiasco is Carmelo (USA team current job) Anthony and Woody-woodson fault eh ?
amazing cant believe what we're posting