JohnStarksFan wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

JohnStarksFan wrote:

MSG3 wrote:We ran in to the NBA champs in the first round. And the defensive player of the year wasn't healthy until game 4, our best perimeter defender tore his ACL, we didn't have a PG and our star PF is a headcase who can't defend or sink a J anymore.

Even if we were 100% I don't know if we could've gotten past them. This year is going to tell whether we are a failure or this team can be a top 3 seed.

You know, I was making these excuses too, but now that I think about it, that just sound like these guys are WEAK. Hope they man up over the offseason and get in shape for a full 82.

I don't think these are exuses though. I'm frustrated as hell and was ready to write this team off. But look at the facts. We had ZERO depth and were injured. We lost to the Champs in 5....same as a healthy Thunder squad. Not saying we're as good as the Thunder, but a lot of things went wrong for us towards the end.

We have to stop expecting Melo to be LeBron. No one is. But can he be a Pierce or a Wade where he does everything he has to do to win? I think that's the question. He can score, he can defend and he can pass. But that desire to win and do those things has to be there 100% OF EVERY MINUTE HE'S ON THE FLOOR. I think the biggest change though has to come from Amar'e. If this duo is going to work he needs to learn to play both sides of the court in the psot. Rebound, defend, hit the J. He doesn't have to be highlight Amar'e for us to win. He is the one who needs to play smarter and better and different for the team to be a contender. We have more talent than any roster in the league except maybe for OKC. It's on Grunwald to tweak the roster and Woody to make it work to the players' strengths.

I want 2012-2013 to start tomorrow.

I hear you loud and clear.
You know, with Amare, it really is tough having him at the PF. There are a lot of PF's in the league much more athletic than him, and they pound him, slip by him, force him out of his area, allowing teams to get inside on us. His natural progression would be to move to the 5 at this stage in his career, like Garnett, but it's not happening with Tyson. Oh well.

I don't think it's a matter of athleticism. Amar'e is clearly getting older and more injury prone but he's still very athletic. It's just basketball IQ and defensive technique that he lacks. That can be taught. And I think that has to be the main focus for him and the coaching staff this off season. Hopefully his back is ok. And he must get that J back to where it was. Hell, even if it's close. His first year here I'd bet he was sinking those elbow jumpers at a 70% clip. I'd love if someone could dig up a stat on his jumper % that first year.

IrishKnickFan wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

JohnStarksFan wrote:

MSG3 wrote:We ran in to the NBA champs in the first round. And the defensive player of the year wasn't healthy until game 4, our best perimeter defender tore his ACL, we didn't have a PG and our star PF is a headcase who can't defend or sink a J anymore.

Even if we were 100% I don't know if we could've gotten past them. This year is going to tell whether we are a failure or this team can be a top 3 seed.

You know, I was making these excuses too, but now that I think about it, that just sound like these guys are WEAK. Hope they man up over the offseason and get in shape for a full 82.

I don't think these are exuses though. I'm frustrated as hell and was ready to write this team off. But look at the facts. We had ZERO depth and were injured. We lost to the Champs in 5....same as a healthy Thunder squad. Not saying we're as good as the Thunder, but a lot of things went wrong for us towards the end.

We have to stop expecting Melo to be LeBron. No one is. But can he be a Pierce or a Wade where he does everything he has to do to win? I think that's the question. He can score, he can defend and he can pass. But that desire to win and do those things has to be there 100% OF EVERY MINUTE HE'S ON THE FLOOR. I think the biggest change though has to come from Amar'e. If this duo is going to work he needs to learn to play both sides of the court in the psot. Rebound, defend, hit the J. He doesn't have to be highlight Amar'e for us to win. He is the one who needs to play smarter and better and different for the team to be a contender. We have more talent than any roster in the league except maybe for OKC. It's on Grunwald to tweak the roster and Woody to make it work to the players' strengths.

I want 2012-2013 to start tomorrow.

That has been my point. melo's DESIRE. I never said the guy wanst talented because in the last half of thes season he was playing better than anybody. However he can never seem to remain focused throughout the whole season and its not the coache's fault its his fault. Hopefully melo cant get his head straight for a whole season. So far the trade hant worked out yet hopefully the third year will be the charm

I agree. Focus is the thing. That's something he and Amar'e and a lot of other players on the team lack. And it is a personal challenge for everyone but the coaches also have to identify this as a problem and make them grind it out. This is something I think Spolestra doesn't get enough for. It's not easy to amnage the roster he has and keep them focussed.

Its a fun team. We'll watch the games. We'll argue.

JohnStarksFan wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

JohnStarksFan wrote:You know, with Amare, it really is tough having him at the PF. There are a lot of PF's in the league much more athletic than him, and they pound him, slip by him, force him out of his area, allowing teams to get inside on us. His natural progression would be to move to the 5 at this stage in his career, like Garnett, but it's not happening with Tyson. Oh well.

I don't think it's a matter of athleticism. Amar'e is clearly getting older and more injury prone but he's still very athletic. It's just basketball IQ and defensive technique that he lacks. That can be taught. And I think that has to be the main focus for him and the coaching staff this off season. Hopefully his back is ok. And he must get that J back to where it was. Hell, even if it's close. His first year here I'd bet he was sinking those elbow jumpers at a 70% clip. I'd love if someone could dig up a stat on his jumper % that first year.

It is part wearing down, part IQ IMO, I see your point tho. But you can't deny that he is at times robotic and clunky out there on D.

And no one hits mid-range shots at 70%. No one. But you're right, this team needs that shot back to be competitive.

I don't know man. He was automatic at the elbow in 2010-2011

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I think the Knicks gave up way too much for Melo. However, trades for superstars usually work out for the team that gets the superstar. I struggle with a lot of the posts here that are anti-Melo because I am not a huge fan of Melo but he is the best player on the team and I think there is too much blame placed on him. I think if a franchise trades for a star they embrace him and play to his strengths. I think next year might be the year to judge the trade. Also, Tyson came to NY because of Melo and Amare. Stars do bring stars so I don't think that aspect of the trade and having Melo should be underrated. Melo might be the Clyde to Michael however, which puts the Knicks in a bad position with LBJ in the East.

agree on all points and Melo is an uber talented player, but his game isnt going to bring playoff wins. People knocked MDAs style that it couldnt win a title, but damn if it didnt go deep into the playoffs year after year? Melo's style of play is so easy to defend its a joke.

IF

1) Melo takes a Paul Pierce role and plays hard when the ball ISNT in his hands
2) Jeremy Lin can give us 75 games next year without wearing down

The Knicks will be a top 3 seed next year.

IF

1) Melo pouts and does his normal thing when he the offense isnt run through him
2) Lin isnt a reliable starter because his over aggressive style has him hurt
3) forced to rely on backup quality PGs we play Melo ball and watch him pound the rock nightly

The Knicks will have a couple nice streaks, win about 45 games, be the 6th seed and lose in the first round to the Heat, Pacers or whoever is around

Time will tell but thats what I see.

Ouch. The truth stings sharply.

A healthy Lin is the Linchpin to all of this. He's got a bigger juice card than Melo. His jersey sells more. He has not failed yet. He has upside. He's a humble blue collar guy who while plays with some flash gives all credit to teammates. Coach also believes in him. Hes got a great work ethic. Can he stay healthy?

A healthy Lin is more important to this team than what Melo brings. Thats the truth

MSG3 wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

JohnStarksFan wrote:

MSG3 wrote:We ran in to the NBA champs in the first round. And the defensive player of the year wasn't healthy until game 4, our best perimeter defender tore his ACL, we didn't have a PG and our star PF is a headcase who can't defend or sink a J anymore.

Even if we were 100% I don't know if we could've gotten past them. This year is going to tell whether we are a failure or this team can be a top 3 seed.

You know, I was making these excuses too, but now that I think about it, that just sound like these guys are WEAK. Hope they man up over the offseason and get in shape for a full 82.

I don't think these are exuses though. I'm frustrated as hell and was ready to write this team off. But look at the facts. We had ZERO depth and were injured. We lost to the Champs in 5....same as a healthy Thunder squad. Not saying we're as good as the Thunder, but a lot of things went wrong for us towards the end.

We have to stop expecting Melo to be LeBron. No one is. But can he be a Pierce or a Wade where he does everything he has to do to win? I think that's the question. He can score, he can defend and he can pass. But that desire to win and do those things has to be there 100% OF EVERY MINUTE HE'S ON THE FLOOR. I think the biggest change though has to come from Amar'e. If this duo is going to work he needs to learn to play both sides of the court in the psot. Rebound, defend, hit the J. He doesn't have to be highlight Amar'e for us to win. He is the one who needs to play smarter and better and different for the team to be a contender. We have more talent than any roster in the league except maybe for OKC. It's on Grunwald to tweak the roster and Woody to make it work to the players' strengths.

I want 2012-2013 to start tomorrow.

That has been my point. melo's DESIRE. I never said the guy wanst talented because in the last half of thes season he was playing better than anybody. However he can never seem to remain focused throughout the whole season and its not the coache's fault its his fault. Hopefully melo cant get his head straight for a whole season. So far the trade hant worked out yet hopefully the third year will be the charm

I agree. Focus is the thing. That's something he and Amar'e and a lot of other players on the team lack. And it is a personal challenge for everyone but the coaches also have to identify this as a problem and make them grind it out. This is something I think Spolestra doesn't get enough for. It's not easy to amnage the roster he has and keep them focussed.

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I think the Knicks gave up way too much for Melo. However, trades for superstars usually work out for the team that gets the superstar. I struggle with a lot of the posts here that are anti-Melo because I am not a huge fan of Melo but he is the best player on the team and I think there is too much blame placed on him. I think if a franchise trades for a star they embrace him and play to his strengths. I think next year might be the year to judge the trade. Also, Tyson came to NY because of Melo and Amare. Stars do bring stars so I don't think that aspect of the trade and having Melo should be underrated. Melo might be the Clyde to Michael however, which puts the Knicks in a bad position with LBJ in the East.

agree on all points and Melo is an uber talented player, but his game isnt going to bring playoff wins. People knocked MDAs style that it couldnt win a title, but damn if it didnt go deep into the playoffs year after year? Melo's style of play is so easy to defend its a joke.

IF

1) Melo takes a Paul Pierce role and plays hard when the ball ISNT in his hands
2) Jeremy Lin can give us 75 games next year without wearing down

The Knicks will be a top 3 seed next year.

IF

1) Melo pouts and does his normal thing when he the offense isnt run through him
2) Lin isnt a reliable starter because his over aggressive style has him hurt
3) forced to rely on backup quality PGs we play Melo ball and watch him pound the rock nightly

The Knicks will have a couple nice streaks, win about 45 games, be the 6th seed and lose in the first round to the Heat, Pacers or whoever is around

Time will tell but thats what I see.

Ouch. The truth stings sharply.

at least we have the talent to be elite. Its a good start. We need a PG with strong leadership and I have no doubt Lin has those tools. I have many doubts he can stay healthy.

A healthy Lin is the Linchpin to all of this. He's got a bigger juice card than Melo. His jersey sells more. He has not failed yet. He has upside. He's a humble blue collar guy who while plays with some flash gives all credit to teammates. Coach also believes in him. Hes got a great work ethic. Can he stay healthy?

A healthy Lin is more important to this team than what Melo brings. Thats the truth

Half true. Lin has to be the one to direct all these moving parts. I have no doubts Melo can co-exist with Lin directing traffic, they did it for 7 games before Lin and Amare broke down. But the honus really is on Melo this upcoming year. This season is make or break, put up or shutup. If Melo can become the leader the Knicks want and need, then sky's the limit. Lin's a very nice young player, likeable, marketable, coachable etc. If Lin can play 70+ games and stay healthy for the playoffs, that'll be huge. Make no mistake, this is Melo's team, and they will only go as far as he'll take them.

was it Melo's team during Linsanity? I could not disagree more. If this team goes as far as Melo takes them it will be the same place Melo takes all his teams.. a decent record and a first round exit.

Expect Amare to bounce back. His back and legs looks good after he returned. He's the most pridefull guy on the roster and will be looking to make everyone forget he had the season he had last year.

Im sorry but if Lin is getting the ball to a healthy and motivated Amare (career 53% shooting) and Chandler (career 58%) the Knicks will be looking REALLY REALLY good.

I very much expect Melo to conform to what the TEAM needs. He already quit on the team and coach once. You dont survive a 2nd time. He will get traded

The real point i'm making isn't that Melo is as good as Lebron but that winning players take the reigns and lead the team. Lebron learned that from last year and went back to being the guy we saw for most of his career that could lift a weak team on his shoulders. Melo has to do that for a full season and if he had actually tried to take advantage of what MDA was trying to teach him, he could've been much more effective as a leader being able to lift his team on his shoulders by making them better and not just himself. Lebron makes his teammates better too and not just himself. Role players shoot better when they get the ball more regularly in expected situations and not just some random pass in a bad position. Lebron gets his role players going with good passing in their spots.

Lebron is a better passer mainly because he actually works on it and does it more. Melo has very good passing skills, but he hasn't made the mental commitment to passing 1st and then if nothing is there going for his own offense. He thinks in the reverse and that makes a huge difference. YOU WANNA KNOW WHY STAT AND MELO HAVEN'T CLICKED??? WELL THAT'S THE REASON!!! Melo has the ball and should be looking for his 2nd best mate. Lebron and Wade look for each other all the time. In a nutshell, Melo has to become a better teammate. He can't play like he did over the last month for an entire season. That's too physically demanding. It would've been much better had he mastered playing Point Forward and passing out of the post etc. This way he could get everyone involved and not just himself. Melo can't be "The Ball Stopper" anymore.

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:OK just switch out Lebron for Melo and nothing else and the Knicks would've had a much better record to start the year. MDA tried to have Melo play Point Forward and have the ball in his hands almost all the time. It should've been a huge boost to his career and i'm telling you now that if Lebron was given that role he would've taken to it like a fish in water. Instead Melo had one of his worst seasons of his career. There were times when you could see how well it could work, but Melo resisted rather than EMBRACE the role.

The real point i'm making isn't that Melo is as good as Lebron but that winning players take the reigns and lead the team. Lebron learned that from last year and went back to being the guy we saw for most of his career that could lift a weak team on his shoulders. Melo has to do that for a full season and if he had actually tried to take advantage of what MDA was trying to teach him, he could've been much more effective as a leader being able to lift his team on his shoulders by making them better and not just himself. Lebron makes his teammates better too and not just himself. Role players shoot better when they get the ball more regularly in expected situations and not just some random pass in a bad position. Lebron gets his role players going with good passing in their spots.

Lebron is a better passer mainly because he actually works on it and does it more. Melo has very good passing skills, but he hasn't made the mental commitment to passing 1st and then if nothing is there going for his own offense. He thinks in the reverse and that makes a huge difference. YOU WANNA KNOW WHY STAT AND MELO HAVEN'T CLICKED??? WELL THAT'S THE REASON!!! Melo has the ball and should be looking for his 2nd best mate. Lebron and Wade look for each other all the time. In a nutshell, Melo has to become a better teammate. He can't play like he did over the last month for an entire season. That's too physically demanding. It would've been much better had he mastered playing Point Forward and passing out of the post etc. This way he could get everyone involved and not just himself. Melo can't be "The Ball Stopper" anymore.

???

Lebron is basically a point guard ala Magic Johnson. He's been in that role since he was an embryo. He's been making no look passes and passes out of the post since ESPN's been following him in middle school. Not a good comparison really. Now, if you were to say Melo should work on passing out of the double team or making the extra pass from the mid post to Amare or Chandler, then I agree with you. But you can't compare Melo to Lebron, he'll never be a gifted passer on that level. Heck, you can't even compare Kobe or Durant to Lebron either. Nowitzki of last year is a better comparison, a scorer that learned to make the extra pass and trust his teammates better on the road to his chip.

You miss the point. The regular season was a chance for Melo to spend a lot of time working on his passing to his teammates and he basically resisted the role. The idea isn't that he'll be as great as Lebron, but that he can be MUCH improved and thus help his team to win games. The longer Melo plays that way the better he'd get. It's not like he's a horrible passer trying to change. Melo is actually a very good passer that could get better, which is why MDA tried to develop that skill. George Karl tried to get Melo to develop that skill as well and PJax suggested that he should also develop that skill. MDA was doing the right thing by his player and if Melo had embraced the role he'd could've made progress and the team as a whole would be better for it. It's about a winning style verses a selfish style.

IrishKnickFan wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:OK just switch out Lebron for Melo and nothing else and the Knicks would've had a much better record to start the year. MDA tried to have Melo play Point Forward and have the ball in his hands almost all the time. It should've been a huge boost to his career and i'm telling you now that if Lebron was given that role he would've taken to it like a fish in water. Instead Melo had one of his worst seasons of his career. There were times when you could see how well it could work, but Melo resisted rather than EMBRACE the role.

The real point i'm making isn't that Melo is as good as Lebron but that winning players take the reigns and lead the team. Lebron learned that from last year and went back to being the guy we saw for most of his career that could lift a weak team on his shoulders. Melo has to do that for a full season and if he had actually tried to take advantage of what MDA was trying to teach him, he could've been much more effective as a leader being able to lift his team on his shoulders by making them better and not just himself. Lebron makes his teammates better too and not just himself. Role players shoot better when they get the ball more regularly in expected situations and not just some random pass in a bad position. Lebron gets his role players going with good passing in their spots.

Lebron is a better passer mainly because he actually works on it and does it more. Melo has very good passing skills, but he hasn't made the mental commitment to passing 1st and then if nothing is there going for his own offense. He thinks in the reverse and that makes a huge difference. YOU WANNA KNOW WHY STAT AND MELO HAVEN'T CLICKED??? WELL THAT'S THE REASON!!! Melo has the ball and should be looking for his 2nd best mate. Lebron and Wade look for each other all the time. In a nutshell, Melo has to become a better teammate. He can't play like he did over the last month for an entire season. That's too physically demanding. It would've been much better had he mastered playing Point Forward and passing out of the post etc. This way he could get everyone involved and not just himself. Melo can't be "The Ball Stopper" anymore.

???

Lebron is basically a point guard ala Magic Johnson. He's been in that role since he was an embryo. He's been making no look passes and passes out of the post since ESPN's been following him in middle school. Not a good comparison really. Now, if you were to say Melo should work on passing out of the double team or making the extra pass from the mid post to Amare or Chandler, then I agree with you. But you can't compare Melo to Lebron, he'll never be a gifted passer on that level. Heck, you can't even compare Kobe or Durant to Lebron either. Nowitzki of last year is a better comparison, a scorer that learned to make the extra pass and trust his teammates better on the road to his chip.

You miss the point. The regular season was a chance for Melo to spend a lot of time working on his passing to his teammates and he basically resisted the role. The idea isn't that he'll be as great as Lebron, but that he can be MUCH improved and thus help his team to win games. The longer Melo plays that way the better he'd get. It's not like he's a horrible passer trying to change. Melo is actually a very good passer that could get better, which is why MDA tried to develop that skill. George Karl tried to get Melo to develop that skill as well and PJax suggested that he should also develop that skill. MDA was doing the right thing by his player and if Melo had embraced the role he'd could've made progress and the team as a whole would be better for it. It's about a winning style verses a selfish style.

Very Good Point. I mean its nit like MDA was the only one both George Karl and Phil felt the same way. Now melo still needs to be our guy when we need him but he nees start trusting the guys and see guys who are open

Isn't that what I just stated before in my post that Melo has to make the extra pass?

Jmpasq wrote:Trading for Melo was not a mistake at all. What did the Knicks give up that everyone is so upset over. Felton? low grade starting PG, Galo nice player but a Middle of the road to low grade starter, W Chandler a 7th man, Mozgov will be out of the NBA soon, Eddy Curry - Champion.
for the cap room the Knicks got Tyson Chandler - A top 5 center in the game and 1 of the best big man defenders in the NBA. Carmelo Anthony- 1 of the best pure scorers in the NBA and a Top 20 NBA player.If I needed 1 guy to take 1 shot to win a game it would be him.
Say what u want how this team is constructed but the Knicks got vastly more talented players then the 1's who left it isnt even close

Eventhough you are right about having the best talent in a short span. I still think they combined the wrong talent, which makes it even harder to gel, regardless of the individual talent. Our stars do not compliment each other. This is why we will be up and down all year, unless one of the stars makes some adjustments and they begin to gel, similar to Wade and Lebron. But nobody on our team (Melo or Stat) are willing to say what Wade has said many times. This is not my team, I'm just a role player supporting Lebron. He's batman, I'm robin. Until those roles are defined from the top down, we will continue to play good teams tough, and loose to bad teams easy. Those kind of statements will build chemistry and build championships.