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Lebron And Dwyane Are Just Getting In Sync, Amar'e and Carmelo Will Be Fine
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JohnStarksFan
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5/30/2012  2:37 PM
misterearl wrote:Excellent Point

nixluva wrote:We really didn't see a lot of STAT, Melo & Lin when they were all healthy. It could be really good, but we don't know, cuz it was all disconnected from the start.

nixluva - you are indeed Jedi. You understand that any basketball equation is composed of moving parts that can shift by addition or subtraction. If Amar'e and Carmelo have problems passin he ball what should we do... wail at he moon, or compliment them with guys who can move the rock at warp speed in their sleep?

The Knicks problem started in the backcourt with the indecision of Toney Douglas and finished with the futile wait for the great pumpkin.. I mean... Baron Davis. Jeremy Lin injected the team with a shot of adrenaline that was better than the best high in college. Once his legs healed, Iman Shumpert flashed more athletic ability and intensity than any Knicks yoot in recent memory.

Guards. The point being, it all starts in the backcourt and the backcourt will be fixed. Lin is a great place to start but there is more work to be done to develop two backcourt shift lines that can be trusted under pressure. Shump may not be ready until next May. The backcourt is wide open. We desperately need adroit ball handlers.

Forwards? Yes, Jared Jeffries is lovable but he is only an average (at best) passer. Josh Harrellson is s work in progress. Novak moves the crowd, but he is one-dimensional and would be wise to move better without the ball and work on his handle. Add a talented point forward like Lamar Odom and suddenly the floor becomes a playground of creativity and serendipity.

Let the auditions begin!

This is looking like truth to me misterearl.

Most of ball handling is physical, being able to hold onto the ball, dribble it, hand-eye coordination, all that.
But a lot of it, especially in the NBA, is knowing where your teammates will be, knowing what play is being run, watching a guy slip into a pick and roll and anticipating the play in progress, getting into good position. When that's happening good passes can happen. Of course, we don't have Lebron throwing one-touch, one-hand, cross court strikes, but no one else does either.

The Knicks had a tumultuous season, ups, downs, injuries, emergences, hopes, fears, inspirations, let-downs. It was very hard for the team and the organization to find traction. This was, of course, partly their own doing through previous trades and roster moves. But someone deserves some credit, because we want to KEEP 2 guys more than anyone else that were picked up off WAIVERS. Guys so used to sitting on the bench even they looked amazed on television to hit the big shots (Lin, Novak). Who knows how the team as a whole felt about this emergence. Add to the mix JR Smith, big persona, crazy game, questionable character, spotty performance. The whole game plan needed to be changed, or at least greatly adjusted. And then..

D'antoni quits and takes some others with him. Most of us are probably happy about this, but that's a lot of shaking up to do. We get an interim coach, an interim GM, and a whole of press/accusations/expectations. Now more changes to the rotations, more changes to practice, shifting egos on the team, new guys sharing the spot light and walking into practice having just had a conversation with their agent about the millions they will be making next year AND the year after that.

I say all this to add that a lot of the ability to make good decisions on the court come with preparation, reading the defense, and trusting your teammates. And that is going to come with time.

GIVE THIS CLUB TIME.

AUTOADVERT
JohnStarksFan
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5/30/2012  2:39 PM
JohnStarksFan wrote:
GIVE THIS CLUB TIME.

oh.... and at least one more Guard with natural ball handling ability.

IrishKnickFan
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5/30/2012  5:38 PM
JohnStarksFan wrote:
JohnStarksFan wrote:
GIVE THIS CLUB TIME.

oh.... and at least one more Guard with natural ball handling ability.

The problem is that the "give this club time" stuff might apply to a team like the Thunder who are young and have had more success. Lets face it Melo,Amare,and Tyson arent getting any younger so we need to win within the next 2-3 years
knicks1248
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5/30/2012  8:06 PM
IrishKnickFan wrote:
JohnStarksFan wrote:
JohnStarksFan wrote:
GIVE THIS CLUB TIME.

oh.... and at least one more Guard with natural ball handling ability.

The problem is that the "give this club time" stuff might apply to a team like the Thunder who are young and have had more success. Lets face it Melo,Amare,and Tyson arent getting any younger so we need to win within the next 2-3 years

I can't figure out why ppl keep comparing melo and amre to wade and james. There's been so many super stars that joined talents and had success..

we have been plagued by injuries the last 2 playoff runs to our PG..Melo is not going to do it by himself or with just amare..

Bron and wade are ball handlers who are athletic and fast, there essentially big guards who can play off each other with ease and create for others.

Melo and Amare are fwds and Centers who don't have the same game at all, there special in there own way, there both athletic a bit fast for the size, but they are not ball handlers and really require a pg to get them easy shots..Something they have yet to experince for more the 10 games since they came together..

ES
IrishKnickFan
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5/30/2012  9:25 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
IrishKnickFan wrote:
JohnStarksFan wrote:
JohnStarksFan wrote:
GIVE THIS CLUB TIME.

oh.... and at least one more Guard with natural ball handling ability.

The problem is that the "give this club time" stuff might apply to a team like the Thunder who are young and have had more success. Lets face it Melo,Amare,and Tyson arent getting any younger so we need to win within the next 2-3 years

I can't figure out why ppl keep comparing melo and amre to wade and james. There's been so many super stars that joined talents and had success..

we have been plagued by injuries the last 2 playoff runs to our PG..Melo is not going to do it by himself or with just amare..

Bron and wade are ball handlers who are athletic and fast, there essentially big guards who can play off each other with ease and create for others.

Melo and Amare are fwds and Centers who don't have the same game at all, there special in there own way, there both athletic a bit fast for the size, but they are not ball handlers and really require a pg to get them easy shots..Something they have yet to experince for more the 10 games since they came together..

i didnt start this topic im just answering the question fairly tahts all. Im as big of knicks fan as there is but i hold my team accountable and dont give excuses. They now have a pg in lin that can get them the ball but they can just do iso they have to make adjustments as well and this year melo didnt want to do that. Now I have said many times that he has the ability to do that but his ego gets in the way man times so next year hopefully he will change that
misterearl
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5/31/2012  8:30 AM
Lightning In A Bottle

IrishKnickFan wrote:They now have a pg in lin that can get them the ball but they can just do iso they have to make adjustments as well and this year melo didnt want to do that. Now I have said many times that he has the ability to do that but his ego gets in the way man times so next year hopefully he will change that

IKF - frankly, we do not know what we have in Jeremy Lin.

Do we have a pugnacious, spine chilling guard who dropped 38 against the Lakers and shamed the Mavs on national television?

Or do we have a fragile, injury prone guy (yet to play a full pro season) who turns the ball over by the bushel?

once a knick always a knick
KnicksFE
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5/31/2012  9:22 AM
IrishKnickFan wrote:
misterearl wrote:"comparing a vovlo to a mercedes"

IrishKnickFan wrote:Ya i mean you cant compare melo/amare to lebron/wade because its like comparing a vovlo to a mercedes. I hate Lebron and wade but i would rather have those two than the two stars we have now tahts for damn sure

IKF - it is not whether you would prefer to have DWade and Lebron. The fact remains that both have admitted, after almost 200 games, they are just now starting to gel.

How many games should it take our imperfect talent to mesh?

Lebron and Wade went to the finals last year so even though they didnt gel they still did pretty damn good. In two years our two stars have won a total of 1 playoff game. As big of fan as i am i cant give them the benefit of the doubt until i see them do it on the court

+1000000000000

Totally true, they went to the finals last year and most likely will go again this year, if that’s not gelling already than I don’t know what it is.

JohnStarksFan
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5/31/2012  9:22 AM
IrishKnickFan wrote:
JohnStarksFan wrote:
JohnStarksFan wrote:
GIVE THIS CLUB TIME.

oh.... and at least one more Guard with natural ball handling ability.

The problem is that the "give this club time" stuff might apply to a team like the Thunder who are young and have had more success. Lets face it Melo,Amare,and Tyson arent getting any younger so we need to win within the next 2-3 years

In NY Knicks land, 2-3 years is a ****ing eternity. So yea, that kind of time.

VCoug
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5/31/2012  10:27 AM
IrishKnickFan wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
RonRon wrote:
misterearl wrote:AnubisADL - everyone knows Lebron and DWade can operate as solo acts. That is not news. However, this thesis offers that they need each other to make the team better... and to win.

Winning is the bottom line.

Carmelo and Amar'e have their limitations, which have been well documented. Big deal. They may simply need to find the areas where they can compliment the other... to make the team better. It could be so simple as playing with their heads up. Selfless.

That is on both ends. If Carmelo has flashed a determination to play defense, perhaps Amar'e will get the message and join the fun. They don't need to be "in sync" because this ain't coordinated swimming. They need to be attentive and more alert. Move without the ball and be ready for the pass.

Go fast when the opportunity presents itself. Lead by example. Dare the other guys to keep up.

It isn't just about Melo and Amare, we have to include Tyson Chandler, and even Lin.
The thing is, Melo is not an elite, in the same bracket as Wade and Lebron.
Neither are players that move well off the ball, with poor defense, and do not have the ability to penetrate without the handle, and speed/quickness to do so.
He does not possess the handle, penetration, versatility, defense, and physical skills (athleticism, speed/ quickness) as an elite has.
He is a high volume scorer, that likes to produce STATS, which are very misleading because it kills team chemistry and doesn't allow the team to get in rhythm when he goes ISo.
Whenever he touches the ball, our opponents are ready to get in rebounding position, and get ready for a fast break if he misses, because chances of him taking a bad % shot is very high. It doesn't help that he cannot post up, because Amare and Tyson Chandler takes up the space, as they will be left open if they are trying to spread the floor.
Their guys will cheat and leave them for the shot. One of them could be used as the player that sets the PnR, but one *usually Amare* will be used to spread the floor in which he has trouble getting his shot off. It hurts significantly, when neither has a post game, and don't even fight for post position.

Amare is no where near those guys, he is probably closer to the half stars like Josh Smith, with less overall skills, with only one skill (dunking).
He struggles playing at PF, because PF's match up with his speed/quickness, and athleticism, especially with Tyson Chandler's limitations on the offensive end.
He has played great for much of his career playing the "center" while he is quicker/faster and usually much more athletic than a Center.
The center usually has to give him the shot, if not, he can blow right by him and dunk.
While at PF, the opponents can keep up with him, while the Center is ready to help once he gets in the paint, because he only has one move, often forcing it in for a blocked shot or TO. Amare does try to move the ball, but with Melo going 1v1 so much, once he touches the ball, it means less shots for anyone on the team, including him.
He is been reduced from Alpha dog from the team, loss players that were all versatile, have good all round skills, following the game plans, and were about moving it to the open man.
Look at many games in which he has VERY little shot attempts because when he moves the ball, he won't get it back, leading to a Melo bad shot, or JR Smith bad shot, because they are the only ones that have the ability to create their own shots, with the lack of penetration and facilitating guards. His defense is a big weak link, while unable to defend his position, and requiring much help form Tyson Chandler, while when Chandler helps him or someone else, NO one, including Amare can cover for Tyson.

During Linsanity, the team used Lin's ability to penetrate to initiate the offense, and players that cut, were left open when Lin broke the opponents defense down, were rewarded with the basketball. We played without Amare, and Melo, with 2nd unit players, which are much less skilled than these "stars". They played good team defense and were all on the same page, moving the ball to whoever was open. There were much more screens set, aside from the PnR, other picks were used, cutters, movement off the ball, and plays used that used all players on the floor as an option/threat. They might not hit the shot but they all got back and played good defense, while giving much effort.
Our rotation usually included a 8 man rotation of, with mainly players that were all either good on defense or offense, but played a much more balanced game.


Lin/JR/ Baron Davis/ Bibby
Iman/ Fields/ Baron
Fields/ Novak
Novak/ Jeffries
Tyson Chandler/ Jeffries

If melo is not elite, then i don't know what elite is. He may shoot in volumes, but he also make scoring look so easy, he's a good rebounder, and solid passer ( when ever he decides) more clutch then bron and wade put together, and plays good defense(when ever he decides)And in all reality, no one can guard him one on one not even your bruce bowen 2.0..when he's off, it's usually him rushing shots, it has nothing to do with who's guarding him.

Elite is a guy that can that can play consistently great and get his team far in the playoffs. Now i agree melo when he is on is unstoppable but melo is not always like that. Now guys like lebron kobe nash and even dwight are elite guys because all of them have led their team to the finals even when they dotn have that much talent around them. Even though im a diehard knicks fan and dislike thgose vguys i mentioned i have to be fair

Nash has never been to the Finals.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
VCoug
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5/31/2012  10:34 AM
How come everyone here keeps on talking about our window being 2-3 years? Melo, Amare, and Tyson are 28, 29, and 29. We also have 23 year old Jeremy Lin. Six years from now these guys will be 34, 35, 35, and 29. The big 4 on the Celtics are Rondo 26, Pierce 34, Allen 36, Garnett 36. Why is our window only 2-3 years?
Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
ChuckBuck
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5/31/2012  10:39 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/31/2012  10:40 AM
VCoug wrote:How come everyone here keeps on talking about our window being 2-3 years? Melo, Amare, and Tyson are 28, 29, and 29. We also have 23 year old Jeremy Lin. Six years from now these guys will be 34, 35, 35, and 29. The big 4 on the Celtics are Rondo 26, Pierce 34, Allen 36, Garnett 36. Why is our window only 2-3 years?

Probably due to their "primes" being now as well as those 3 eating up most of the salary cap. So for better or worse, this is the core that will either make or break us for a chip run for the duration of their 3 contracts, with maybe Lin and Shumps on top of these 3 players, add or subtract some role players here and there.

nixluva
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5/31/2012  11:28 AM
The Knicks will be good for a good while. Lin, Shump, Melo are young enough to form a good core for years. Tyson and STAT being somewhat of a question with health issues over the years, one of them may not be able to last until 35, but KG is still humming along and guys like Duncan and Camby have managed to have good long careers. STAT will be going into full KG mode now, with his mid-range jumper.

Look in truth the most important thing is to basically do what the Spurs do and find hidden gems. Role players that can perform at a good level. Grunwald is the most important guy in the world for the Knicks. Filling out the roster with good role players is almost an art. That money ball style has not been used effectively by teams in the NBA, but now out of necessity the Knicks have no choice but to do it. Use the D Leagues, Waiver Wires, Undrafted and foreign players, Rec Leagues, Rucker Park, YMCA LOL.

misterearl
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5/31/2012  12:06 PM
In Glen Grunwald We Trust

"Give Me Your Tired Huddled Point Guards, Yearning To Run With Jeremy..."

(the bootleg tapes)

D Leagues - Ime Udoka

Waiver Wires - Matt Barnes, Jared Jeffries, Steve Novak, Jeremy Lin

Undrafted - Anthony Mason, Matt Carroll

International - Timofey Mosgov

Rec League - John Starks

Rucker Park - Skip To My Lou

YMCA - let's not get crazy

once a knick always a knick
JohnStarksFan
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5/31/2012  12:09 PM
VCoug wrote:How come everyone here keeps on talking about our window being 2-3 years? Melo, Amare, and Tyson are 28, 29, and 29. We also have 23 year old Jeremy Lin. Six years from now these guys will be 34, 35, 35, and 29. The big 4 on the Celtics are Rondo 26, Pierce 34, Allen 36, Garnett 36. Why is our window only 2-3 years?

The "window" is the time needed to produce serious playoff contention from the club or it gets blown up. You're right, things go in our favor and the guys play great together this could be something special for many more years than the "window"

Bonn1997
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5/31/2012  2:11 PM
VCoug wrote:How come everyone here keeps on talking about our window being 2-3 years? Melo, Amare, and Tyson are 28, 29, and 29. We also have 23 year old Jeremy Lin. Six years from now these guys will be 34, 35, 35, and 29. The big 4 on the Celtics are Rondo 26, Pierce 34, Allen 36, Garnett 36. Why is our window only 2-3 years?

The average player statistically peaks at 24 to 25 and has a sharp decline at 30. We can find rare exceptions but forget about how many people are out of the league at age 30 or still in the league but much less effective than at 24.
VCoug
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5/31/2012  5:23 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:How come everyone here keeps on talking about our window being 2-3 years? Melo, Amare, and Tyson are 28, 29, and 29. We also have 23 year old Jeremy Lin. Six years from now these guys will be 34, 35, 35, and 29. The big 4 on the Celtics are Rondo 26, Pierce 34, Allen 36, Garnett 36. Why is our window only 2-3 years?

The average player statistically peaks at 24 to 25 and has a sharp decline at 30. We can find rare exceptions but forget about how many people are out of the league at age 30 or still in the league but much less effective than at 24.

I don't know where you're getting your information from but that's not what I've read. What I've read states that players tend to peak between 26 to 28 after which the plateau for several years until their production starts to drop around 32 or 33. Thanks to improvements in medicine, players have been able to extend their primes until later in their careers. Barring any catastrophic injuries, there's no reason to believe that our big 3 shouldn't be effective for at least the next 6 years.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
Anji
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5/31/2012  5:34 PM
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:How come everyone here keeps on talking about our window being 2-3 years? Melo, Amare, and Tyson are 28, 29, and 29. We also have 23 year old Jeremy Lin. Six years from now these guys will be 34, 35, 35, and 29. The big 4 on the Celtics are Rondo 26, Pierce 34, Allen 36, Garnett 36. Why is our window only 2-3 years?

The average player statistically peaks at 24 to 25 and has a sharp decline at 30. We can find rare exceptions but forget about how many people are out of the league at age 30 or still in the league but much less effective than at 24.

I don't know where you're getting your information from but that's not what I've read. What I've read states that players tend to peak between 26 to 28 after which the plateau for several years until their production starts to drop around 32 or 33. Thanks to improvements in medicine, players have been able to extend their primes until later in their careers. Barring any catastrophic injuries, there's no reason to believe that our big 3 shouldn't be effective for at least the next 6 years.


The problem with stats like this is an honest look would indicate how many many years the players are in the league. You are likely citing a study that is of players who play in the league for 5-7 years plus, IE good players.

Bonn is likely citing a study that is lumping in every 10 day contract/draft pick/end of bench player that has every made the league.

"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
Bonn1997
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5/31/2012  5:38 PM
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:How come everyone here keeps on talking about our window being 2-3 years? Melo, Amare, and Tyson are 28, 29, and 29. We also have 23 year old Jeremy Lin. Six years from now these guys will be 34, 35, 35, and 29. The big 4 on the Celtics are Rondo 26, Pierce 34, Allen 36, Garnett 36. Why is our window only 2-3 years?

The average player statistically peaks at 24 to 25 and has a sharp decline at 30. We can find rare exceptions but forget about how many people are out of the league at age 30 or still in the league but much less effective than at 24.

I don't know where you're getting your information from but that's not what I've read. What I've read states that players tend to peak between 26 to 28 after which the plateau for several years until their production starts to drop around 32 or 33. Thanks to improvements in medicine, players have been able to extend their primes until later in their careers. Barring any catastrophic injuries, there's no reason to believe that our big 3 shouldn't be effective for at least the next 6 years.


David Berri has the wins produced scores in Stumbling on Wins. WP is the best validated statistical assessment of players, although win shares is good too.
Bonn1997
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5/31/2012  5:38 PM
Anji wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
VCoug wrote:How come everyone here keeps on talking about our window being 2-3 years? Melo, Amare, and Tyson are 28, 29, and 29. We also have 23 year old Jeremy Lin. Six years from now these guys will be 34, 35, 35, and 29. The big 4 on the Celtics are Rondo 26, Pierce 34, Allen 36, Garnett 36. Why is our window only 2-3 years?

The average player statistically peaks at 24 to 25 and has a sharp decline at 30. We can find rare exceptions but forget about how many people are out of the league at age 30 or still in the league but much less effective than at 24.

I don't know where you're getting your information from but that's not what I've read. What I've read states that players tend to peak between 26 to 28 after which the plateau for several years until their production starts to drop around 32 or 33. Thanks to improvements in medicine, players have been able to extend their primes until later in their careers. Barring any catastrophic injuries, there's no reason to believe that our big 3 shouldn't be effective for at least the next 6 years.


The problem with stats like this is an honest look would indicate how many many years the players are in the league. You are likely citing a study that is of players who play in the league for 5-7 years plus, IE good players.

Bonn is likely citing a study that is lumping in every 10 day contract/draft pick/end of bench player that has every made the league.


Read the book so you don't have to guess what Bonn is likely citing.
misterearl
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6/1/2012  12:38 PM
Who cares about average peak of career production?

Somebody forgot to remind countless players like Tim Duncan, Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett that age matters. Age ain't nothing but a number.

The only thing that matters is that team mates come together at the right time to trust each other. The rest takes care of itslef.

No statistic ever predicted the future.

once a knick always a knick
Lebron And Dwyane Are Just Getting In Sync, Amar'e and Carmelo Will Be Fine

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