mrKnickShot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Nalod wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Nalod wrote:Jabbar
Wilt
Russell
shaq
Miken
Reed
Hakeem
Walton
David robinson
Moses Malone
Wes Unseld

These guys are all MVP's and have championships. I assume 5 positions and each one gets 10 to make a top 50.
Ewing is HOF and a great player, but not top 50. No season MVP and not bling.

Your criteria is pretty silly. How many HOF did these guys play with when they won a ship? As for MVP.....it's a subjective popularity vote by the writers....and one good season does not make an NBA career. Ask yourself where would patrick be picked on this list if you were starting a league. He would be ahead of Unseld, Malone, Walton and Reed.

Knicks went to conf finals a few times, were contenders for many years and went to the finals. Its not like he played on bad teams.

Perhaps you can take out any one of three and insert Patrick.

But, he would be the lone player without an MVP and without a championship. He would be the anamoly.

How would Patrick be today? Slow. League is differnt now than 20 years ago.

Not sure how Patrick would fair. Modern medicine would help as would it help Walton.

Walton had a brief career in comparison but he has an MVP and a ring. Walton was Amazing! He ran, passed, shot, played defense,rebounded, blocked shots, he was the whole package. If you look at his roster on the year they won their championship you'll find no stars or HOF players. What he did with that team was a masterpiece season.

Unseld was ROY, MVP and has a ring. Respect earned! Of course Ewing was a better player than Unseld. But how do you measure success? Invidual awards? Banners on the ceiling? For years the big man was the MVP of most teams. You won with a great center.

Moses Malone is a three time MVP. HOw do you put Ewing ahead of him? Because he was a knick and you love him?

Willis? Regular season award. In the era of the big men that year he had to deal with Unseld, Kareem and Wilt. Back then they played each other a lot more (less teams). In that era, you did not win without a big man. MVP is not the "best player award" but "Most Valuable". Kareem as a rookie put up sick numbers that year.

Timmy Duncan has played the 5 also and he could easy be on my list. Jack Sikma has a ring and was an allstar. Not on the list.
Elvin Hayes played some 5, but not on his championship team. Elvin was amazing. Robert Parish was a great HOF center with multiple rings. No MVP. No place on my list. Ewing was a better player.

So its not like im placing just championships or just MVP as the criteria. Both.

MVP is not a popularity contest nor a freak occurance. Its sometimes honorary but you need a body of work to back it up to get that honor.

Is my list "silly"? I give my critieria and reasons. I challange anyone to put up their top 10 and the criteria used.

Gotta pay respect to the old era because those guys got it done.

There are always reasons why teams and players don't knotch up. Ewing does not step on the court against miami during the "fight" perhaps we win that year. One step and Maybe ewing is on the list. One dunk instead of a finger roll, Maybe he is on the list.

Ewings knees kept him from the finger roll. Or was it his shoulder? INjuries play a big part. Sam Bowie is not on the list nor Ralph Sampson. Maybe if not injured one or both build better careers. Sampson was amazing for his size! Sampson was also better than Ewing but his injuries put a very early ceiling on his career.

Every man on my list has BOTH at least one MVP and at least Ring.

Ewing has NEITHER.

Its my list. Nobody is preventing anyone from posting their own.

always a fun discussion.

I understand that David Robinson technically fulfills your criteria, but I thought everybody agreed that he wasn't really MVP in 1995, especially after Hakeem Olajuwon completely annihilated him in the playoffs that year. Also, Robinson's two rings came at the end of his career when he was playing with a better player in Tim Duncan; Ewing never had that luxury.

Robinson was the best defensive center I have seen.

Really? I'd put him behind Shaq and Olajuwon definitely, and maybe Mutumbo, Alonzo Mourning, and Dwight Howard. And those are just centers, I can think of other big men (Rodman) and wings (Lebron) who I consider better defensively than Robinson.

Defensive Player of the Year Winners

2010-11 Dwight Howard
2009-10 Dwight Howard
2008-09 Dwight Howard
2007-08 Kevin Garnett
2006-07 Marcus Camby
2005-06 Ben Wallace
2004-05 Ben Wallace
2003-04 Ron Artest
2002-03 Ben Wallace
2001-02 Ben Wallace
2000-01 Dikembe Mutombo
1999-00 Alonzo Mourning
1998-99 Alonzo Mourning
1997-98 Dikembe Mutombo
1996-97 Dikembe Mutombo
1995-96 Gary Payton
1994-95 Dikembe Mutombo
1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon
1991-92 David Robinson
1990-91 Dennis Rodman
1989-90 Dennis Rodman
1988-89 Mark Eaton
1987-88 Michael Jordan
1986-87 Michael Cooper
1985-86 Alvin Robertson
1984-85 Mark Eaton
1983-84 Sidney Moncrief
1982-83 Sidney Moncrief

Now filter out MVP Centers:

Just one. Robinson.

The admiral did not ride the bench or anyone coat tails in route to his championship.

He was a defensive force.

MVP, Championship ring, Defensive player of the year winner are three awards Ewing does not have.

Mourning has a ring but not MVP, and he was a reserve to Shaq on Miami's team.

Mourning not on top 10 list either.

ChuckBuck wrote:

VCoug wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Nalod wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Nalod wrote:Jabbar
Wilt
Russell
shaq
Miken
Reed
Hakeem
Walton
David robinson
Moses Malone
Wes Unseld

These guys are all MVP's and have championships. I assume 5 positions and each one gets 10 to make a top 50.
Ewing is HOF and a great player, but not top 50. No season MVP and not bling.

Your criteria is pretty silly. How many HOF did these guys play with when they won a ship? As for MVP.....it's a subjective popularity vote by the writers....and one good season does not make an NBA career. Ask yourself where would patrick be picked on this list if you were starting a league. He would be ahead of Unseld, Malone, Walton and Reed.

Knicks went to conf finals a few times, were contenders for many years and went to the finals. Its not like he played on bad teams.

Perhaps you can take out any one of three and insert Patrick.

But, he would be the lone player without an MVP and without a championship. He would be the anamoly.

How would Patrick be today? Slow. League is differnt now than 20 years ago.

Not sure how Patrick would fair. Modern medicine would help as would it help Walton.

Walton had a brief career in comparison but he has an MVP and a ring. Walton was Amazing! He ran, passed, shot, played defense,rebounded, blocked shots, he was the whole package. If you look at his roster on the year they won their championship you'll find no stars or HOF players. What he did with that team was a masterpiece season.

Unseld was ROY, MVP and has a ring. Respect earned! Of course Ewing was a better player than Unseld. But how do you measure success? Invidual awards? Banners on the ceiling? For years the big man was the MVP of most teams. You won with a great center.

Moses Malone is a three time MVP. HOw do you put Ewing ahead of him? Because he was a knick and you love him?

Willis? Regular season award. In the era of the big men that year he had to deal with Unseld, Kareem and Wilt. Back then they played each other a lot more (less teams). In that era, you did not win without a big man. MVP is not the "best player award" but "Most Valuable". Kareem as a rookie put up sick numbers that year.

Timmy Duncan has played the 5 also and he could easy be on my list. Jack Sikma has a ring and was an allstar. Not on the list.
Elvin Hayes played some 5, but not on his championship team. Elvin was amazing. Robert Parish was a great HOF center with multiple rings. No MVP. No place on my list. Ewing was a better player.

So its not like im placing just championships or just MVP as the criteria. Both.

MVP is not a popularity contest nor a freak occurance. Its sometimes honorary but you need a body of work to back it up to get that honor.

Is my list "silly"? I give my critieria and reasons. I challange anyone to put up their top 10 and the criteria used.

Gotta pay respect to the old era because those guys got it done.

There are always reasons why teams and players don't knotch up. Ewing does not step on the court against miami during the "fight" perhaps we win that year. One step and Maybe ewing is on the list. One dunk instead of a finger roll, Maybe he is on the list.

Ewings knees kept him from the finger roll. Or was it his shoulder? INjuries play a big part. Sam Bowie is not on the list nor Ralph Sampson. Maybe if not injured one or both build better careers. Sampson was amazing for his size! Sampson was also better than Ewing but his injuries put a very early ceiling on his career.

Every man on my list has BOTH at least one MVP and at least Ring.

Ewing has NEITHER.

Its my list. Nobody is preventing anyone from posting their own.

always a fun discussion.

I understand that David Robinson technically fulfills your criteria, but I thought everybody agreed that he wasn't really MVP in 1995, especially after Hakeem Olajuwon completely annihilated him in the playoffs that year. Also, Robinson's two rings came at the end of his career when he was playing with a better player in Tim Duncan; Ewing never had that luxury.

Robinson was the best defensive center I have seen.

Really? I'd put him behind Shaq and Olajuwon definitely, and maybe Mutumbo, Alonzo Mourning, and Dwight Howard. And those are just centers, I can think of other big men (Rodman) and wings (Lebron) who I consider better defensively than Robinson.

Olajuwon was the greatest defensive center of all time. It's not even a question.

Top 10 in Blocks and Steals

Rank Player BLK
1. Hakeem Olajuwon* 3830
2. Dikembe Mutombo 3289
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3189
4. Artis Gilmore* 3178
5. Mark Eaton 3064
6. David Robinson* 2954
7. Patrick Ewing* 2894
8. Shaquille O'Neal 2732
9. Tree Rollins 2542
10. Tim Duncan 2463

Rank Player STL
1. John Stockton* 3265
2. Jason Kidd 2559
3. Michael Jordan* 2514
4. Gary Payton 2445
5. Maurice Cheeks 2310
6. Scottie Pippen* 2307
7. Julius Erving* 2272
8. Clyde Drexler* 2207
9. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2162
10. Alvin Robertson 2112

The steals figure is amazing because the list is guards and small forwards and one center!

I SUBJECTIVELY would put Russell ahead of Hakeem. Its too bad they did not keep all the stats back in the day.

Artis Gilmore should be in the HOF.

Nalod wrote:all in good company......

Defensive Player of the Year Winners

2010-11 Dwight Howard
2009-10 Dwight Howard
2008-09 Dwight Howard
2007-08 Kevin Garnett
2006-07 Marcus Camby
2005-06 Ben Wallace
2004-05 Ben Wallace
2003-04 Ron Artest
2002-03 Ben Wallace
2001-02 Ben Wallace
2000-01 Dikembe Mutombo
1999-00 Alonzo Mourning
1998-99 Alonzo Mourning
1997-98 Dikembe Mutombo
1996-97 Dikembe Mutombo
1995-96 Gary Payton
1994-95 Dikembe Mutombo
1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon
1991-92 David Robinson
1990-91 Dennis Rodman
1989-90 Dennis Rodman
1988-89 Mark Eaton
1987-88 Michael Jordan
1986-87 Michael Cooper
1985-86 Alvin Robertson
1984-85 Mark Eaton
1983-84 Sidney Moncrief
1982-83 Sidney Moncrief

Now filter out MVP Centers:

Just one. Robinson.

The admiral did not ride the bench or anyone coat tails in route to his championship.

He was a defensive force.

MVP, Championship ring, Defensive player of the year winner are three awards Ewing does not have.

Mourning has a ring but not MVP, and he was a reserve to Shaq on Miami's team.

Mourning not on top 10 list either.

Olajuwon was DPOY twice in 92-93 and 93-94 and was MVP in 93-94. Garnett has also won DPOY and MVP, though he isn't a full-time center.

The admiral did not ride the bench or anyone coat tails in route to his championship.

Yes he did, he was Scottie Pippen to Duncan's Jordan in 99 and was completely washed up for their second one in 2003.

Nalod wrote:99 he was still very good, and remember Duncan was still quite young.

03 he was 37, avg'd 26 min per game and almost 8 rebounds per game. His rebound rate per game as inline with his career.

No doubt his stats were falling but he started, and played 64 games.

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ROBINDA01

at ages 35 and 36 ewing had miserable injury prone years. His last season with knicks was very good and I get why he wanted to continue. He cambe back after two brief seasons and im sure it took some hard work to do so.

The one year in seattle was statistically good but the following in orlando he avged just 13 min per game.

In hindsight we all know he should have retired a knick but those two season playing just 26 and 38 games left him wanting. His return in 99-00 he played 79 games at age 37 and avged 15 ppg!

He was still good in 99, but that was Duncan's team. And I remember watching him in 03, he was a shell of himself.

He was a warrior and knick great and true Hall of fame great.

Just not top ten.

I didn't mean to thread-jack with a discussion of David Robinson; I believe Robinson is a top-10 center and arguably better than Ewing (though he didn't deserve MVP in 95). My biggest issue with your list is Bill Walton; I don't care how great he might have been if he'd stayed healthy. He only played 468 games over a 10-year career. Even his MVP year he only played in 58 games and, being that it was 1977-78, I'm going to guess that race played at least a partial role in why he won. If you were to switch them, and put Ewing on those Portland teams and Walton on NY, I would say that we would be worse for that.

VCoug wrote:

Nalod wrote:
99 he was still very good, and remember Duncan was still quite young.

03 he was 37, avg'd 26 min per game and almost 8 rebounds per game. His rebound rate per game as inline with his career.

No doubt his stats were falling but he started, and played 64 games.

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ROBINDA01

at ages 35 and 36 ewing had miserable injury prone years. His last season with knicks was very good and I get why he wanted to continue. He cambe back after two brief seasons and im sure it took some hard work to do so.

The one year in seattle was statistically good but the following in orlando he avged just 13 min per game.

In hindsight we all know he should have retired a knick but those two season playing just 26 and 38 games left him wanting. His return in 99-00 he played 79 games at age 37 and avged 15 ppg!

He was still good in 99, but that was Duncan's team. And I remember watching him in 03, he was a shell of himself.

He was a warrior and knick great and true Hall of fame great.

Just not top ten.

I didn't mean to thread-jack with a discussion of David Robinson; I believe Robinson is a top-10 center and arguably better than Ewing (though he didn't deserve MVP in 95). My biggest issue with your list is Bill Walton; I don't care how great he might have been if he'd stayed healthy. He only played 468 games over a 10-year career. Even his MVP year he only played in 58 games and, being that it was 1977-78, I'm going to guess that race played at least a partial role in why he won. If you were to switch them, and put Ewing on those Portland teams and Walton on NY, I would say that we would be worse for that.

Portland is a disaster for Centers! If Ewing was there who knows!

I get your point and like I said it might not be perfect. Stat wise Walton had a brief career and one cut down by injury.

But, for one season he has incredible. Enough that even a 58 game season got him MVP. Remember, Playoffs don't figure in the MVP voting.

ANd he carried a team on his back to a championship.

If there is criteia on my list that would have figured in Games played or other longevity factor were Walton comes off next on the list is Dave Cowens.

Is Dave Cowens ever better than Ewing? Tought to say different era. Dave was the Most Valuable in 1973. Epic playoff series with Knicks. The next season Boston won a championship. I'd say ewing was a better player but he was not MVP nor was able to lead his team to a ring. Cowens carries credentials Ewing does not have.

There are 12 centers with Duel MVP and Championship credentials. The 12 was Bob McAdoo. Was Ewing better than McAdoo? In my ranking I'd have McAdoo 12 and Ewing 13th. McAdoo got the credentials.

All MVP centers won a championship(s) at some point in their careers.

McAdoo won 2 with the lakers as a role player but still avged doubled digit point total! Great players might diminish from previous MVP status but they still got plenty to contribute as either an elite player or as a very essential role player. Maybe if Ewing allowed a team to develope around him he might have won, or when older been a role player on the H20-Spree lead team. No MVP, but a ring might have evolved.

Maybe Cowens should be in my top 10 and not Unseld?

I think McAdoo is good at 12th.

HOF rewards those for prolonged high level of play and Ewing is top 13 in my book.

Top 50, and just 10 centers to pick. Ewing is out, but he is very close. Perhaps the best center to hve never won a championship or an MVP. After him, Its Shaq and then the era of the great centers are over. Dwight might be teh best now, but he pales in offensive ability to the legends before him.

The first 30 years of MVP, 23 awards went to centers.

The following 26 years only produced 3 MVP awards to centers.

It was a big man league for a long time.

I loved Ewing the player as most of you did. I just can't put him over on any list over a player that carries Duel credenitals where he has none.

Bonn1997 wrote:Am I looking up the wrong person? George Mikan was a hall-of-fame center and his FG% was in the upper 30s or low 40s every year? He was well before my time but I'm astonished by those #s.

Different eras, really anything before Bill Russell should be looked at the way we look at football pre-Superbowl.

Bonn1997 wrote:Am I looking up the wrong person? George Mikan was a hall-of-fame center and his FG% was in the upper 30s or low 40s every year? He was well before my time but I'm astonished by those #s.

Completely differnt era style of ball.

Barkley reminds me of a black Rush Limbaugh. He can say anything and get away with it. He was caught several times drunk driving, chasing the ladies, saying stupid and crazy things not paying his gambling bills and getting away with it. He is the Teflon brother. He don't like the Knicks because back in the day he was punked by us.He wanted so much to be Jordans friend during the only championship run he ever had and got punked by Jordan. During the series Jordan wouldn't even talk to him Jordan punked him. The only way to shut him up is to win win win. Then all of our top players refuse to give interviews with thier staff until he leaves the area.