TripleThreat wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:What DEAL would you rather have today ? March 29 2012 thursday evening eh ?

I think it's still a bad LONG TERM trade in my book.

Value in the NBA is

1) Draft Picks

2) Cap space/flexibility

3) Young players with upside on rookie contracts as trade chips

The Knicks burned out all three to try to get LeBron James, to trade for Melo and to pick up Chandler. They also burned out their amnesty provision on Billups.

I think in the short term, the Knicks benefit as they've got a good group of talent and paid 50 cents on the dollar to get Melo and picked up Novak and Lin cheap who are producing at a tremendous return for the cost ( not just salary but cost to acquire) and got some amnesty help in Davis and lockout help from Smith.

The new CBA is designed to help teams who build through the draft. OKC will lose Harden or Ibaka in a year, but they have flexibility to offer them more or trade them. If OKC had picked up Harden or Ibaka in different ways, then it would make it harder for OKC to build a deep team. Consider the GSW, David Lee is a heck of a player, and was on the Knicks, but he cost the Warriors assets. Cap space and trade chips. If GSW had drafted Lee, they'd have some more cap flexibility and they could use those trade chips elsewhere.

To be fair to the Knicks, they are in a super unique situation

1) They are a big market team where the market itself can draw marquee talent. Most franchises aside from LA can't say this.

2) They have an ownership willing to spend deep into the luxury tax and have the resources to do so.

Most teams, if they tried to do what the Knicks did, would have destroyed their franchise for a decade.

I think it was a bad trade because there is going to be a tipping point. Where the contracts of Melo, STAT and Chandler bloat the cap space to the point where when Shump, Lin, Fields, Novak are all looking for raises and increases, it's going to cause a collision course. The struggle of a top heavy team is you have to ask your elite players to play major minutes and you often reduce depth.

James, Wade and Bosh are all great, but they've locked themselves into a tax zone where they just don't have the cap space or assets to pick up a real center. Asking James and Bosh to adjust to that will likely shave off minutes, and maybe seasons off their potential total career span.

The OKC Thunder have talent and options because they built through the draft. Chicago also is riding on a team mostly gotten through the draft ( the Boozer signing makes them rethink going outside the draft process) and their depth from the draft allowed them to move past a key injury. The Clipper were able to get Paul because they had assets acquired from the draft and weren't choked out cap wise or draft pick wise. The Lakers are the exception, like the Knicks, as they can survive a bad trade or move because players want to play there.

I think the Tim Thomas trade, one of those picks ended up as LaMarcus Aldridge. The Knicks cannot keep mortgaging the future for the present. At some point, you have to buy into one specific plan and run with it. I think Walsh had an idea of what he was trying to do, and Dolan blew it up. I'd still feel this way if the pickup was Deron Williams and not Melo.

What makes it more painful is Melo would have signed with NY anyway in the offseason, giving the Knicks a ton more options to build a proper team around him. Just because many aspects have worked out doesn't mean it was done the right way. Doing it the right way more often than not creates the long term payoff. That's the thing, some things are working out right now, but two years from now will they?

Fundamentally I feel the Melo trade is a bad trade. The NBA is also a game of resource allocation and distribution for GMs and front offices. In that area, I think the Knicks were lucky, but have failed to get the best return possible from what Walsh had given the team in terms of position and options.

You possibly could be right, time will tell. Blame Dolan for any bad trades worst than Walsh whom did MOST good things /deals for
Knickerbocker improvements.

However its about winning. Team hasn't won in 40 yrs.
Team hasn't had a major star/allstar in >10 yrs. Some considered Amare alone a true star I dont anymore. He's very good player
skilled & health has robbed his star/allstar status.

As far a Tim Thomas Trades or Knicks signings (Duhon), picks drafts wasted alot of that mess you're bringing up goes far back
as Scott Layden GM regime thru Zeke Thomas disaster regime. Tim Thomas and Duhon are D'Antoni signings pleas to Knick mgmt to
bring to team.

At least the vet Donnie Walsh got us under $$$ cap.

You mention the Clippers & Blake, and CP3, alot of those teams going to overcome hurdles and guarantee they wont win Titles in < 5yrs

I fully agree with you on NBA drafting & forged picks which Zeke Thomas mortgage Knicks future for skanks like Eddie Curry,
Marbury, Penny, ect.. Knicks wasted draft opportunities while rest of NBA building teams up with talent Knicks were away
far far on some other Island of the abysss.

However
You still win with VERY very good stars and players.
Melo may not be answer or the Main star whom wins Or will be a Knick in few seasons.
However you OR me don't know that for sure short-term. Team is still trying to form.

Yep Knicks don't have picks or draft power bargaining, something may change after 2013-2014 in that scope. 2013 is only 1 yr away
However NYK got a star/allstar SOB in Carmelo Anthony whom isnt' afraid, isnt running away. Comes with a resume of 7 yr Nugget
1yr Knick playoff experiences.

Some current NBA players/stars have been in league >5 yrs and hasnt even sniffed a bit of a NBA playoff game yet !

I like the fact we can only get better & finally have 1 guy to Build on/around
to go to NBA WAR with.

Thus that is a good thing for me as a fan & feel you're only winning NBA titles with GOOD good players/stars.
At least 1 -to few of them

Before 2011 Knicks had no stars.
No respect, no hope. No sniff of nba playoff game.

Today
we have something
I am proud to say that is fact!

babyKnicks wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

I like Gallo but doubt I'm his biggest fan. I've been spending a lot of time working (despite my high post count) and haven't watched much of the NBA overall. I do watch a fair number of OKC games because they have such an exciting, well-built team.

Please stop posting here. Please. Even the ignore feature isn't fool proof to this rubbish.

What did he say wrong????

knickstorrents wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:Bad Melo, Fair Melo , medium good or Great Melo

In all the players we mentioned here OR not here,
fact of matter is Carmelo Anthony is still best player among discussions win/lose or draw
& that includes Mr. Amare Stoudermire ironically.

Best players usually figure out how to help teams win games. Guess at end of day winning is the what makes everyone pay attention
if its good enough to qualify for playoffs then that discussion starts.

Fact of the matter is, the cap space being eaten up by Carmelo is more valuable than him as a player.

That's a fact.

What cap space ?
Knicks put themselves in position to make investments

Fact of matter is You're not getting elite, nor signing allstars nor trading for allstars,
nor getting draft #1 picks.

You're not getting a very very good players for a Dime nor a Nickle.

The OKC's and the lesser strap-cap' teams are one in 100.

You play and build winners thus you're going to spend $money sometimes.

Many many Many MANY NBA stars or allstars future (kids) or present could care less about coming to NY Knickerbocker-land
and when opportunity to get people whom wanted to be in NY like Stoudemire, like Melo or like Tyson Chandler (1 nba ring)

You're going to worry about $ cap space ?
and $$$ ability you're claiming as fact ? so What ? to get whom ?
to sign what players ?

Gotta be kidding ?

Grant Hill,D.Wade, Reggie Miller or K.Malone when active player ALL the BIG-WIGs used Knicks to drive up prices salary expectations $$$. There is perhaps other stars I've forgot visited Knicks at one point for free-agency.

As far as kids coming into the young NBA, record shows most Allstar/superstars dont win an NBA title until after 6-8 yrs at least in
the league. Since Knickerbockers haven't won in about 40 yrs I can't see fans having too much patience for that!

Cap is important I understand but you're not going anyplace as far as division title, NBA east-conference title then
greater without 1-2 STAR or lead allstar players. Then you're building around those kinda players & hope you're lucky to fill pieces

Cap an issue in Zeke Thomas and Scott Layden era, Walsh helped out getting NY a few pieces here.

And unless you're the Knicks getting top five(5) pick or #1 is luck.

Look at how many top picks Clippers got and they finally being talked about after how long 20 yrs ? of picks
Clippers with cap still ain't going anyplace yet or at least another 5 - 7 yrs.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote: If you think I'm biased, ask Nixluva. He's as kind to all Knick players as anyone here but still could bring himself to acknowledge that Melo has had a negative impact on the team this year.

WHAAAAAAAAAT?!?!?

Ask Nixluva? He is not biased and kind to all Knicks players? He is the most biased poster on this board hating any player that makes/made MDA look bad!!! He still can't get over it and finds a way to knock all of our wins in this glorious stretch!!!

C'MON MAN!!

Unless you've been here for years and only recently changed your name, how would you know what my record is on this forum? I have always been known as a very positive poster under even the most dark days of this franchise. I've been a fan since the last Title so clearly i've seen a lot of Knick coaches. I'm extremely happy that the team is winning under Woodson, just as I was when they were winning under MDA. I'm not against the teams wins. What my posting has mostly been about is that with only this very small sample size the anti MDA contingent is taking shots at MDA and praising Woodson and forgiving Melo.

Woodson still has a long way to go despite the way the team is playing. That's not being negative!!! That's just pointing out the truth. If win streaks told the whole story MDA would still be here. Woody has really pushed the team on D and that's great, but this team still has some things they need to fix before the playoffs. That's not being negative and biased by pointing that out.

As for Melo. Let's also tell the truth. Melo has been a net negative presence since he's been here. He's got a lot more work to do in order to claim that he's led this team to victory and their goals as a team. Melo has practically done nothing to help this team win since he's gotten here. Now cuz he's stepped up in the last 2 games all these posters want to give him brownie points for that!

Look Melo is here and he's not going anywhere. He's got to improve as a player and a leader and maybe he's starting to do that. Maybe all of this crap he pulled has now put him in a position where he's got to grow up. I hope so cuz his poor play is a major reason this team is in a hole and just now getting to a game over .500. We should be leading the Atlantic.

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:To answer the question, I prefer the team as it is today as compared to the team we had. There is no way to really know what the team would look like today had he trade not gone down but comparing apples to apples we have more talent now and have a better chance to win a championship.

I don't disagree with you but one aspect that is almost fun, or tragically sad is we "Have a better chance to win a championship" but yet was are behind last years pace, and was are in a struggle to gain the 8th and final spot in the east.

ON paper we have the talent.

All that transpired this season is part of it. There are reasons and blame is assigned.

There are always "reasons" isn't there?

With the knicks, the more the roster/coaching changes the more things stay the same.

Champion caliber teams take time to put together.

In NY patience is not a virtue, its an anoyance!

CashMoney wrote:Apples to apples how would last years team done in a condensed season? This is the first time in the history of the league that so many games have been played in such a short period of time. Who knows what are record would be if we had a normal season. Heck MDA may still be the coach

The Celtics won the championship in the first year of the Big 3 and Miami came damn close last year. On paper we have the talent. It will be interesting to see how we finish off the year, especially when we consider that STAT may very well be done for the year.

We have the pieces to make a serious run and we can still win the Atlantic. Hanging onto the 8th seed today may very well be a 4 seed come the end of the season.

Well we would have no Gallo cause he woulda hurt something and Chandler would just be starting to kick in (if he was still on the team). Moz would be in foul trouble, and Felton would be fat hoping it was him dressed up in drag doing a weight watchers commercial.

Silverfuel wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:To answer the question, I prefer the team as it is today as compared to the team we had. There is no way to really know what the team would look like today had he trade not gone down but comparing apples to apples we have more talent now and have a better chance to win a championship.

I don't disagree with you but one aspect that is almost fun, or tragically sad is we "Have a better chance to win a championship" but yet was are behind last years pace, and was are in a struggle to gain the 8th and final spot in the east.

ON paper we have the talent.

All that transpired this season is part of it. There are reasons and blame is assigned.

There are always "reasons" isn't there?

With the knicks, the more the roster/coaching changes the more things stay the same.

Champion caliber teams take time to put together.

In NY patience is not a virtue, its an anoyance!

Which team do you prefer, last years or this years? Just tell me that much. Because this thread is revisiting the trade so we have the benefit of hindsight.

1st
PG: Chris Paul
SG: Fields
SF: Gallo
PF: Amare
C: Chandler

2nd
PG: Felton
SG: Fields
SF: Gallo
PF: Howard
C: Chandler

3rd
PG: Felton
SG: Fields
SF: Gallo
PF: Amare
C: Chandler
$20 mil cap space

4th (tie): what we have now

4th (going along with your argument that Chandler would come here only if Melo were here)
PG: Felton
SG: Fields
SF: Gallo
PF: Sheldon Williams
C: Amare

I would have never signed Amare to that contract but I'm treating this conversation as if we have already signed him.

Nalod wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:To answer the question, I prefer the team as it is today as compared to the team we had. There is no way to really know what the team would look like today had he trade not gone down but comparing apples to apples we have more talent now and have a better chance to win a championship.

I don't disagree with you but one aspect that is almost fun, or tragically sad is we "Have a better chance to win a championship" but yet was are behind last years pace, and was are in a struggle to gain the 8th and final spot in the east.

ON paper we have the talent.

All that transpired this season is part of it. There are reasons and blame is assigned.

There are always "reasons" isn't there?

With the knicks, the more the roster/coaching changes the more things stay the same.

Champion caliber teams take time to put together.

In NY patience is not a virtue, its an anoyance!

Which team do you prefer, last years or this years? Just tell me that much. Because this thread is revisiting the trade so we have the benefit of hindsight.

In no way can you say the roster remains in a "Static" state.

Thus, I cannot begin to compare.

There is way too many variables.

if this does not answer your questions, I am sorry.

+1