TripleThreat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks were 8-15 before Linsanity and 2-9 after. Thats thirty four games of not buying in in a 66 game season with a tremendously talented roster. Things worked with Lin when Melo was out but an awful lot of games were lost prior to the coaching change and the Knicks are in a position where they have to fight to just get in the playoffs. I think when the coach says his message doesn't always resonate and even Amare is saying that guys are tuning the coach out it is time for a new voice. I hope it continues to work with Woodson and the Knicks continue winning.

MDA is not the Knicks GM, nor is he the Knick's meddling owner. He is not the one who traded so many assets to clear out for the LeBron James offseason, the Melo trade and then the Tyson Chandler sign and trade. The front office left MDA with NOTHING but a top heavy team with three highly paid guys on the frontline, two of whom were notorious for their poor defense, and a bunch of minimum salary guys and young players on their rookie contracts. This ENTIRE season, before Linsanity, was resting on the hopes of Baron "Fat Boy" Davis.

That being said, real TEAM LEADERS set an example for all other players. Tim Duncan could be a giant jerk if he wanted to be a jerk. So could Tony Parker and Ginobili, but for the Spurs, it starts there, the stars buy in, so the rest fall in line. The same worked for Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan and George Karl and Don Nelson, aside from his Knicks stint. TEAM LEADERS also see when a team is weak in an area and by virtue of being that ALPHA DOG player, carries the team on his back for stretches. That's the responsibility of being the top shelf star player on an NBA team.

The coaches message didn't resonate for no other reason than Melo didn't want it to resonate. None of these coaches, Jackson, Pop, Sloan or Karl or Adelman would have survived if their elite players were petulant and refused to take the responsibility of leadership. The only reason new voices are needed is because it's easier and cheaper to replace the coach, than it is to replace the superstar player with the huge long term guaranteed contract.

IMHO the only reason Woodson gets to carry any kind of stick here is because Melo is OUT OF ROPE. He already can't get along with Karl in Denver, and he couldn't with MDA in NY, if he runs though another established coach, what do you think that will do to his marketing and brand and image?

MDA had issues as a coach, no doubt, and I can't even say I think he was the answer, but lets not pretend he was the ONLY PROBLEM. He was simply the part of the problem that was EASIER TO DUMP.

When a child throws a tantrum, do you give in to those demands? No, because you send the wrong message. The one where if you bitch and moan enough and stamp your feet enough and cry enough and go running to Daddy Dolan enough, you'll get what you want and get your way. You do that and you ensure that kid never has to become an adult. Before you can be a team leader, you have to be an adult first. And what's grown up about a star player in the league for nearly a decade pouting away from the team huddle because some rookie is taking all his endorsements and the fans love him more? Look at the Pistons, before they ran Kuester out of town, that same core drove out the prior two coaches too. At some point you have to stop blaming the coaches for why a team can't get it done. At some point, it's just the players.

All Dolan is doing is enabling a man child chucker. I held my tongue on Melo all the way up until MDA was clipped. Try your best and if your coach can't cut the mustard, then lobby to get him removed, but don't smile while your team is losing and go halfhearted on D in front of your loyal fans, your hard working fans who pay good money to cheer you on, and then blame the coach.

It's not time for a new voice, it's time for Daddy Dolan to hand Melo a towel and tell him to sop up his aching leaking mangina and nut up and act like the star player and leader that his salary and position demands of him. Or Daddy Dolan is going to backhand Melo and ship him out and find himself a true son of New York who can.

A lot of things wrong here, but I'm only going to highlight two. The first time Jackson quit LA was because he couldn't stand Kobe anymore and actually wrote in his book how much he couldn't stand Kobe; he then came back a few years later and went to three more Finals, winning two of them. And Sloan quit because he couldn't stand DWill anymore, a player that every Melo hater points to and says, "Look who we could have had instead!" Second point is you point to Tony Parker as a guy who's not a "jerk" and is a "leader" (I always love it when people who don't know these guys at all make these proclamations) even though he reportedly slept with a teammate's wife.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm still waiting for Melo to be the REASON we win games!!! Not for nothing but he's had a far more pronounced negative impact than positive. This is his challenge now. Can he be the catalysts that leads to wins? Even tonights game was more about the role players once again doing their thing. Just look at the +/- stats and you can see that it's the same guys that helped create Linsanity.

Melo was +9 tonight. He had the highest +/- percentage on the team.

STARTERS 	       MIN 	FGM-A 	3PM-A 	FTM-A 	REB 	AST 	STL 	BLK 	TO 	PF 	+/- 	PTS
Carmelo Anthony, SF	30	6-13	1-4	4	4	3	0	0	3	3	+9	16
Amare Stoudemire, PF	32	4-8	0-0	5	8	0	1	0	0	3	-3	16
Tyson Chandler, C	32	3-5	0-0	4	9	3	2	3	1	4	+1	8
Landry Fields, G	20	3-7	0-2	2	3	0	1	0	1	1	-4	9
Jeremy Lin, PG	        33	6-10	0-1	7-8	7	6	1	1	2	4	+3	19
BENCH 	               MIN 	FGM-A 	3PM-A 	FTM-A 	REB 	AST 	STL 	BLK 	TO 	PF 	+/- 	PTS
Mike Bibby, PG	       10	2-5	1-2	1	1	1	1	0	0	1	+6	5
Jared Jeffries, PF     15	1-5	4	1	5	0	0	2	1	2	+9	6
Steve Novak, SF	       16	2-6	2-6	3	3	0	0	0	2	0	+10	6
J.R. Smith, SG	       30	4-12	3-8	3	3	0	1	1	1	1	+20	11
Iman Shumpert, G       22	1-6	1	2	3	3	1	0	0	3	+19	6

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm still waiting for Melo to be the REASON we win games!!! Not for nothing but he's had a far more pronounced negative impact than positive. This is his challenge now. Can he be the catalysts that leads to wins? Even tonights game was more about the role players once again doing their thing. Just look at the +/- stats and you can see that it's the same guys that helped create Linsanity.

Melo was +9 tonight. He had the highest +/- percentage on the team.

STARTERS 	       MIN 	FGM-A 	3PM-A 	FTM-A 	REB 	AST 	STL 	BLK 	TO 	PF 	+/- 	PTS
Carmelo Anthony, SF	30	6-13	1-4	4	4	3	0	0	3	3	+9	16
Amare Stoudemire, PF	32	4-8	0-0	5	8	0	1	0	0	3	-3	16
Tyson Chandler, C	32	3-5	0-0	4	9	3	2	3	1	4	+1	8
Landry Fields, G	20	3-7	0-2	2	3	0	1	0	1	1	-4	9
Jeremy Lin, PG	        33	6-10	0-1	7-8	7	6	1	1	2	4	+3	19
BENCH 	               MIN 	FGM-A 	3PM-A 	FTM-A 	REB 	AST 	STL 	BLK 	TO 	PF 	+/- 	PTS
Mike Bibby, PG	       10	2-5	1-2	1	1	1	1	0	0	1	+6	5
Jared Jeffries, PF     15	1-5	4	1	5	0	0	2	1	2	+9	6
Steve Novak, SF	       16	2-6	2-6	3	3	0	0	0	2	0	+10	6
J.R. Smith, SG	       30	4-12	3-8	3	3	0	1	1	1	1	+20	11
Iman Shumpert, G       22	1-6	1	2	3	3	1	0	0	3	+19	6

So you are saying he was the most impactful starter. So does that mean he was a catalyst?

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

nixluva wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:i

nixluva wrote:I love the way the guys have stuck together all year. They really seem to genuinely like each other! However TripleThreat is right about STAT and Melo. I made a thread about the 2 of them not giving 100% and it's the main reason this team hasn't won more this year! Melo was clearly not buying in and it's perfectly ok to call him on it. On both ends Melo wasn't being a leader. STAT was an embarrassment on D. So much so that Spurs announcers highlighted his "step away" move that we've all seen him do on D!!! This team could've been doing this all along. They both better give Max effort from here on or else fans and media will call them on it with no more excuse of MDA anymore!

It happens. Happened with Ewing and Nelson and then what happened? JVG took over and the rest is history. Sometimes you need.to change the system if u want to win.

Dude they really haven't CHANGED the system. The Defense and Offense are pretty much the same except for some tweaks. The biggest change has been STAT and Melo joining the team on D. Clearly Melo hasn't been giving his all on both ends and certainly not buying in. Now with MOSTLY the same offense, he's suddenly doing what he was supposed to do all along. These things are clear as day!!! In truth MDA wasn't really asking Melo to do anything hard. His pouting was a very immature and punk move. Dude was literally part of the reason the team started losing along with STAT who wasn't giving 100% on D. No doubt about it our 2 stars got the coach fired!!!

Sorry I should've made myself more clear. Sometimes u need to change the system and the voice because it happens with all great coaches the player tune them out after a long tenure

I really don't think in this instance that it had anything to do with a change of voice. Melo hadn't even played 82 games for MDA! I really don't believe that from the morning practice to the game they played that evening that Woodson could possibly have made so much of an impact that the Team played that much harder. It's not like the entire team wasn't playing hard all year. It was mainly STAT and Melo who weren't in mid season shape and weren't playing up to their status level as team leaders.

This was a team that was totally buying in and had really come together before the return of Melo. It's a clear demarcation line between the good play before he came back and the poor play after. Now it's evident visually how much happier he's been looking and playing and it just makes it clear he didn't like MDA, no matter what he says. His actions make it clear he wasn't giving his all. Melo really didn't try to buy in and he eventually got what he wanted. It's not like MDA was really having issues with any other player besides Melo. All the expressions from the rest of the team suggest they liked MDA.

So now MDA is gone and the team can now move forward and maybe reach it's potential. That's the good thing about this but I don't like how this went down and it didn't have to be that way.

The Knicks were 8-15 before Linsanity and 2-9 after. Thats thirty four games of not buying in in a 66 game season with a tremendously talented roster. Things worked with Lin when Melo was out but an awful lot of games were lost prior to the coaching change and the Knicks are in a position where they have to fight to just get in the playoffs. I think when the coach says his message doesn't always resonate and even Amare is saying that guys are tuning the coach out it is time for a new voice. I hope it continues to work with Woodson and the Knicks continue winning.

It depends on how much weight you put on the coaches "Voice". I personally don't believe that was the problem. You can't just go from playing like crap to BALLIN like that with the major change being the addition of a PG and the removal of a Star SF. The team reacted so well during that stretch and it wasn't about great scoring. It was mostly predicated on great energy on DEFENSE!!! People say MDA didn't inspire great D, but during that stretch great D was exactly what the team was playing.

Then it all went the complete opposite direction. MDA didn't change his coaching. We all know what the change was! Of course i'm oversimplifying, but STAT had been making comments about players not buying in or trusting the system and we all know who he was actually talking about. That battle was destroying the team morale and on the court it manifested itself in the starters playing some uninspired BB. I've posted the record on how bad 3rd qtrs had been and it was a direct reflection of our star players not playing hard on both ends. It wasn't the whole team, just the team when STAT and Melo were on the court and more specifically Melo, STAT started to come around.

This is the last time i'm commenting on this but I feel there's a lot of people wanting to ignore the truth about Melo and his impact on the team since he's been here. Clearly he could've played better and the last 2 games we've seen that. Not great offensive explosions. Just more energy on D which he could always have been doing.

misterearl wrote:Syniko - prejudice is a terrible thing. Melo the Clown?

The idea is that individual players can conform to a team identity.

Staying on the same page as Lin on offense is much less important than playing aggressive defense.

How did you arrive at racism because I called Melo a clown? Are you thinking all black people are clowns or something? Therefore, you're the one that is racist. Right?

Is Homey the Clown the target of racism? Homey don't play that "Smacks Misterearl on the head with a sack"

VCoug wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks were 8-15 before Linsanity and 2-9 after. Thats thirty four games of not buying in in a 66 game season with a tremendously talented roster. Things worked with Lin when Melo was out but an awful lot of games were lost prior to the coaching change and the Knicks are in a position where they have to fight to just get in the playoffs. I think when the coach says his message doesn't always resonate and even Amare is saying that guys are tuning the coach out it is time for a new voice. I hope it continues to work with Woodson and the Knicks continue winning.

MDA is not the Knicks GM, nor is he the Knick's meddling owner. He is not the one who traded so many assets to clear out for the LeBron James offseason, the Melo trade and then the Tyson Chandler sign and trade. The front office left MDA with NOTHING but a top heavy team with three highly paid guys on the frontline, two of whom were notorious for their poor defense, and a bunch of minimum salary guys and young players on their rookie contracts. This ENTIRE season, before Linsanity, was resting on the hopes of Baron "Fat Boy" Davis.

That being said, real TEAM LEADERS set an example for all other players. Tim Duncan could be a giant jerk if he wanted to be a jerk. So could Tony Parker and Ginobili, but for the Spurs, it starts there, the stars buy in, so the rest fall in line. The same worked for Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan and George Karl and Don Nelson, aside from his Knicks stint. TEAM LEADERS also see when a team is weak in an area and by virtue of being that ALPHA DOG player, carries the team on his back for stretches. That's the responsibility of being the top shelf star player on an NBA team.

The coaches message didn't resonate for no other reason than Melo didn't want it to resonate. None of these coaches, Jackson, Pop, Sloan or Karl or Adelman would have survived if their elite players were petulant and refused to take the responsibility of leadership. The only reason new voices are needed is because it's easier and cheaper to replace the coach, than it is to replace the superstar player with the huge long term guaranteed contract.

IMHO the only reason Woodson gets to carry any kind of stick here is because Melo is OUT OF ROPE. He already can't get along with Karl in Denver, and he couldn't with MDA in NY, if he runs though another established coach, what do you think that will do to his marketing and brand and image?

MDA had issues as a coach, no doubt, and I can't even say I think he was the answer, but lets not pretend he was the ONLY PROBLEM. He was simply the part of the problem that was EASIER TO DUMP.

When a child throws a tantrum, do you give in to those demands? No, because you send the wrong message. The one where if you bitch and moan enough and stamp your feet enough and cry enough and go running to Daddy Dolan enough, you'll get what you want and get your way. You do that and you ensure that kid never has to become an adult. Before you can be a team leader, you have to be an adult first. And what's grown up about a star player in the league for nearly a decade pouting away from the team huddle because some rookie is taking all his endorsements and the fans love him more? Look at the Pistons, before they ran Kuester out of town, that same core drove out the prior two coaches too. At some point you have to stop blaming the coaches for why a team can't get it done. At some point, it's just the players.

All Dolan is doing is enabling a man child chucker. I held my tongue on Melo all the way up until MDA was clipped. Try your best and if your coach can't cut the mustard, then lobby to get him removed, but don't smile while your team is losing and go halfhearted on D in front of your loyal fans, your hard working fans who pay good money to cheer you on, and then blame the coach.

It's not time for a new voice, it's time for Daddy Dolan to hand Melo a towel and tell him to sop up his aching leaking mangina and nut up and act like the star player and leader that his salary and position demands of him. Or Daddy Dolan is going to backhand Melo and ship him out and find himself a true son of New York who can.

A lot of things wrong here, but I'm only going to highlight two. The first time Jackson quit LA was because he couldn't stand Kobe anymore and actually wrote in his book how much he couldn't stand Kobe; he then came back a few years later and went to three more Finals, winning two of them. And Sloan quit because he couldn't stand DWill anymore, a player that every Melo hater points to and says, "Look who we could have had instead!" Second point is you point to Tony Parker as a guy who's not a "jerk" and is a "leader" (I always love it when people who don't know these guys at all make these proclamations) even though he reportedly slept with a teammate's wife.

Great Truthful post.