Nalod wrote:The team Riles inherited in the three years before he got there won 50 games, 45 games, and 39 games. That was the year John Mcloud finished the year after a disasster start by Stu Jackson.

Core of Ewing and Oak up front in a time and place where showtime was not happeing and smash mouth Detroit ball was all the rage.

Different time and era. Riles did a great job with a talented core. When Riles left, the hand checking rules came into play.

If you gonna go out and get Amare and run, thats one thing. If you gonna then gut the team and get Melo and think putting the two together will work thats is the question at hand.

If you take a grayhound like Amare and now bring in melo and want to slow the whole show down is that the best thing?

YOu know, It might not be and perhaps not having an uptempo system in place is not the best thing.

BUt I don't see Amare being successful in anything but an uptempo one. Thats what he did in PHX and was doing well last year.

Seems like panic every game indictment is the reaction around here.

What to do now? Keep working on it!

I wholeheartedly agree...

Just to reiterate for the thousandth time, the Knicks were 2nd in scoring and a top team in offensive efficiency. THOSE ARE THE FACTS! That's with STAT here and with Melo. This team hasn't really been a pure run team like the SSOL Suns and we haven't been running SSOL since MDA got here. We haven't had the players. What people don't realize cuz they don't dig deep enough is that MUCH of D'Antoni's offense has nothing to do with running uptempo.

The uptempo part is to get early offense which statistically is more efficient because the defense isn't set yet. The bulk of Mike's playbook is halfcourt stuff and people don't realize that he can unleash all of it cuz the players haven't even mastered the basics yet. WHY? Cuz we keep changing the team. We haven't had the same PG for the last 3 years!!! Duhon, Felton/CB and now TD/Bibby. We've actually regressed at the PG spot.

People bring up how the Lakers win with Fisher, but the dude has been there for YEARS!!!

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:The thing is that Melo came from the only offense to actually score more than the Knicks! It's not that Melo can't play in an uptempo style or that STAT can't play in a slower halfcourt style. Both has been effective in either style.

Just to reiterate for the thousandth time, the Knicks were 2nd in scoring and a top team in offensive efficiency. THOSE ARE THE FACTS! That's with STAT here and with Melo. This team hasn't really been a pure run team like the SSOL Suns and we haven't been running SSOL since MDA got here. We haven't had the players. What people don't realize cuz they don't dig deep enough is that MUCH of D'Antoni's offense has nothing to do with running uptempo.

The uptempo part is to get early offense which statistically is more efficient because the defense isn't set yet. The bulk of Mike's playbook is halfcourt stuff and people don't realize that he can unleash all of it cuz the players haven't even mastered the basics yet. WHY? Cuz we keep changing the team. We haven't had the same PG for the last 3 years!!! Duhon, Felton/CB and now TD/Bibby. We've actually regressed at the PG spot.

People bring up how the Lakers win with Fisher, but the dude has been there for YEARS!!!

It's unfortunate that we haven't been able to keep the same PG. It sucks we had to trade Felton for Billups. Felton seemed very right for this offense and this team. It also sucks that we are still up in the air at the PG spot. Luckily we have Davis coming back at some point, but only time will tell whether or not he's the answer. Nash and Felton are both FAs this summer and clearly both would be upgrades. The first 5 games hasn't told us anything about this team except that we need a good PG. Hopefully we have that coming back from injury in a few weeks, but if not we have some good options in the summer.

Felton did seem right, but not in preseason, and not for 13 games, then without knowledge of what was to be, the team was just fine afterwards.

I don't know the future, but its basically the same old same old.

Here is a twist, Dolan won't extend MDA but when MDA wants to leave (think Thibs is safe if they get bounced in second round?) MDA will bolt but it will be after we made a nice improvement this year.

Think about Mike Woodson as the new coach.

Not that exciting is it?

For someone who always says they don't care about last season, the season before or even the 1st half of a season when in the second you're sure spinning the wheels a lot.

nixluva wrote:The concern has NEVER been the offense! Why all of a sudden are there so many people looking to make this about a lack of ability to coach offense? Teams was top 5-10 in most offensive categories last year with Felton as the PG. Now we don't even have someone at his level. Also as Nalod pointed out it took a while for all the new guys to meld last year and I would suspect that things would be no different this year. Not to mention the short camp and preseason and early injuries which have been unfortunate.

Things aren't at such a desperate state that we have to question MDA's offensive coaching ability. I mean come on! This is just typical bashing by guys who never liked his offensive style to begin with, even tho it's been very effective.

We really haven't been able to run SSOL since MDA has gotten here. We never really had a roster built to run like that and certainly never had a PG that could push the tempo and also run PnR on a high level. Felton was the closest we ever came and he wasn't even in top shape last year. Felton was visibly overweight last year. Still he became effective in this offense.

nixluva wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

For someone who always says they don't care about last season, the season before or even the 1st half of a season when in the second you're sure spinning the wheels a lot.

Did you have an actual point to make or just critique my posts? The past is only relevant to prove that D'Antoni's system has been effective. In fact extremely effective! The point of bringing up last year is to show that with a DECENT PG the team was ranked near the top of the league in offense. Right now the only thing missing from this team is a capable PG. We're not talking great, just capable. It makes a world of difference. STAT, Melo, Fields started and we improved the C spot with Tyson. Tyson basically is doing what we asked Ronny and Moz to do. The only negative difference is that we have TD starting at the point.

Davis is a possible improvement at PG if he can get healthy. Meanwhile we have to allow time for TD to try and adjust in much the same way every PG has had to learn how to play on a higher level than they did before. Mike's system makes PG's more efficient if they can apply what he's teaching them,but you can't make something from nothing. There has to be some ability there to work with. Even just a small amount of ability and Mike has been able to get something out of them. Guys like Duhon and Felton played better under Mike than they had in their career. God knows Duhon wasn't any good, but he was able to get something out of him. TD has to play better and the hope is that he'll eventually get it.

My main point is that you don't have to change a system that works because the team is struggling early.

To your point, don't we NEED an above average PG to make this system work? We don't have that and my confidence for now in BD is not great until I see otherwise. So ...

A system is based on the sum of it's parts and if we don't have the pivotal one, shouldn't there be a different "system"? A coach needs to be able to adjust to his personel like we see with any good coach in any sport.

I don't know why we are defending a system that is misfitted. It might work for Nash or alike but not here.

Also, numerous times you mentioned Felton and has he related to this "system". Felton (and the Knicks) were not playing well at all prior to the trade. People seem to forget that. And again, last year, the knicks lived and died by the 3. They won when it was on and lost when it was off - pretty much across the board.

Adjustments are the key to good coaching and his personel. It would be nice to win games in the trenches.

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

For someone who always says they don't care about last season, the season before or even the 1st half of a season when in the second you're sure spinning the wheels a lot.

Did you have an actual point to make or just critique my posts? The past is only relevant to prove that D'Antoni's system has been effective. In fact extremely effective! The point of bringing up last year is to show that with a DECENT PG the team was ranked near the top of the league in offense. Right now the only thing missing from this team is a capable PG. We're not talking great, just capable. It makes a world of difference. STAT, Melo, Fields started and we improved the C spot with Tyson. Tyson basically is doing what we asked Ronny and Moz to do. The only negative difference is that we have TD starting at the point.

Davis is a possible improvement at PG if he can get healthy. Meanwhile we have to allow time for TD to try and adjust in much the same way every PG has had to learn how to play on a higher level than they did before. Mike's system makes PG's more efficient if they can apply what he's teaching them,but you can't make something from nothing. There has to be some ability there to work with. Even just a small amount of ability and Mike has been able to get something out of them. Guys like Duhon and Felton played better under Mike than they had in their career. God knows Duhon wasn't any good, but he was able to get something out of him. TD has to play better and the hope is that he'll eventually get it.

My main point is that you don't have to change a system that works because the team is struggling early.

To your point, don't we NEED an above average PG to make this system work? We don't have that and my confidence for now in BD is not great until I see otherwise. So ...

A system is based on the sum of it's parts and if we don't have the pivotal one, shouldn't there be a different "system"? A coach needs to be able to adjust to his personel like we see with any good coach in any sport.

I don't know why we are defending a system that is misfitted. It might work for Nash or alike but not here.

Also, numerous times you mentioned Felton and has he related to this "system". Felton (and the Knicks) were not playing well at all prior to the trade. People seem to forget that. And again, last year, the knicks lived and died by the 3. They won when it was on and lost when it was off - pretty much across the board.

Adjustments are the key to good coaching and his personel. It would be nice to win games in the trenches.

You are kidding right? So everytime someone gets hurt (Baron/Shump) we should change the entire system to adjust to scrubs who shouldn't even see playing time? This is how you want the team to be coached? So Phil Jackson would stop using the triangle offense if Shaq or Kobe gets hurt? A d if you are talking about SSOL we haven't even seen any signs of OT so far this season.

What system do you propose we should play?

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:To your point, don't we NEED an above average PG to make this system work? We don't have that and my confidence for now in BD is not great until I see otherwise. So ...

A system is based on the sum of it's parts and if we don't have the pivotal one, shouldn't there be a different "system"? A coach needs to be able to adjust to his personel like we see with any good coach in any sport.

I don't know why we are defending a system that is misfitted. It might work for Nash or alike but not here.

Also, numerous times you mentioned Felton and has he related to this "system". Felton (and the Knicks) were not playing well at all prior to the trade. People seem to forget that. And again, last year, the knicks lived and died by the 3. They won when it was on and lost when it was off - pretty much across the board.

Adjustments are the key to good coaching and his personel. It would be nice to win games in the trenches.

My answer to this is that PERCEPTION is not reality. Fans make assumptions based on perception but the fact of the matter is that with Felton and CB, 2 PG's that are not supposed to be a good match for this style of BB, cuz they aren't great passing, breakdown PG's, this team was a top team in offensive efficiency!

Perception is the Knicks stink at shooting 3's and don't have any pure 3pt shooters:
Reality:

3-point Field Goal Percentage Leaders
RK  TEAM    PTS	  FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	PPS	AFG%
1  Spurs    103.7 38.4	80.8	.475	8.4	21.1	.397	18.5	24.2	.767	1.28	.527
2  Warriors 103.4 39.6	85.9	.461	8.4	21.3	.392	15.7	20.7	.761	1.20	.510
3  Nuggets  107.5 38.4	80.6	.476	8.1	20.8	.388	22.7	29.6	.765	1.33	.526
4  Suns     105.0 39.3	83.5	.470	8.5	22.6	.377	18.0	23.6	.759	1.26	.522
5  T Wolves 101.1 37.7	85.5	.441	7.2	19.1	.376	18.5	24.1	.768	1.18	.483
6  Pistons  97.0  37.3	81.1	.460	5.8	15.3	.376	16.7	22.6	.737	1.20	.495
7  Heat	    102.1 37.0	76.8	.481	6.7	18.0	.370	21.5	27.9	.769	1.33	.524
8  Knicks   106.5 38.3	83.7	.457	9.3	25.4	.368	20.6	25.5	.809	1.27	.513

Perception is that this system can't work without a great PG or with a PG that is not a pure passer and breakdown guy like Nash:
Reality:

Hollinger Stats - Offensive Efficiency
RK  TEAM	PACE	AST	TO	ORR	DRR	REBR	EFF FG%	TS%	OFF EFF	DEF EFF
1  Denver	97.9	15.4	23.2	23.9	75.4	50.4	52.6	57.4	109.5	104.8
2  San Antonio	94.6	15.9	22.7	24.9	74.6	50.4	52.7	56.7	109.4	102.8
3  Miami	93.2	14.6	23.8	25.2	75.5	51.8	52.4	57.3	109.3	100.7
4  Okl City	95.3	14.4	23.2	27.4	73.6	51.3	50.1	56.1	108.6	104.0
5  New York	98.1	14.9	22.4	24.2	71.9	47.9	51.3	56.1	108.3	106.9
6  Houston	96.9	16.2	22.0	27.4	72.7	50.0	50.3	55.0	108.0	106.2
7  LA Lakers	93.4	15.6	22.0	29.2	72.3	51.5	50.2	54.5	107.9	101.3
8  Dallas	93.4	17.0	23.9	24.1	74.8	50.4	52.5	56.5	107.6	102.3
9  Phoenix	96.8	16.2	23.3	23.7	71.6	47.6	52.2	55.9	107.0	107.4
10 Orlando	93.5	14.3	25.0	26.1	76.9	52.1	52.1	55.5	105.7	99.1

The reality is that this team is really capable of playing at a high level if we can get the PG spot handled at a reasonable level of execution. Right now we're getting mediocre to awful play at PG. You don't abandon a successful system just cuz you're struggling at the point. We've seen this happen several times with PG's here. Once they get it, things come together. Duhon, Felton and CB were not perfect fits, but still Mike managed to get a lot out of this team regardless. Gotta hope B. Diddy can get healthy cuz he could thrive in this system.

show us the

[offensive figures] - [defensive figures] = X?

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:To your point, don't we NEED an above average PG to make this system work? We don't have that and my confidence for now in BD is not great until I see otherwise. So ...

A system is based on the sum of it's parts and if we don't have the pivotal one, shouldn't there be a different "system"? A coach needs to be able to adjust to his personel like we see with any good coach in any sport.

I don't know why we are defending a system that is misfitted. It might work for Nash or alike but not here.

Also, numerous times you mentioned Felton and has he related to this "system". Felton (and the Knicks) were not playing well at all prior to the trade. People seem to forget that. And again, last year, the knicks lived and died by the 3. They won when it was on and lost when it was off - pretty much across the board.

Adjustments are the key to good coaching and his personel. It would be nice to win games in the trenches.

My answer to this is that PERCEPTION is not reality. Fans make assumptions based on perception but the fact of the matter is that with Felton and CB, 2 PG's that are not supposed to be a good match for this style of BB, cuz they aren't great passing, breakdown PG's, this team was a top team in offensive efficiency!

Perception is the Knicks stink at shooting 3's and don't have any pure 3pt shooters:
Reality:

3-point Field Goal Percentage Leaders
RK  TEAM    PTS	  FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	PPS	AFG%
1  Spurs    103.7 38.4	80.8	.475	8.4	21.1	.397	18.5	24.2	.767	1.28	.527
2  Warriors 103.4 39.6	85.9	.461	8.4	21.3	.392	15.7	20.7	.761	1.20	.510
3  Nuggets  107.5 38.4	80.6	.476	8.1	20.8	.388	22.7	29.6	.765	1.33	.526
4  Suns     105.0 39.3	83.5	.470	8.5	22.6	.377	18.0	23.6	.759	1.26	.522
5  T Wolves 101.1 37.7	85.5	.441	7.2	19.1	.376	18.5	24.1	.768	1.18	.483
6  Pistons  97.0  37.3	81.1	.460	5.8	15.3	.376	16.7	22.6	.737	1.20	.495
7  Heat	    102.1 37.0	76.8	.481	6.7	18.0	.370	21.5	27.9	.769	1.33	.524
8  Knicks   106.5 38.3	83.7	.457	9.3	25.4	.368	20.6	25.5	.809	1.27	.513

Perception is that this system can't work without a great PG or with a PG that is not a pure passer and breakdown guy like Nash:
Reality:

Hollinger Stats - Offensive Efficiency
RK  TEAM	PACE	AST	TO	ORR	DRR	REBR	EFF FG%	TS%	OFF EFF	DEF EFF
1  Denver	97.9	15.4	23.2	23.9	75.4	50.4	52.6	57.4	109.5	104.8
2  San Antonio	94.6	15.9	22.7	24.9	74.6	50.4	52.7	56.7	109.4	102.8
3  Miami	93.2	14.6	23.8	25.2	75.5	51.8	52.4	57.3	109.3	100.7
4  Okl City	95.3	14.4	23.2	27.4	73.6	51.3	50.1	56.1	108.6	104.0
5  New York	98.1	14.9	22.4	24.2	71.9	47.9	51.3	56.1	108.3	106.9
6  Houston	96.9	16.2	22.0	27.4	72.7	50.0	50.3	55.0	108.0	106.2
7  LA Lakers	93.4	15.6	22.0	29.2	72.3	51.5	50.2	54.5	107.9	101.3
8  Dallas	93.4	17.0	23.9	24.1	74.8	50.4	52.5	56.5	107.6	102.3
9  Phoenix	96.8	16.2	23.3	23.7	71.6	47.6	52.2	55.9	107.0	107.4
10 Orlando	93.5	14.3	25.0	26.1	76.9	52.1	52.1	55.5	105.7	99.1

The reality is that this team is really capable of playing at a high level if we can get the PG spot handled at a reasonable level of execution. Right now we're getting mediocre to awful play at PG. You don't abandon a successful system just cuz you're struggling at the point. We've seen this happen several times with PG's here. Once they get it, things come together. Duhon, Felton and CB were not perfect fits, but still Mike managed to get a lot out of this team regardless. Gotta hope B. Diddy can get healthy cuz he could thrive in this system.

show us the

[offensive figures] - [defensive figures] = X?

This is a discussion of the offense since that is the part of the game that is struggling most right now. Defensively the team has been playing better this year. We just can't function on offense right now. In our 3 losses we scored 78, 82 and 85 points. That's ridiculously low. For this team not to break 90 points is out of character for the talent we have. If this team can get back to scoring like it usually does and continue to defend like it has they will win a lot of games.

I wouldn't limit the discussion to offensive efficiency. This isn't the NFL. One side isn't for offense and defense (and special teams). Isn't it about scoring more than the other side? I thought I saw historical data used elsewhere in the thread?

upstate wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Rookie wrote:From what I've seen, we've been playing a half court offense. Haven't seen 7 seconds or less yet. How many fast break points have we gotten in the first 5 games?

That is why we need to play Lin some. Both TD and Bibby can't push the damn ball. It is really painful to watch. Both Chandler and Amare are great in the open floor. They should be running these cats.

+1 Lin can push the ball up the court, and hustle and grab rebounds and loose balls, as he has size and speed. I have seen him do this repeatedly throughout his pro career.

Throughout his "PRO" career? Lin?

islesfan wrote:Kevin Bacon as nixluva

As pissed as I am right now, this made me LMAO!!!!!