Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

Nalod wrote:

nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.

Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.

I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.

I am not misunderstanding that at all but you cannot form an opinion based on one season. If you want to, then take a look at what happened to Phoenix after Amare left. That collapse is just as drastic as the Lakers resurgence. So should they cancel each other out? Amare outperformed Pau last year and thats what the rankings in this thread are based on.

Where are you getting the "one season" idea from? The Lakers went from mediocre to championship level for several years. There's no way the two examples are equally dramatic. How many teams have lost multiple key players and then lost 14 more games than the previous season? Many. How many teams after one new acquisition have gone from mediocre deep into the season to championship level for three straight years? Regarding last year, Pau was either comparable to or significantly outperformed (rebounds and assist:turnover ratio) Amare in all categories except PPG, which can be attributed to field goal attempts.

So going by that you believe that Pau is better than Dirk because that applies to Dirk as well!

Also, Amare had more blocks than Pau and has significantly more ppg than Pau. Amare doesn't have as many people to pass to so he averages one less assist a game than Pau! Also, being the main scoring thread Amare has to run forward so that he can be in a better position to score while Pau can stand back and rebound and Kobe can score so he gets only 2 more rebounds per game than Amare. Amare has more ppg and blocks per game but Pau is better because he can pass to Kobe and he can stand back and rebound while Kobe scores. It is amazing how much you dislike Amare. I know you wanted Bosh but come on now!

Pau had a better regular season than Dirk did last year.

So Pau is better than Dirk? He is not and everyone knows it. Dirk only has one ring, Pau has two. By your logic, Pau is better than him because he is also a significantly better rebounder than Dirk.

Regarding the Amare-Pau comparison I'll add the following: Pau is clearly the more efficient offensive player. He shoots a higher percentage and has a much better assist:turnover ratio (you brought up just assists but I've been talking about the assist:turnover ratio, as that's more relevant to offensive efficiency and effectiveness). And Amare's assist:turnover ratio was very bad even in Phoenix when he was privileged to have several all-stars to pass to. Pau is more efficient on offense, a significantly better rebounder, and the blocked shots are quite close although Amare does get a small edge there. Amare when healthy is a very good player. I'm not criticizing him here; I'm just comparing him to a more efficient player with a better track record.

We aren't debating who is the more efficient offensive player. Amare has more turnovers because he has to carry the offensive load. Since he has to score more often than Pau, his assists are lower too! Amare shoots 50% from the field. Thats because the defense is focused on stopping him. Pau shoots 53% when he is being defended man to man. Not that much better at all! Especially since Amare scored 7 more points per game with that FG%! Also, call it what it is man. Pau wasn't a significantly better rebounder than Amare was last year. Kevin Love was a significantly better rebounder. Pau averaged only 2 more assists a game!

Now I think you're just trying to be obnoxious, as you're either arguing against statements I never made or raising points I've already addressed.

Wow, this back and forth has degraded to name calling. All right buddy, Pau is better.

Silverfuel wrote:

STATMELO wrote:I rather have Stoudemire than Gasol. And IMO Stoudemire is better, Stoudemire can take control of games, he is much more explosive scorer and has a better mid-range jumper than Gasol. Gasol is a slightly better passer 3.3 assists to 2.6, a .7 difference. Stoudemire had a slightly lower FG% because he was carrying our team unlike Gasol who takes the back seat to Kobe.

Agreed.

fishmike wrote:

STATMELO wrote:I rather have Stoudemire than Gasol. And IMO Stoudemire is better, Stoudemire can take control of games, he is much more explosive scorer and has a better mid-range jumper than Gasol. Gasol is a slightly better passer 3.3 assists to 2.6, a .7 difference. Stoudemire had a slightly lower FG% because he was carrying our team unlike Gasol who takes the back seat to Kobe.
As for Durant and Melo its hard they are both fantastic scorers I think overall Carmelo is more versatile offensively, he can post up, shoot the mid-range jumper and three ball as well as attack the rim. Carmelo is also much more clutch than Durant. Carmelo is a better rebounder than Durant despite Durant being 6'11". Carmelo is also the better passer. Durant has the edge on D though.
Dirk is too high,yeah he was good in the playoffs but that doesn't make him the 5th best player in the NBA. He's still a terrible defender and rebounder. A lot of people don't like Blake Griffin but the stats don't lie 22 points, 12 rebounds and 4 assists he was the best passing big man in the league last year.

Dirk is a great rebounder. Just watching him. He doesnt get the #s because he's a perimeter player. Anyone that says Dirk isnt a top 5 player hasnt seen more than highlights. He does every little thing to win. Great team player, great effort.

Your Amare vs. Gasol is 100% correct. 2 years ago. When Amare can make it to the end of a season without breaking down this will be true. Bad backs dont go away easy. Anyone who doesnt recognize that Amare may never be the same player isnt paying attention. Its a HUGE concern and as time goes on it will rob him of every ounce of athleticism he once had. God I hope its not true, because he's a joy to watch

Yup... which is why this lockout was hopefully good for Amar'e because God knows he needed the rest. It's very scary knowing that he has recovered from major knee surgeries and now has to worry about a bad back. Another reason I'm on the Dwight Howard bandwagon.

With that said, Amar'e is tough as nails. If anyone can recover from a hurt back, it's him. He's very gifted physically and even mentally. How far can that take someone though?

nixluva wrote:STAT dragged the Suns deep into the playoffs and now we can't give him credit for being that kind of player. Everyone said he was a product of playing with Nash and yet he still got it done with the Knicks and took over as a leader too. Pau is really a great player but I just think Amar'e is feared more and is the more dangerous player. Amar'e has proven he can crank his play up another level when he needs to and I don't believe Pau can reach those heights. That's the most critical difference at that level.

In his dreams Pau wishes he's had some of the bigtime performances that Amar'e has had.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:STAT dragged the Suns deep into the playoffs and now we can't give him credit for being that kind of player. Everyone said he was a product of playing with Nash and yet he still got it done with the Knicks and took over as a leader too. Pau is really a great player but I just think Amar'e is feared more and is the more dangerous player. Amar'e has proven he can crank his play up another level when he needs to and I don't believe Pau can reach those heights. That's the most critical difference at that level.

In his dreams Pau wishes he's had some of the bigtime performances that Amar'e has had.

While Pau has his championship rings on his fingers, I can't imagine that he's dreaming about having some higher scoring individual performances like Amare had (especially when those higher performances come at a lower FG% and with fewer rebounds and assists and more turnovers). You're right about Amare getting the job done here (no one said otherwise). At least, he got the job done well for 3/4 of the first year of his six year contract. I share Fish's concerns about the remaining years.

The thing is the Lakers have KOBE, Odom, Bynum and good role players on those teams! It's not like he was the only important player on that team. Pau could take advantage more single coverage.
Pau being on title teams doesn't mean he's a better player.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:STAT dragged the Suns deep into the playoffs and now we can't give him credit for being that kind of player. Everyone said he was a product of playing with Nash and yet he still got it done with the Knicks and took over as a leader too. Pau is really a great player but I just think Amar'e is feared more and is the more dangerous player. Amar'e has proven he can crank his play up another level when he needs to and I don't believe Pau can reach those heights. That's the most critical difference at that level.

In his dreams Pau wishes he's had some of the bigtime performances that Amar'e has had.

While Pau has his championship rings on his fingers, I can't imagine that he's dreaming about having some higher scoring individual performances like Amare had (especially when those higher performances come at a lower FG% and with fewer rebounds and assists and more turnovers). You're right about Amare getting the job done here (no one said otherwise). At least, he got the job done well for 3/4 of the first year of his six year contract. I share Fish's concerns about the remaining years.

The thing is the Lakers have KOBE, Odom, Bynum and good role players on those teams! It's not like he was the only important player on that team. Pau could take advantage more single coverage.
Pau being on title teams doesn't mean he's a better player.

Just like Amare putting up more total points doesn't mean he's better (yet people favoring Amare can mention nothing other than total points).

It's not just the total points but his impact in games. It's tangible. Look at how immediately we lost leads when he was out of the game last year before the trade. It was like clockwork. Also look at some of his really big performances in the playoffs. Pau had the advantage of a team where he had great support. Just imagine if Amar'e didn't have to log so many minutes at C last year. The Lakers were huge and talented, with loads of experience. The dude is playing with Kobe who already knew how to win a title. You think that isn't a huge part of the reason Pau has a ring? No I can't really count that as a reason to say Pau is better than Amar'e. Statistically they are very close, but where I give Amar'e the edge is in the fact that he has another level he can take his game to and he's demonstrated this on many occasions. Pau doesn't have that gear!!!

Bonn1997 wrote:Sure Kobe knew how to win a championship - as long as Shaq was on his team. Again, Pau took a mediocre team to championship level. Amare has never had as dramatic an impact on a team.

In any event let's stick with the players themselves and compare:

Look at STAT's usage rate for the last 4 years:

         STAT      Gasol
2008     28.2      21.2
2009     24.2      20.4
2010     27.3      21.4
2011     30.9      21.8

This is the active Player PER list
Rank    Player              PER
1. 	LeBron James 	    26.91
2. 	Shaquille O'Neal    26.43
3. 	Dwyane Wade 	    25.65
4. 	Chris Paul 	    25.22
5. 	Tim Duncan 	    24.84
6. 	Dirk Nowitzki 	    23.73
7. 	Kobe Bryant 	    23.53
8. 	Kevin Garnett 	    23.44
9. 	Yao Ming 	    23.02
10. 	Amare Stoudemire    22.59
11. 	Tracy McGrady 	    22.36
12. 	Dwight Howard 	    22.31
13. 	Pau Gasol 	    22.05

STAT's efg% career is .538 Gasol .523

This is the active True Shooting % list
Rank 	Player 	            TS%
1. 	Dwight Howard 	    .6050
2. 	Nene Hilario 	    .6046
3. 	Steve Nash 	    .6045
4. 	Amare Stoudemire    .5994
5. 	Kevin Martin 	    .5989
  	Tyson Chandler 	    .5989
7. 	Yao Ming 	    .5960
8. 	David Lee 	    .5887
9. 	Manu Ginobili 	    .5883
10. 	Shaquille O'Neal    .5858
11. 	Dirk Nowitzki 	    .5825
12. 	Eddy Curry 	    .5812
13. 	Chauncey Billups    .5811
14. 	Corey Maggette 	    .5806
15. 	Pau Gasol 	    .5786