franco12 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:We've got two legit stars in their twenties. We have a throwback 2/3-type rook who has incredible upside. We have a coach who can win as much as any one else we've ever had, given the caliber of team we have now. Is a Van Gundy-type really going to get us to the Finals? How long would it take for the "consequential" concensus to be that he can't coach either?

Pringles has more than one real piece to play with now, hopefully with more on the way. Let's see what a full season looks like.

how many throw away years does MDA get?

4 or 5, i don't think he'll get more.

What other coach with any other franchise has gotten this much?

And that isn't even talking about the Knicks - this is a record at this point.

To be sure, this is a unique situation, is it not? What team has gotten rid of every player except 1 over a 2 year time frame? And over 3 years, only 1 guy has more than 1 year service on team?

That's the context. it's just not record, we all know that.

By all accounts he gets two years of a free pass given the roster changes. This year, he got 10 new players one being a star.

He was over .500 when the trade went down and had the 6th seed.

He was succeeding.

Big ass trade and the team did not melt down and still got the 6th seed with a strong finish.

By all accounts, he did his job and did it well.

Its managing fans expectations and second guessing. AR, Darko, Marbury, etc............Like it or not he earned his teams respect and kept it.

Im watching Miami win on talent. SPolestra gets out of the way and its talent that is winning. Not "coaching".

Miami plays great defense cuz they got great athletes motivated to do it down the stretch.

I saw this from Amare and Carmelo in stretches at seasons end.

MDA is not in any danger this summer and I am sure he'll have goals to hit that gets him an extension if he wants it.

I'd love to steal Barea but there's no way Cuban lets him go. I'm most concerned with who we can get to man the C spot. That's where the team defense can most improve. Who is there that can make a real difference for us and can Donnie get them in here with our limited resources. That's the only real ? going forward. If Donnie succeeds in fixing our big man issue then everything else will fall into place. The coach is the last thing we need to worry about right now. Fix the roster 1st and then you can really evaluate the coach. If you feel you have a roster that can win a title then the only factor left is the coach. But you don't kill the coach when you know the team can't realistically win a title or compete for one.

As for his record. I'm not a fan of DAntoni but I also don't believe you fire coaches everytime they don't overachieve with your squad. He has his flaws but I can't say he's done a bad job here. We've changed the roster 80 times during his tenure and are just now building a team. Despite that, our team has continued to play hard for the man. At this point to fire him is pointless. Eventually this organization needs to build some continuity or else it will be another 40 years before we win a title. We can't change the roster, change the GM, change the coach every 3 years and expect to win anything. Let's continue to build this team and when D'Antoni proves that he can't get anything more out of it, then he should be fired. But firing guys for meeting expectations is the sign of a desperate organization.

Bippity10 wrote:Lotta girly gossip going around about how everyone hates playing for D'Antoni and yet if you watch the games one thing you can never say is that D'Antoni's teams don't play hard. So until I see guys quitting on D'Antoni all this gossip is just that, gossip.

As for his record. I'm not a fan of DAntoni but I also don't believe you fire coaches everytime they don't overachieve with your squad. He has his flaws but I can't say he's done a bad job here. We've changed the roster 80 times during his tenure and are just now building a team. Despite that, our team has continued to play hard for the man. At this point to fire him is pointless. Eventually this organization needs to build some continuity or else it will be another 40 years before we win a title. We can't change the roster, change the GM, change the coach every 3 years and expect to win anything. Let's continue to build this team and when D'Antoni proves that he can't get anything more out of it, then he should be fired. But firing guys for meeting expectations is the sign of a desperate organization.

Bip
I fully agree about the firing /not firing every single coach. That aint my point
Listen when Larry Brown, Wilkens were coaches they got lots less rope with equal or
lesser talent than D'Antoni has had in his tenure (e.g. not withstanding this yr, Melo Amare additions)

I am just making it a point you dont win titles with Mike D'Antoni not preaching all around basketball game facets.
I dont often agree with Barkely and though Charles backtrack on his D'Antoni statements, we all know Charles hates Knicks.
But Barkey is 150% right/correct.
You dont win Or build for NBA championship contending in the "now" NBA with Mike 'stubborn' D'Antoni's system to me.
Only reason he shows some Defense concepts this mid-season was cause he was in NewYork and heard it over & over again.

Doesnt mean Mr D'Antoni believes in it. Of course if Mr D'Antoni had ready made defenders like KGarnett, P.Pierce or the
Celtics roster instead Mike would do a better job. His job this past season was just Ok! A Passing grade C+

The 60-80 times roster changes the knicks evolved in trying to improve the team would hurt any coach,
But realistically its not like D'Antoni didnt have few or significant inputs in some of the players whom
come and gone on Knick rosters and also the drafts (aka Danillo Gallonari).

Remember Knicks signing /going after Bull Guard Chris Duhon as lead PG ? all that was D'Antoni selling us that
Knicks can improve and win few games with Duhon. Duhon a nice guy and one of worst stints as PG ever in NYK uniform,
Chris could not wait to get outta NY !

I'm reasonable also not to blame every single facet of Knicks issues and slow rise back to respectability all on Mike.
No coach can be blamed for everything.

Around here D'Antoni got praise for decent Knick play (22-15 record in December 2010) and very little flak for any downfalls of Knicks
Larry Brown, Zeke,Lenny and all prior Knick coaches got plenty oY gripe from NY media more than D'Antoni got in his 3rd yr here.

Where I dont & wont give D'Antoni slack is when he took on Knick Fans in consective seasons before and after MELO was brought here.
D'Antoni tells NY fans to "calm down" and states the fans affected Knicks performances on court. Later after Knicks plummetted
before the big Denver-Knick trade D'Antoni took too fans blaming NY Fans for booing his team at home.

Knicks fans actually BOOED efforts & Mike should know what NY was all about is reason why fans ain't warm to Mr. Arizona Sunshine.
Throw in fact he doesnt OR wont prioritize "D"efense in his game schemes and stops at end of games.

New york and most pro sports are built on defense as well as scoring to compete at high levels.
I do not see Mr D'Antoni as ever changing with the times regarding bring in a defensive minded assistants coach
or making defense some priority in running the ballclub, thus Knicks will improve but not get to next elite levels
with this type of coach that D'Antoni presents.

CrushAlot wrote:Here is a description of D'Antoni's offense from an article in Bleacher Report today:

Is he the right coach for this team?

Can we win a championship with him as our coach?

Does he coach defense?

Now, before this goes any further, realize something about Mike D'Antoni. He is not an Xs and Os coach. Coaches like Avery Johnson or Gregg Popovich, who won championships with the Spurs, like to control the game. Half-court sets, play-calling, rigidity and no negotiation.

Mike D'Antoni is quite the opposite. Essentially, he teaches his players an offensive philosophy and gives them the freedom and opportunity to create plays for themselves and for one another. The ball has energy, and that energy finds motion. It's a loose style that will only be as successful as its personnel. Smart players that can pass well, move without the ball, hit open jumpers (which, mind you, are created by the philosophy and playing style) are those that thrive in the system.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/719398-ny-knicks-what-would-constitute-successful-season-for-mike-dantoni-in-2011-12

I get very frustrated when I hear vets saying there are no set plays and that the coach has a philosophy where players create for themselves. I have to wonder what is worked on in practice and what exactly the coach does. When your mantra is other teams have to adjust to you, it has the advantage of letting you off the hook in preparing for other teams. Most negative quotes attributed to D'Antoni's style and competence have been dismissed because the players have stayed anonymous in NY. However, Grant Hill was quoted on D'Antoni's practices shortly after D'Antoni left Phoenix. Hill said, "Sometimes we even practice for 45 minutes."

don't you think it's kind of weird to critique a coach who runs just about the most offensively efficient team in the league? Why wouldn't an article concentrate on the defensive end?

I wonder if Riley with Showtime was rigid or not rigid.

And let's be honest, rigid Avery got nothing done in New Jersey, same with Skiles in Milwaulkee or Brown in Charlotte. Perhaps it has to do with talent?

Nalod wrote:What is the benchmark for the season then?

It took two years to clean the roster, we failed at the "Lebron-a-Thon", still rebuild a nice team and:

1. Have winning season

2. Make playoffs

3. Added Second Star Attraction

4 Justify raising ticket prices.

5. Lower payroll and increase revenue.

As an organization it fulfilled its goals and provided quantifiable improvement.

So what is the goal do you think? What should we deem a successful season?

1. 50 wins.

2. Second round of playoffs.

These will no doubt provide some statistical improvements. Do you say "rank better defensively"? Won't 50 wins provide that?

Im all for better defense but really we all want the same thing: More wins!

nykshaknbake wrote:We were not the most offensively efficient team in the league.

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Here is a description of D'Antoni's offense from an article in Bleacher Report today:

Is he the right coach for this team?

Can we win a championship with him as our coach?

Does he coach defense?

Now, before this goes any further, realize something about Mike D'Antoni. He is not an Xs and Os coach. Coaches like Avery Johnson or Gregg Popovich, who won championships with the Spurs, like to control the game. Half-court sets, play-calling, rigidity and no negotiation.

Mike D'Antoni is quite the opposite. Essentially, he teaches his players an offensive philosophy and gives them the freedom and opportunity to create plays for themselves and for one another. The ball has energy, and that energy finds motion. It's a loose style that will only be as successful as its personnel. Smart players that can pass well, move without the ball, hit open jumpers (which, mind you, are created by the philosophy and playing style) are those that thrive in the system.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/719398-ny-knicks-what-would-constitute-successful-season-for-mike-dantoni-in-2011-12

I get very frustrated when I hear vets saying there are no set plays and that the coach has a philosophy where players create for themselves. I have to wonder what is worked on in practice and what exactly the coach does. When your mantra is other teams have to adjust to you, it has the advantage of letting you off the hook in preparing for other teams. Most negative quotes attributed to D'Antoni's style and competence have been dismissed because the players have stayed anonymous in NY. However, Grant Hill was quoted on D'Antoni's practices shortly after D'Antoni left Phoenix. Hill said, "Sometimes we even practice for 45 minutes."

don't you think it's kind of weird to critique a coach who runs just about the most offensively efficient team in the league? Why wouldn't an article concentrate on the defensive end?

I wonder if Riley with Showtime was rigid or not rigid.

And let's be honest, rigid Avery got nothing done in New Jersey, same with Skiles in Milwaulkee or Brown in Charlotte. Perhaps it has to do with talent?

right, that's why I said "just about the most offensively efficient team in the league".

Knicks were 5th, right behind Denver, SA, Heat, OKC. Not much difference between those teams.

DJMUSIC wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Lotta girly gossip going around about how everyone hates playing for D'Antoni and yet if you watch the games one thing you can never say is that D'Antoni's teams don't play hard. So until I see guys quitting on D'Antoni all this gossip is just that, gossip.

As for his record. I'm not a fan of DAntoni but I also don't believe you fire coaches everytime they don't overachieve with your squad. He has his flaws but I can't say he's done a bad job here. We've changed the roster 80 times during his tenure and are just now building a team. Despite that, our team has continued to play hard for the man. At this point to fire him is pointless. Eventually this organization needs to build some continuity or else it will be another 40 years before we win a title. We can't change the roster, change the GM, change the coach every 3 years and expect to win anything. Let's continue to build this team and when D'Antoni proves that he can't get anything more out of it, then he should be fired. But firing guys for meeting expectations is the sign of a desperate organization.

Bip
I fully agree about the firing /not firing every single coach. That aint my point
Listen when Larry Brown, Wilkens were coaches they got lots less rope with equal or
lesser talent than D'Antoni has had in his tenure (e.g. not withstanding this yr, Melo Amare additions)

I am just making it a point you dont win titles with Mike D'Antoni not preaching all around basketball game facets.
I dont often agree with Barkely and though Charles backtrack on his D'Antoni statements, we all know Charles hates Knicks.
But Barkey is 150% right/correct.
You dont win Or build for NBA championship contending in the "now" NBA with Mike 'stubborn' D'Antoni's system to me.
Only reason he shows some Defense concepts this mid-season was cause he was in NewYork and heard it over & over again.

Doesnt mean Mr D'Antoni believes in it. Of course if Mr D'Antoni had ready made defenders like KGarnett, P.Pierce or the
Celtics roster instead Mike would do a better job. His job this past season was just Ok! A Passing grade C+

The 60-80 times roster changes the knicks evolved in trying to improve the team would hurt any coach,
But realistically its not like D'Antoni didnt have few or significant inputs in some of the players whom
come and gone on Knick rosters and also the drafts (aka Danillo Gallonari).

Remember Knicks signing /going after Bull Guard Chris Duhon as lead PG ? all that was D'Antoni selling us that
Knicks can improve and win few games with Duhon. Duhon a nice guy and one of worst stints as PG ever in NYK uniform,
Chris could not wait to get outta NY !

I'm reasonable also not to blame every single facet of Knicks issues and slow rise back to respectability all on Mike.
No coach can be blamed for everything.

Around here D'Antoni got praise for decent Knick play (22-15 record in December 2010) and very little flak for any downfalls of Knicks
Larry Brown, Zeke,Lenny and all prior Knick coaches got plenty oY gripe from NY media more than D'Antoni got in his 3rd yr here.

Where I dont & wont give D'Antoni slack is when he took on Knick Fans in consective seasons before and after MELO was brought here.
D'Antoni tells NY fans to "calm down" and states the fans affected Knicks performances on court. Later after Knicks plummetted
before the big Denver-Knick trade D'Antoni took too fans blaming NY Fans for booing his team at home.

Knicks fans actually BOOED efforts & Mike should know what NY was all about is reason why fans ain't warm to Mr. Arizona Sunshine.
Throw in fact he doesnt OR wont prioritize "D"efense in his game schemes and stops at end of games.

New york and most pro sports are built on defense as well as scoring to compete at high levels.
I do not see Mr D'Antoni as ever changing with the times regarding bring in a defensive minded assistants coach
or making defense some priority in running the ballclub, thus Knicks will improve but not get to next elite levels
with this type of coach that D'Antoni presents.

You and I aren't way apart on this, but allow me to respond

1.)Larry Brown did not deserve to be fired for the record of the team, because they were horrible. He did deserve to be fired for his conduct, the turmoil and his attempted coup(even if I thought he was right). Lenny Wilkens did not deserve to be fired. It was a ridiculous move by Isiah. That firing is part of the problem we've had here in NY. These knee jerk reactions are stupid and do nothing for us. Just like firing D'Antoni AT THIS POINT IN TIME would. It would be a firing for firing sake, to test someone else out.

2.) I agree with you. We need to have a defensive component if we are to ultimately win a title. Agree wholeheartedly. I predict this is why D'Antoni will eventually be replaced. But that time is not now. Not sure I care why eh started showing defensive concepts mid-season. As long as he does it, I don't care what the reasons are.

3.) I thought D'Antoni had poor moments in the postseason. Doesn't mean he should be fired for it. His undermanned team, that apparently hates him, played their asses off for him.

4.) Not sure what D'Antoni's input has to do with anything. The fact is that he has not had a roster/rotation stick for more then 3 months. Tough to coach under those condidtions. Danny Ainge and Doc both admitted that trading Perkins during the season was an awful move, that it ruined their continuity. AND THAT WAS JUST ONE PLAYER! We traded our whole team 2 or 3 times under D'Antoni's watch.

5.) You were sold on Duhon? You should be ashamed. Duhon was signed for two years(to coincide with the Lebron sweepstakes) there was no misconceptions on my end that the team thought he was the guard of the future. It appeared they were giving him 2 years to see if he could be a starter, but had no ties to him long-term. As for Chris clamoring to get out of here. I think the feeling was mutual.

6.) I have seen very few positive articles about D'Antoni. Every article for the past few months has been about his possible replacements. What are you missing?

7.) So the calling for D'Antoni's firing seems to be based on personal feelings more then anythign else. It's not that we expected him to win a many more games then he has, it's that we don't like how he talks to us? Come on.

8.) FYI: New York fans boo everyteam that plays in NY. Championship Yankee teams have gotten boo'd. This is no reflection on Mike. Until fans start yelling "fire D'Antoni" the booing is inconsequential. As is D'Antoni's response to it. He's protecting his team. If you don't like it, show up to the next game and boo some more. Doesn't make his reaction wrong. And for the record at the beginning of the season when we were regularly booing a team with an average age of 15, that was playing their asses off, it was stupid and not helpful.

9.) Defense, defense, defense. We all know his teams are not good defensively. I'm with you. If he can't get us to the next level because of his defense then he deserves to go. I have no ties to the man, and are okay with that. But, that time is not now. Until this man underachieves you can't fire him. It's pointless. It's just another firing in NY's 40 year run without a title. We will find the right coach, but as an organization it can't be every time we don't like the guys style or personality. It has to be for valid on the court reasons, or mutiny.

Again I aint saying fire MDA, he'll have his Oct. 2011 full camp.

But he did endorse C.Duhon despite Marbury's wicked ways.
DUHON chosen PG starter for Knicks.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/item_QzBgj6nlPhIdMHc1Tv2sNK

Only thing I've ever agreed somewhat with coach Mike is Marbury and his attitudes
and stale 'me me me' had to go, outta NY. He (steph) was the last legit PG we had
to run an offense.

One gripe I had with coach Mike is when he was in Phoenix and took on S.Kerr (then pres/gm)
regarding the Shaq Oneal trade. Shaq came in stated "This is Steve Nash's team" & blended
better in 2nd season than 1st season. Shaq had more in his tank then left, recently retired 6/1

How can you have any issues with legit star Shaq O'neal ?
Oh I've forgot Mike D doesnt not like the slow down game O'Neal presents to his system & also
don't like BIGs period is word on street. Look that up, D'Antoni idea of a pivotman is B.Diaw
Marion Or likes of David Lee <tweener> since each can run the floor which is primary concern of
coach Mike D'Antoni. Doesnt care about post in paint game, too boring and not his wishes to run
a team built on banging and inside/ outside play.

Another gripe which led to D'Antoni departure was Phoenix wish to hire a defensive bench coach to
work for D'Antoni whom strongly opposed this. Thus he left OR was fired whom knows ? How can you
now let yourself hire a defensive coach is beyond me! Otherwise for D'Antoni devout love for Phil Webber
and his brother Dan D'Antoni which is most useful on OFFENSE and practically 125% useless on DEFENSE.
I'll leave Herb Williams outta this contention discussion

2 strikes for me da-DJ !
Look we as fans all gives this guy a chance, he is getting his chance. He got Amare and Melo whether he
likes it all OR not.

However this isnt the Europe league anymore where D'antoni won titles. Its not NBA Phoenix Sun-land where coach Mike
won many times over 50+ games , many playoff runs.

He's running his NY Knick business with same "un yielding ways" despite talent lacking which been
upgraded in last 2 yrs before big MELO trades and Amare FA signings.

Sure fans been rough on D'Antoni, maybe some unfair buts its NEWYORK. Torre was criticized & had 4 or so MLB titles.

Sure I Am not an D'Antoni fan. But when his contract is up nxt season coming about 2011/12 after next
it will be 5 yrs ?

I am very sorry I dont see D'Antoni adjusting to the "now" NBA and I think 5 yrs we will see what
Knicks do in next 1-2 yrs since D'Antoni will be here & isnt going anywhere. I am not impressed by
coach Mike. I am not shocked some players whom busted their tails said things private anonymously on
Mike. Seems like the players coach tag is Gone forever.

This man got to get some results in his contract yrs remaining.
He needs a defense coach and if he gonna refute that he will NOT win in NY nor get contract $extension he seeks to keep him happy.
D'Antoni doesnt seem to think he needs a specialist coach. Give Mike ready made guys like Ibaka OR KGarnett where he doesnt have
to fret on defender schemes then any of us can "coach" NY Knicks at that stage.

All in all Knicks are on rise, I agree with your points but I see Coach Mike D on his way out of here and that is more fact to me, We'd all be shocked if pieces were in place and this coach is the one whom will lead our NY Knicks ballclub to a eastern conf. championship game OR even playing in a final.

I've seen enough of Coach Mike D'Antoni and I'm expressing simply those views of many newyorkers & Knick fans abroad.
He's a nice guy but he hasnt always been FAN warm or friendly ..either long before any real criticism came.
Mike as_sted and helped Eddy "big" Curry tank and finish off his career when Eddy had some paint game, post moves and needed
confidence he wasn't ever ever ever gonna get from Mike D'Antoni's staff. Oh forgot D'Antoni do not like BIG Men as Nate McMillan
once stated to the press.

HOOPSWORLD
Nate McMillan on Mike D'Antoni during Basketball Olympics
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=7757

sincerley ..Chow

nixluva wrote:The one thing that we haven't seen is this coach running this team with a proper PG. THE MOST IMPORTANT position for what he wants to do. The closest we got was Felton and he had a ton of flaws but at least he was coming along. Felton IMO was a glimpse at what things could be like if you put a capable PG in this system. We need a QB and just think about how frustrating it was to watch TD come into games and basically run the offense into the ground! It was the best visual proof of how much of an impact it can have when you don't have a capable PG in there. Billups wasn't a great fit but when he was healthy you could see that it made an impact. Just think that was us going from an OK PG to a poor one. Imagine how good the team would look with a GOOD PG in there for 35 mins a game!!! We've got the weapons but no one at the trigger to make sure we fire straight and hit the target!!!

Then we also have the big hole at Center!!! If and when we actually fill those roster spots with capable players, I don't think there's any way this team isn't a big winner and going deep into the playoffs.

I would love to fill both needs thru free agency, Dalambert at the center spot and Sessions for PG. We could then scoop up two, maybe three picks in the draft. We're on our way