CrushAlot wrote:Martin I get what you are saying in regards to D'Antoni. I did not like the hire from day 1 because I think a coach that leaves a job rather than address his deficencies in coaching defense is too stubborn and doesn't see the big picture of the game in my opinion. D'Antoni came in with that reputation. He also came in with the reputation of a coach who doesn't like practice and doesn't scout other teams. His reasoning for that is that his team runs so much they need rest and other teams have to adjust to his team. As a Knick fan used to coaches who obsess about every possession and don't sleep because they are over analyzing opponents, I have a hard time relating to a philosophy which in my opinion requires a lot less work and preperation on the coaches part. D'Antoni also had the reputation of not playing or developing young players. I know that he played Fields this year but the year to develop guys was last year when the Knicks were not competing for anything and had two first round picks on the roster. It appeared that D'Antoni could not be bothered coaching those guys and instead chose the easy way out and played good guys with marginal talent that knew how to play because they were vets. D'Antoni also came in with the rep of not wanting any confrontations with players. Again it appeared that some guys with talent that might have needed a bit more from the coach or were just knuckleheads were not dealt with by him and guys with great character but marginal talent were used in their place. If the Knicks had not had coaches in the past that could work with Spree, Mase and other talents and egos it might be easier to excuse. I just don't see it with D'Antoni. When his players are saying they don't have set plays on offense and you know they don't work on defense, how can you defend him?

couple of things: Let's call it like you have said it: You have a predisposed dislike for MDA before he came to the Knicks, a lot of which was not based on anything you observed on the court or based on outcome of what you could gather from watching games when he was in PHO. I would further say that his reputation was that of a very gifted offensive coach and one who did not put emphasis on defense.

Some of the predispositions that seem to come from rumor:
- No practices
- No scouting
- Not playing, developing rookies/ young players
- No playing centers (I assume this is on the list even though you do not mention).

For the first 2, let's call it: maybe it did happen, maybe it didn't happen, no way to prove what really went on. We have no idea how much practice time any team has, what the injury state of players are such that practice is even a reasonable consideration. We also have zero clue as to what money, time and resources teams actually put into advanced scouting. We do know that the Knicks use scouting, but who really cares. We also know that the Knicks probably didn't practice very much in March, but who really cares about that either.

Playing no rookies/young players: Name the young players on PHO that MDA did not play? I can name some who did (not all of whom are strictly rookies but are young guys): Barbosa, Amare, Diaw, Joe Johnson, James Jones. I don't think you can list 1 young guy who was on his PHO rosters who deserved playing time. None.

And what about those elusive Centers. Is it such that MDA piped up against moving his current roster every time his GM had a trade for a decent center (perhaps trading away Diaw or Marion) or was it such that his GM never made any move? (and what about a backup PG who could give Nash some minutes? Why didn't GM make that move to solidify team?) MDA played Shaq. MDA wanted so desperately to play Moz that he started him too early and then went back to him. What other centers are there?

I think I can name some very top level coaches who both did not play rookies and who also leaned on rookies a lot. Pop: played Tony Parker at tender age of 19, also sat Splitter this whole season even when he was resting Tim Duncan for the whole year (bet Duncan didn't practice much this year either). MDA sits TD for a lot of last year and played Fields all of this year. Question: even though we see that TD can't seem to run a system or PnR this year and we know he was much worse last year... he still should have started him or played heavy minutes without earning them or when he was ready/comfortable with system? Do recall that management wants desperately to trade JJ, Curry and wants to pump up the values of Lee, Chandler, Gallo to attract LeBron; you just can't do that while also playing TD heavy minutes. Further, was NY really in a position to lose every game by playing Hill, TD heaving minutes and watch their draft pick go up to high lotto? Wasn't Donnie stressing that his teams goal was to win games and make playoffs? More young players that MDA played at the expense of vets: Chandler, Gallo; how come you seem to forget those guys?

I have no problem seeing arguments that pin some bad things on MDA's defense. Let me ask you though: during his time in PHO, his teams have no centers, Amare playing for only 2 of the 4 years, and Nash as the starting PG. They rank somewhere in the 13-16 range or some places very close to that. What do you think of this take:

http://blog.bandwagonknick.com/2011/04/25/celtics-101-knicks-89.aspx?ref=rss

One thing to keep in mind. Look at the top 15 teams ranked by defensive efficiency over at Hoopdata. Every team has a player that protects the rim capably, and in the case of Miami and Philadelphia (where that's debatable), they have elite wing defenders. The Knicks have neither. Even in Phoenix when D'Antoni had a defense ranked around 13th to 15th, he had Shawn Marion and Raja Bell that guarded multiple positions well. D'Antoni has never had a strong interior defender in this three years in New York -- Turiaf is the closest, but he showed all season (and in this series) that he can't stay healthy. And his best wing defenders got traded to Denver for you-know-who.

Same coach.

Variables? Of course they matter. They do for all teams.

We got better without changing coach.

Juice wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:I've been meaning to ask in a post if it means anything that we got swept.

I mean, pretty amazing that the knicks were the only team swept.

at full health, for sure. No Billups and almost no Amare? meaningless for me.

As Knicks fans I'm sure we'd both agree that Stat and Melo > Paul and West.

With that said, we lost Amare and they lost West. But they played a better team and still managed to win 2 games and we won 0.

Why is that excusable to you?

If we hadn't played our absolute worst games at home after such a long drought maybe just maybe we could find ways to silver line but

How did the Bulls win 60+ games losing Noah and Boozer for 25-30% of the season?

How are the Grizzlies up on the Spurs without Gay?

How did the Blazers win 50+gms with Roy out for 40% of the season and injuries to Camby/Oden?

Chicago did it by being #1 in OPP FG%

Memphis did it by being #14 in OPP FG%

Portland did it by being #7 in OPP PPG.

So basically, you can't be 26th like D'antoni's Knicks.

Marv wrote:what do we lose continuity-wise if we sever mda? what does he have established with these players?

a reason to have close-minded, 1-sided arguments for the next 5 month? Otherwise we got nada to talk about

Are these people just bored and bull****ting around? Or is there actually some truth to it?

Playing no rookies/young players: Name the young players on PHO that MDA did not play?

martin wrote:

Marv wrote:what do we lose continuity-wise if we sever mda? what does he have established with these players?

a reason to have close-minded, 1-sided arguments for the next 5 month? Otherwise we got nada to talk about

i'm looking forward to briggs' threads on "how do we find out which knick employee make our draft pick and how do we get him fired"

Juice wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Playing no rookies/young players: Name the young players on PHO that MDA did not play?

D'Antoni was involved in the Suns draft process from 04-07. During that time every first round pick Phoenix had was traded before ever playing in a Suns uniform including Rondo and Deng.

great piece of info on

Refer to NBAdraft.net for backup of sources of draft or Wiki(if you trust the data)

Refer to USA Today NBA Salaries to see when players received their contracts from this time period

Yeah I made a post touching on this in another thread not too many places below this one I believe

- Now the supporters will say it was because of a couple reasons..... the owner was in cost cutting mode and/or the team was too deep to infuse draft talent.

Well one of those trains of thought were debunked because during this time.....

-Q-Rich/Nash/Stat/Marion/Johnson/Diaw/Barbosa/Bell were all offered contracts/extensions(some didn't work out).

Now Q-Rich and Nash came at the onset but the others weren't.... add up the money. I'm not going to sit here and say there was NO interest in putting cash back into the pockets of the owner but it was no more so a hold on the team giving away draft assets as it was knowing the man calling the shots from the bench not utilizing them because of the tight rotations and his position on young players.

- Of all their picks, acquired picks(1rst and 2nd), I believe there were like 12 in total(3 lottery by my count.....lulz @ Pringles)) from 2004 to 2007 they only kept guards NO BIGS....lo and behold when he up and quit in 2008 they drafted(Robin Lopez), a big. They drafted Marcin Gortat in 2005 traded him to Orlando for cash he was the 57th pick......lo and behold D'AnToni is no longer around they reacquire Gortat via trade from Orlando 2011 deadline a big.

- The other debunked in this sense... some of the talent they gave up(Deng/Gortat/Rondo) played or are playing pivotal roles on contending teams 1 of them has a ring already. One other had an important role on playoff team(Fernandez).

They did acquire Kurt Thomas during this time(2005) but traded to Seattle along with 2 1rst round picks 2yrs later....lulz @ Pringles again....<--------This was the only move I can see where cost cutting applies because by that time everyone already had their money and they were finished

The more you dig up this evidence/proof the supporters rather not address it

Where there's Smoke there's a Volcano

Gortat is still nothing special. He's a good backup but let's not get crazy. Who knows what he looked like back then. Sure Gortat looks like a pretty good player now, but how do we know he showed any real promise back then?

Deng is a good player, not a superstar, but solid. I don't know how the team felt he would fit into their plans. It's easy to look back at it now and make up any reasoning for why he wasn't kept, but you're only making conjecture biased by your dislike for Mike.

Rondo surprised a LOT of people. Remember how much doubt there was as to his ability to run the Celtics. He developed into a far better player than anyone expected. NO ONE saw this coming. I give the kid credit for all the hard work he's put in to become a very good player and one of the top PG's in the league. But let's just be real here. The way he was coming out of college it's easy to see why Mike wouldn't really be that enthused about him. He couldn't shoot and barely knew how to run a team.

Winning teams frequently don't show patience to wait on guys to develop. They're in the hunt for a title and need to try and find players that can get it down right now. That's almost always the case with players that need to develop a lot coming out of college or H.S.

Good try tho. The way you put your evidence together was almost compelling.

nixluva wrote:

Juice wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Playing no rookies/young players: Name the young players on PHO that MDA did not play?

D'Antoni was involved in the Suns draft process from 04-07. During that time every first round pick Phoenix had was traded before ever playing in a Suns uniform including Rondo and Deng.

great piece of info on

Refer to NBAdraft.net for backup of sources of draft or Wiki(if you trust the data)

Refer to USA Today NBA Salaries to see when players received their contracts from this time period

Yeah I made a post touching on this in another thread not too many places below this one I believe

- Now the supporters will say it was because of a couple reasons..... the owner was in cost cutting mode and/or the team was too deep to infuse draft talent.

Well one of those trains of thought were debunked because during this time.....

-Q-Rich/Nash/Stat/Marion/Johnson/Diaw/Barbosa/Bell were all offered contracts/extensions(some didn't work out).

Now Q-Rich and Nash came at the onset but the others weren't.... add up the money. I'm not going to sit here and say there was NO interest in putting cash back into the pockets of the owner but it was no more so a hold on the team giving away draft assets as it was knowing the man calling the shots from the bench not utilizing them because of the tight rotations and his position on young players.

- Of all their picks, acquired picks(1rst and 2nd), I believe there were like 12 in total(3 lottery by my count.....lulz @ Pringles)) from 2004 to 2007 they only kept guards NO BIGS....lo and behold when he up and quit in 2008 they drafted(Robin Lopez), a big. They drafted Marcin Gortat in 2005 traded him to Orlando for cash he was the 57th pick......lo and behold D'AnToni is no longer around they reacquire Gortat via trade from Orlando 2011 deadline a big.

- The other debunked in this sense... some of the talent they gave up(Deng/Gortat/Rondo) played or are playing pivotal roles on contending teams 1 of them has a ring already. One other had an important role on playoff team(Fernandez).

They did acquire Kurt Thomas during this time(2005) but traded to Seattle along with 2 1rst round picks 2yrs later....lulz @ Pringles again....<--------This was the only move I can see where cost cutting applies because by that time everyone already had their money and they were finished

The more you dig up this evidence/proof the supporters rather not address it

Where there's Smoke there's a Volcano

Gortat is still nothing special. He's a good backup but let's not get crazy. Who knows what he looked like back then. Sure Gortat looks like a pretty good player now, but how do we know he showed any real promise back then?

Deng is a good player, not a superstar, but solid. I don't know how the team felt he would fit into their plans. It's easy to look back at it now and make up any reasoning for why he wasn't kept, but you're only making conjecture biased by your dislike for Mike.

Rondo surprised a LOT of people. Remember how much doubt there was as to his ability to run the Celtics. He developed into a far better player than anyone expected. NO ONE saw this coming. I give the kid credit for all the hard work he's put in to become a very good player and one of the top PG's in the league. But let's just be real here. The way he was coming out of college it's easy to see why Mike wouldn't really be that enthused about him. He couldn't shoot and barely knew how to run a team.

Winning teams frequently don't show patience to wait on guys to develop. They're in the hunt for a title and need to try and find players that can get it down right now. That's almost always the case with players that need to develop a lot coming out of college or H.S.

Good try tho. The way you put your evidence together was almost compelling.

I agree with you that some teams opt to use their picks to get vets. It is interesting though that Phoenix did it for four straight drafts while D'Antoni was there and gave up a lot of talent.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Juice wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Playing no rookies/young players: Name the young players on PHO that MDA did not play?

D'Antoni was involved in the Suns draft process from 04-07. During that time every first round pick Phoenix had was traded before ever playing in a Suns uniform including Rondo and Deng.

great piece of info on

Refer to NBAdraft.net for backup of sources of draft or Wiki(if you trust the data)

Refer to USA Today NBA Salaries to see when players received their contracts from this time period

Yeah I made a post touching on this in another thread not too many places below this one I believe

- Now the supporters will say it was because of a couple reasons..... the owner was in cost cutting mode and/or the team was too deep to infuse draft talent.

Well one of those trains of thought were debunked because during this time.....

-Q-Rich/Nash/Stat/Marion/Johnson/Diaw/Barbosa/Bell were all offered contracts/extensions(some didn't work out).

Now Q-Rich and Nash came at the onset but the others weren't.... add up the money. I'm not going to sit here and say there was NO interest in putting cash back into the pockets of the owner but it was no more so a hold on the team giving away draft assets as it was knowing the man calling the shots from the bench not utilizing them because of the tight rotations and his position on young players.

- Of all their picks, acquired picks(1rst and 2nd), I believe there were like 12 in total(3 lottery by my count.....lulz @ Pringles)) from 2004 to 2007 they only kept guards NO BIGS....lo and behold when he up and quit in 2008 they drafted(Robin Lopez), a big. They drafted Marcin Gortat in 2005 traded him to Orlando for cash he was the 57th pick......lo and behold D'AnToni is no longer around they reacquire Gortat via trade from Orlando 2011 deadline a big.

- The other debunked in this sense... some of the talent they gave up(Deng/Gortat/Rondo) played or are playing pivotal roles on contending teams 1 of them has a ring already. One other had an important role on playoff team(Fernandez).

They did acquire Kurt Thomas during this time(2005) but traded to Seattle along with 2 1rst round picks 2yrs later....lulz @ Pringles again....<--------This was the only move I can see where cost cutting applies because by that time everyone already had their money and they were finished

The more you dig up this evidence/proof the supporters rather not address it

Where there's Smoke there's a Volcano

Gortat is still nothing special. He's a good backup but let's not get crazy. Who knows what he looked like back then. Sure Gortat looks like a pretty good player now, but how do we know he showed any real promise back then?

Deng is a good player, not a superstar, but solid. I don't know how the team felt he would fit into their plans. It's easy to look back at it now and make up any reasoning for why he wasn't kept, but you're only making conjecture biased by your dislike for Mike.

Rondo surprised a LOT of people. Remember how much doubt there was as to his ability to run the Celtics. He developed into a far better player than anyone expected. NO ONE saw this coming. I give the kid credit for all the hard work he's put in to become a very good player and one of the top PG's in the league. But let's just be real here. The way he was coming out of college it's easy to see why Mike wouldn't really be that enthused about him. He couldn't shoot and barely knew how to run a team.

Winning teams frequently don't show patience to wait on guys to develop. They're in the hunt for a title and need to try and find players that can get it down right now. That's almost always the case with players that need to develop a lot coming out of college or H.S.

Good try tho. The way you put your evidence together was almost compelling.

I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that Deng, Gortat and Rondo aren't really good players? I would have to disagree with that. Deng is a very good player, close to all star level talent and I think Gortat was a huge addition for Phoenix. I know he was starting there and when he was a backup it was because he played behind Howard.

I agree with you that some teams opt to use their picks to get vets. It is interesting though that Phoenix did it for four straight drafts while D'Antoni was there and gave up a lot of talent.