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1st round of playoffs and “the trade”
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fishmike
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4/28/2011  5:11 PM
Silverfuel wrote:
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:Name the last championship caliber all star that didn't have a few good players around him.
Lebron JAmes

He wasn't championship caliber. You just proved my point of needing very good players around a star player to win a championship.

oh... so we are back to the Marbury is just as good as Kidd because neither have rings arguement?

Lebron James went to a finals. He went to the ECF finals. He won playoff series. He did it will Anderson Varejao and Mo Williams and guys like that. He had deep playoff runs. Melo never has except once his teams were always less talented then Melo's.

Lebron isnt championship caliber? But your saying Melo is? What ARE you saying? What point did I just prove? Curious to hear this one...


This is very very unfair. Lebron got to the ECF through the weak East. Melo played in the West when it was a powerhouse seeds 1 through 8.
Which would bring me back to the first arguement regarding Melo vs. MDA and how they are judged

MDA's system will never win because he doesnt care about defense and just chucks. But that system got the Suns to the Western Conference finals playing Boris Diaw at center in the stacked west as you called it (I agree it is). Meanwhile Melo is given all the credit for "leading" the Nuggets to multiple 50 win seasons, but the guy cant "lead" them out of the first round.

This has me labeled an MDA apologist and Melo hater, but my arguement is whats fair for MDA should be fair for Melo.

And Silver I agree on the West vs. East.

Its not fair, and you look at the Nuggets playoff history and there isnt a series where you say damn... Nuggs should have won that, but this is sports and Melo is a superstar and he's supposed to come up big when it counts and he's yet to do that.

That being said Melo has been a very average playoff performer, if you look at the whole body of work.

To sum up:
I thought Melo played poorly (over all) for the Boston series (thus the D grade)
I did not like or support the trade. I thought we overpaid and Walsh was undermined. We gave up cap space and picks and young players for a guy who was a FA, wanted to be here and we had the jack to sign him.
I do like Melo as a player. Like him very much, but he's got a lot to prove if he wants to be considered among the NBA elite.
I think we will win 55 games next year with a moderatly improved supporting cast and healthy Amare + Melo
I will believe we can be an elite team w/ Melo when I see him outplay whoever, and the Knicks advance a round or two.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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fishmike
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4/28/2011  5:16 PM
Silverfuel wrote:Oh yeah, he wasn't his regular Melo self in the 2nd half of Game 1 but I think it is unrealistic to expect him to dominate every single game. If you think he should dominate every single game then we have nothing to talk about.

It is amazing how much you expect from Melo and how much of a pass you have given our other players in the present and in the past.

what players have I given a pass to in the past?

why is it amazing to expect a lot from a 26 year old player making $20mm, going to all star games that we just traded half the roster, picks and cap space for?

And he was 2 shots from earning a very high grade from me. Fair or not thats sports. Thats what changes perception.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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4/28/2011  5:19 PM
Marv wrote:I’d say it was a mixed performance - some fantastic and some disappointing.

Game 1 I saw differently from you. Fantastic 1st half. Terrible 2nd half. He got those 2 early fouls including that bogus offensive foul and had to sit a bunch. Came back just on fire. 12 1st-half points, I think all in the 2nd quarter. Tenacious D. I remember at least 2 times he hounded guys into coughing up the ball. He was all over the place, led the team to a 12 point halftime lead. Every thing we would have wanted from him. 2nd half – terrible. Kept bombing and missing. Like you said – should have taken it to the hole.

Game 2 was one of the all-time great performances ever by a knick. Good lord, 42 points on 14-30 and 4-8 3’s and 10-11 ft’s, 17 boards, 6 assists, 2 blocks and ONE TURNOVOVER. good lord. At one point in the 4th he had scored 13 in a row and 18 of 20. and that nimrod jeffries spoiled his Jordan moment by bobbling the ball. 

game 3 horrible. But at least he did grab 11 boards, handed out 6 assists and got 8 trips to the line. And he held his 3’s down, going 1 for 3. but his shooting was abominable and he didn’t do enough work inside.

Game 4 great. 32 and 9 with 11 fta.

So that count is 2.5 great games and 1.5 terrible ones. Naturally I would have liked to have seen better and I would have liked to have seen w’s. but man, to have been out there almost all alone with the injuries and depletions and put up 26-10-5. seriously, how many guys do that in the playoffs? Just imagine if amear had contributed his average of 25ppg on 50% instead of the 15ppg he put up on 38%. And if chauncey had played 4 games at his usual of 17ppg on 43% with 5 assists instead of the one game he played.

One last interesting thought regarding the trade. In the playoffs melo matched the total numbers of the 4 nuggets he was traded for – in 39 minutes per game vs 83. how’s that for efficiency? Less than ½ the minutes to produce the same numbers as 4 guys combined. Still hating, son?

thats the knock on his career isnt it? Everyone sees he's got a the talent to totally dominate and be as good as any player. Ever. We have seen it. Nobody will remember that game 2 a year from now, and you all know why. Celtics won. It was impressive though... losing that game killed my Knick mojo for the year.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Silverfuel
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4/28/2011  5:37 PM
fishmike wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:Oh yeah, he wasn't his regular Melo self in the 2nd half of Game 1 but I think it is unrealistic to expect him to dominate every single game. If you think he should dominate every single game then we have nothing to talk about.

It is amazing how much you expect from Melo and how much of a pass you have given our other players in the present and in the past.

what players have I given a pass to in the past?

why is it amazing to expect a lot from a 26 year old player making $20mm, going to all star games that we just traded half the roster, picks and cap space for?

And he was 2 shots from earning a very high grade from me. Fair or not thats sports. Thats what changes perception.


IMO, your expectations are unrealistic. Because he had a bad 2nd half of game 1 and was very good the rest of the series.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
PresIke
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4/28/2011  5:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/28/2011  6:00 PM
lebron is better than melo, but melo is better than what we gave up, imho.

i am having a hard time seeing how folks can criticize melo too much from this series.

he had one of the best single games in knick playoff history while playing with more than 2 players that arguably shouldn't be in an nba rotation, and no other real consistent help.

one player can only do so much, especially when they are not a playmaker like lebron was on the cavs, jordan was later in his career, or most top pg's are...while surrounded with appropriate complimentary pieces.

can someone tell me who were those pieces in this series sans billups and amar'e? when dude tries to pass to wide open players they are too shook to finish even under the basket, unguarded!

most of the team was playing like ****e or wildly inconsistent, particularly in the last two games...except him.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
JrZyHuStLa
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4/28/2011  8:36 PM
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:Name the last championship caliber all star that didn't have a few good players around him.
Lebron JAmes

He wasn't championship caliber. You just proved my point of needing very good players around a star player to win a championship.

oh... so we are back to the Marbury is just as good as Kidd because neither have rings arguement?

Lebron James went to a finals. He went to the ECF finals. He won playoff series. He did it will Anderson Varejao and Mo Williams and guys like that. He had deep playoff runs. Melo never has except once his teams were always less talented then Melo's.

Lebron isnt championship caliber? But your saying Melo is? What ARE you saying? What point did I just prove? Curious to hear this one...

Lebron James couldn't win a championship because the talent around him wasn't as good as the talent championship caliber stars had around them.

What don't you understand?

crzymdups
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4/28/2011  8:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/28/2011  8:53 PM
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:They showed that they could win in the regular season.
which remains my concern about the player we traded for.

But he played with 4 YMCA guys. Didn't you get the memo?


right... all 8 years he's been in the league, except one. Good enough to "lead" a team to 50+ wins however many times but not to win a couple playoff game, or series

This trend doesnt bother you? This is just another KG situation where he needs a few good players around him and we see what he can really do?

He got out of the first round with Chauncey - took the champion Lakers to 6 games in the WCF. The West was a HARD conference to be in for most of Melo's time out there. 2008, they lost in the first round to a Lakers team that got to the Finals, 2007 to the Spurs who won it all, 2006 to the Clippers (okay, that's not impressive), 2005 to the NBA champ Spurs, 2004 to the T'Wolves (ironically the first year KG got out of the first round and it was Melo's rookie season).

I don't see a disturbing trend, I see a guy who lost to the West Conference champion or NBA champion 4 out of 6 years. His rookie year they lost to the T'Wolves who made it the Western Conference finals.

Melo's not perfect, but I think the problem was the team surrounding him, or lack thereof. With a healthy Billups and Amar'e, I think they'd have taken a few games. But, hey, those were the Celtics. I still wouldn't be surprised if the Celtics made it back to the Finals this season. That's a gritty, smart team.

¿ △ ?
JrZyHuStLa
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4/28/2011  8:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/28/2011  8:58 PM
If people are going to excuse D'antoni for not winning a championship with one of the most talented rosters in the history of the league, then why won't they excuse Melo for not getting deep into the postseason with a very poor supporting cast in a tough Western Conference?
Juice
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4/28/2011  9:01 PM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:If people are going to excuse D'antoni for not winning a championship with one of the most talented rosters in the history of the league, then why won't they excuse Melo for not getting deep into the postseason with a very poor supporting cast in a tough Western Conference?

It's debatable if Melo had weak supporting cast ever year he was in the playoffs. Some would beg to differ. I'd say there's little room to apologize for either.

crzymdups
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4/28/2011  9:44 PM
Juice wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:If people are going to excuse D'antoni for not winning a championship with one of the most talented rosters in the history of the league, then why won't they excuse Melo for not getting deep into the postseason with a very poor supporting cast in a tough Western Conference?

It's debatable if Melo had weak supporting cast ever year he was in the playoffs. Some would beg to differ. I'd say there's little room to apologize for either.

of course you would.

¿ △ ?
Uptown
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4/28/2011  10:24 PM
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:They showed that they could win in the regular season.
which remains my concern about the player we traded for.

But he played with 4 YMCA guys. Didn't you get the memo?


right... all 8 years he's been in the league, except one. Good enough to "lead" a team to 50+ wins however many times but not to win a couple playoff game, or series

This trend doesnt bother you? This is just another KG situation where he needs a few good players around him and we see what he can really do?

He got out of the first round with Chauncey - took the champion Lakers to 6 games in the WCF. The West was a HARD conference to be in for most of Melo's time out there. 2008, they lost in the first round to a Lakers team that got to the Finals, 2007 to the Spurs who won it all, 2006 to the Clippers (okay, that's not impressive), 2005 to the NBA champ Spurs, 2004 to the T'Wolves (ironically the first year KG got out of the first round and it was Melo's rookie season).
I don't see a disturbing trend, I see a guy who lost to the West Conference champion or NBA champion 4 out of 6 years. His rookie year they lost to the T'Wolves who made it the Western Conference finals.

Melo's not perfect, but I think the problem was the team surrounding him, or lack thereof. With a healthy Billups and Amar'e, I think they'd have taken a few games. But, hey, those were the Celtics. I still wouldn't be surprised if the Celtics made it back to the Finals this season. That's a gritty, smart team.

Agreed. I've made these points at least a half dozen times. Its easy to throw out the numbers and say Melo didn't advance his team out of the first round so therefore he is not a star who can carry a team. But if you look behind the numers and realize he was losing most times to champions or championship contending teams who held the homecourt advantage aswell. Are we really arguing that Melo should have beaten the Spurs and Lakers with inferior teams?

Solace
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4/28/2011  10:41 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/28/2011  10:41 PM
I agree with the premise, but Denver not knowing how to properly use the players they got should not be a justification. It's clear their depth killed them in that series. How Ty Lawson starts over Ray Felton is an absolute mystery to me. With how Denver is using the players they got, they're right - they got owned in that trade, but it's their own fault. Having a lot of depth doesn't mean you should play a 10 or 11 man rotation all the time.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Paladin55
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4/29/2011  2:01 AM
Silverfuel wrote:
It is amazing how much you expect from Melo and how much of a pass you have given our other players in the present and in the past.

Anthony is a "finished" player... the Moses who was supposed to lead us to the promised land, and expectations for him were created by everyone who thought we should give up anyone or thing Denver wanted to acquire him.

The lesson you get from our playoff appearance is that you need a team to win, and that Anthony, alone, was not even able to get us a single win against Boston, a team that seemed on the verge being marginalized toward the end of the regular season.

As for what the Nuggets got...

Denver doesn't win game 4 without Gallinari's contribution in the second half and down the stretch, which complimented Lawson's fine game. He also had a good game 1, and was doing fine in game 5 until his foul problem. Denver actually lost some leads with him on the bench during the series, and picking up 5 fouls may have cost Denver the game yesterday, because he had been having a good game, and was doing well on D against Durant. He also had an achilles injury during the series- in fact he had a few injuries with Denver- making me wonder about his durability as he continues to gain weight, but that is another issue.

Don't know what happened with Chandler- he had some injury issues down the regular season stretch- had a terrible playoff series, though. He did not seem in sync, but I think some of the blame should be put on Lawson and Felton to some degree, IMO.

Felton tried to do too much in his series, but I think we would have been better off with him than Billups. He seemed to be competing with Lawson to see which of the could make crazier drives to the hoop. I thought both he and Lawson tried to do too much on their own in the series and did not make their teammates better.

Mozguv was hurt- what else can you say- but he showed enough promise during the year to make me think that Walsh should have done everything he could to keep him.


Kind of funny when I here folks talk about our "core." Our two big stars are still one way players for the most part, with one of them showing some brittleness in terms of injuries, and your third "star" is over hill- a guy who will never get better, and probably will not be around for all of next year (definitely not back the following year). The rest of our team seems to be filler at this time. So our core 3 guys making about 46-50 million combined. We have no cap flexibility and face the uncertainty of a new CBA. Easy to think negatively about our future.

So it goes.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
yellowboy90
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4/29/2011  4:20 AM
melo first few teams resembled the game two squad after amare got hurt but slightly better. Camby and Miller were good but didn't contribute that much offensively. The teams had no outside shooters after vashon leonard was injured. They relied in little Earl Boynkins, Kleiza(euro version of extra E), and naejra? off the bench. Teams played him like the C's did in game 3. Things really change when Billups got there and last year they were on their way to a number 2 seed until karl was diagnosed and then the season went down hill from there. The past is the past its about the future and Melo is determined to show he can win a title.
Bonn1997
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4/29/2011  6:55 AM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:They showed that they could win in the regular season.

Who's they? The above .500 team before the trade or the 14-14 team (14-18 counting post-season) after the trade?

fishmike
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4/29/2011  8:00 AM
Uptown wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
fishmike wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:They showed that they could win in the regular season.
which remains my concern about the player we traded for.

But he played with 4 YMCA guys. Didn't you get the memo?


right... all 8 years he's been in the league, except one. Good enough to "lead" a team to 50+ wins however many times but not to win a couple playoff game, or series

This trend doesnt bother you? This is just another KG situation where he needs a few good players around him and we see what he can really do?

He got out of the first round with Chauncey - took the champion Lakers to 6 games in the WCF. The West was a HARD conference to be in for most of Melo's time out there. 2008, they lost in the first round to a Lakers team that got to the Finals, 2007 to the Spurs who won it all, 2006 to the Clippers (okay, that's not impressive), 2005 to the NBA champ Spurs, 2004 to the T'Wolves (ironically the first year KG got out of the first round and it was Melo's rookie season).
I don't see a disturbing trend, I see a guy who lost to the West Conference champion or NBA champion 4 out of 6 years. His rookie year they lost to the T'Wolves who made it the Western Conference finals.

Melo's not perfect, but I think the problem was the team surrounding him, or lack thereof. With a healthy Billups and Amar'e, I think they'd have taken a few games. But, hey, those were the Celtics. I still wouldn't be surprised if the Celtics made it back to the Finals this season. That's a gritty, smart team.

Agreed. I've made these points at least a half dozen times. Its easy to throw out the numbers and say Melo didn't advance his team out of the first round so therefore he is not a star who can carry a team. But if you look behind the numers and realize he was losing most times to champions or championship contending teams who held the homecourt advantage aswell. Are we really arguing that Melo should have beaten the Spurs and Lakers with inferior teams?

I did look behind the numbers. Melo shoots 42% in 50 playoff games. 4 of the 8 years he's been in the playoffs he's shot less than 40%. Same with our 4 games... he shot 37%. Seems like a lot of chucking to me doesnt it?

Hey.. if your ok with it I am.

Like the cat said in a post above. This is a finished played who was brought here to win us a title because you need stars to do that. Seems a lot more like a complimentary piece to me but OK

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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4/29/2011  8:03 AM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:If people are going to excuse D'antoni for not winning a championship with one of the most talented rosters in the history of the league, then why won't they excuse Melo for not getting deep into the postseason with a very poor supporting cast in a tough Western Conference?

thats funny. Have they been great since he left? Did Nash win MVPs before MDA? After? Does the roster your talking about include playing Boris Diaw at center? He's a HOFer right? How's Marion been since leaving the Suns? How did the team play the year Amare didnt play?

Sorry dude. That Suns team was not regarded as good out west, much less great. But OK

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Silverfuel
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4/29/2011  9:57 AM
Paladin55 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
It is amazing how much you expect from Melo and how much of a pass you have given our other players in the present and in the past.

Anthony is a "finished" player... the Moses who was supposed to lead us to the promised land, and expectations for him were created by everyone who thought we should give up anyone or thing Denver wanted to acquire him.

The lesson you get from our playoff appearance is that you need a team to win, and that Anthony, alone, was not even able to get us a single win against Boston, a team that seemed on the verge being marginalized toward the end of the regular season.

As for what the Nuggets got...

Denver doesn't win game 4 without Gallinari's contribution in the second half and down the stretch, which complimented Lawson's fine game. He also had a good game 1, and was doing fine in game 5 until his foul problem. Denver actually lost some leads with him on the bench during the series, and picking up 5 fouls may have cost Denver the game yesterday, because he had been having a good game, and was doing well on D against Durant. He also had an achilles injury during the series- in fact he had a few injuries with Denver- making me wonder about his durability as he continues to gain weight, but that is another issue.

Don't know what happened with Chandler- he had some injury issues down the regular season stretch- had a terrible playoff series, though. He did not seem in sync, but I think some of the blame should be put on Lawson and Felton to some degree, IMO.

Felton tried to do too much in his series, but I think we would have been better off with him than Billups. He seemed to be competing with Lawson to see which of the could make crazier drives to the hoop. I thought both he and Lawson tried to do too much on their own in the series and did not make their teammates better.

Mozguv was hurt- what else can you say- but he showed enough promise during the year to make me think that Walsh should have done everything he could to keep him.


Kind of funny when I here folks talk about our "core." Our two big stars are still one way players for the most part, with one of them showing some brittleness in terms of injuries, and your third "star" is over hill- a guy who will never get better, and probably will not be around for all of next year (definitely not back the following year). The rest of our team seems to be filler at this time. So our core 3 guys making about 46-50 million combined. We have no cap flexibility and face the uncertainty of a new CBA. Easy to think negatively about our future.

So it goes.


You are right. Amare and Melo are not Jodan. What was I thinking?
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
1st round of playoffs and “the trade”

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