Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

i think people are taking it as a projection of where melo will end up. not as a comparison to their prime years.

As for C's i'd like Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler, Kaman ... At least there are some options that would be an upgrade over what we've had.

There are actually a lot of good SG's that we could go after if we wanted. Afflalo, JR Smith, Gary Forbes, Nick Young, CD Roberts etc.

Just these improvements would make a bigger improvement than changing the coach, who even with his failings is still a good NBA coach and more than capable of running an NBA team. If he's good enough to get his teams to the WCF's why wouldn't he be good enough to do the same here given a good team?

nixluva wrote:IMO Mike simply needs for the holes we all know we have to be filled. PG, C & SG. I don't think just cuz we have STAT and Melo that makes a complete team. Neither guy is capable of running an offense. Thank God Melo can rebound, cuz STAT is opposed to rebounding from a religious standpoint. So long as we can find a big that can be an enforcer to back up STAT and take on the C's and clean the glass we'll be much improved. Even more so if we can find a PG that is actually able to see the floor, pass to the right guy, hit a shot and penetrate. You know PG stuff. For now we've got aging CB and non PG TD. I'd love to find a PG that is a constant pest, able to break down opposing defenses. I still have a strong like of Luke Ridnour. I just think he'd benefit from playing under Mike. I think he'd put up career numbers and be more capable of actually running the offense the way it's supposed to work. Maybe we could make a deal with Minny.

As for C's i'd like Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler, Kaman ... At least there are some options that would be an upgrade over what we've had.

There are actually a lot of good SG's that we could go after if we wanted. Afflalo, JR Smith, Gary Forbes, Nick Young, CD Roberts etc.

Just these improvements would make a bigger improvement than changing the coach, who even with his failings is still a good NBA coach and more than capable of running an NBA team. If he's good enough to get his teams to the WCF's why wouldn't he be good enough to do the same here given a good team?

Nick Young is a poor mans JR Smith

CD Roberts is not starter material with Melo and Amare.

LOL at Gary Forbes.

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:Fishmike is in raging. He has gone from "simmer" to "Boil".

MIke's not hating, he's just tipped to a dark place for now. one can see it coming.

And he lives in Jersey. He'll hava few cold beers on his patio, look at the birds and it will be good.

someone who gets it.

dummies like this think I actually want the Knicks to lose, like I get some phucking crap satisfaction from being right about anything, ever. Idiotic.

Well in the words of the great DL hughley, I never called you a hoe baby......... just pointing out alot of things you are doing are very HOE-LIKE.

If that's how you feel then that's on you, I'm just asking questions.

And as a player who lead a dead franchise to respectability and a winning culture for close to a decade, Melo is far above the player VC was at his best.... though you may feel that either you are in the finals multiple times or you are like ever other burn out great that has came along. I don't and I think most rational people are less rigid than the former in their veiw.

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

You and I engaged in a brief convo in one of the htreads recently, and you commented that one of my responses was not related to the topic. You were 100% right. Thats was the purpose of my response in this thread. Fish has made dozens of posts comparing Melo to Arenas and Vince and I've commented in those appropriate threads. But why bring that up again here, when the topic is about defending MDA? I just feel like this thread was hijacked and lost focus after that. We finally got some insight into MDA'a huddle from an actual player and had the ability to have a good discussion about it but, of course the topic was interrupted.

nixluva wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO Mike simply needs for the holes we all know we have to be filled. PG, C & SG. I don't think just cuz we have STAT and Melo that makes a complete team. Neither guy is capable of running an offense. Thank God Melo can rebound, cuz STAT is opposed to rebounding from a religious standpoint. So long as we can find a big that can be an enforcer to back up STAT and take on the C's and clean the glass we'll be much improved. Even more so if we can find a PG that is actually able to see the floor, pass to the right guy, hit a shot and penetrate. You know PG stuff. For now we've got aging CB and non PG TD. I'd love to find a PG that is a constant pest, able to break down opposing defenses. I still have a strong like of Luke Ridnour. I just think he'd benefit from playing under Mike. I think he'd put up career numbers and be more capable of actually running the offense the way it's supposed to work. Maybe we could make a deal with Minny.

As for C's i'd like Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler, Kaman ... At least there are some options that would be an upgrade over what we've had.

There are actually a lot of good SG's that we could go after if we wanted. Afflalo, JR Smith, Gary Forbes, Nick Young, CD Roberts etc.

Just these improvements would make a bigger improvement than changing the coach, who even with his failings is still a good NBA coach and more than capable of running an NBA team. If he's good enough to get his teams to the WCF's why wouldn't he be good enough to do the same here given a good team?

Nick Young is a poor mans JR Smith

CD Roberts is not starter material with Melo and Amare.

LOL at Gary Forbes.

What the heck is wrong with you? You expecting perfection? You have 2 Superstars the other guys don't have to be great. We need players that can fill roles at reasonable prices. You have some better suggestions that we can get for cheap?

Personally I always like CDR. And I actually like the toughness and traditional 2 guard game that Walker plays. There were a few times this series that I thought that starting Walker was a good idea.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:D'antoni couldn't win a championship with the most talented roster in the NBA with Nash, Stoudemire, Marion, Barbosa, Bell, etc.

All because he neglected defense.

This is BS Jrz...all series long I heard how ray, pp, and the rest of boston never ever was none for there defense til kg and rondo got there and set the tone...this team (we all witness) is capable of playing very good defense, but just like most super stars, they can't play it for 48mins every night..that's on the players...

Your leader sets the tone on D...I remember melo (during the 6 game win streak) really stepping up on d and picking up the intensity (the 2 weeks he got pow) then watching his teammates follow suit..MDA may not be a defense guru..but he has emphasize defense a lot more then in the past...

In your very own opinion, please tell us what you think is the responsibility of a head coach in the NBA.

If its entirely on the players, then why does the league employ 30 head coaches?

Dude I'm not making this stuff up as I go along...thre proof is there..how good defensively are the celts without rondo and kg..I'm sure you were around..Doc Rivers was on the flaming HOT SEAT prior to kg n ray joining the C's..

When he was with orlando..they were a solid team that couldn't play D ..and despite having a super star in Mcgrady ..they couldn't stop no one..and he got fired..

Cmon...don't act like Amares token defense doesn't go unnotice..or Td gambles bcome costly..melos very good d in one half and (not intrested in playing d )in the other half..
MDA can sure use some top defensive assistant..but I'm not going to fualt the entire defensive struggles on him

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

No way you take a players best statical years and say he is comparable to another player, he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

Would you take somebody comparing D rose to Marbury because the numbers are similar and there both socrers??? Phuck out of here with that, any bulls fan would jump down your throat nomatter how you spiced it up.

Vince never lived to being a franchise player even at his best and Gilbert was a flash in the pan compared to Melo's career at the ripe old age of 26.

when Rose has been in the league for 8 years and has a 16-34 playoff record that discussion will hold water then wont it?

he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

wrong again. You think Wash and Tor fans thought Vince and Arenas were going to flash out during those years? No... they thought those guys were the next super stars of the NBA and they had the #s and wins to back that up

Its not a dig on Melo. Its a dig on you. Its funny how you can talk about Melo's future greatness but discard the fact that the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the NBA before the trade and a ton of cap space to sign a star this summer. The same standards dont apply do they?

I will ask again. What has Melo earned? What have you seen from Melo that clearly separates him from Arenas, TMac and Vince Carter?

And why do think I hate Melo? I dont. I have only hated one player ever on all the sports teams I have followed in Knicks/Yanks/Giants and thats Marbury, and I rooted HARD for that guy when he got here, just like I rooted hard for Curry to get his fat ass together, just like I rooted for Melo to stick his boot in the Celtic's combined cornholes.

The difference between me and you is I havent convinced myself Melo is something he isnt. What you see is what you get dude.

Nearly half of his 34 playoff losses (16) are to the Spurs and Lakers. Only twice did the Nugs have homcourt advantage in the playoffs since he joined the Nuggs. One of those times they advanced to the western conference finals. Only once were the Nugs a favorite to win a series and lost and that was last year when they lost to the Jazz. Every other playoff seires thay lost they were the underdogs and weren't supposed to win.

Melo has been in 8 postseason and in 50 games has shot less then 42%. In HALF of his post seasons he's shot WELL BELOW 40%

.328, .333, 364 and .375 are his shooting %s in 4 of the 8 years he's been in the playoffs. Was that too much Lakers and Spurs also?

At the start of this series people here thought ESPN saying the Pierce/Melo matchup was even and people here treated it like blasphemy. How did that turn out?

At one point do you say this guy does not match up well again NBA elite or he's NOT a good player in the playoffs? Its been 8 years.... do we wait for 10 years? 15? But I'm a hater for comparing Melo to guys who have been stars in this league like TMac, Vince Carter and Arenas.

ALL YOU GUYS who want the coach fired because you cant win with this style in the playoffs like to totally ignore Melo's consistently poor playoff performances.

Why isnt Mike DAntoni entitled to the same excuses Carmelo gets?

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

No way you take a players best statical years and say he is comparable to another player, he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

Would you take somebody comparing D rose to Marbury because the numbers are similar and there both socrers??? Phuck out of here with that, any bulls fan would jump down your throat nomatter how you spiced it up.

Vince never lived to being a franchise player even at his best and Gilbert was a flash in the pan compared to Melo's career at the ripe old age of 26.

when Rose has been in the league for 8 years and has a 16-34 playoff record that discussion will hold water then wont it?

he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

wrong again. You think Wash and Tor fans thought Vince and Arenas were going to flash out during those years? No... they thought those guys were the next super stars of the NBA and they had the #s and wins to back that up

Its not a dig on Melo. Its a dig on you. Its funny how you can talk about Melo's future greatness but discard the fact that the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the NBA before the trade and a ton of cap space to sign a star this summer. The same standards dont apply do they?

I will ask again. What has Melo earned? What have you seen from Melo that clearly separates him from Arenas, TMac and Vince Carter?

And why do think I hate Melo? I dont. I have only hated one player ever on all the sports teams I have followed in Knicks/Yanks/Giants and thats Marbury, and I rooted HARD for that guy when he got here, just like I rooted hard for Curry to get his fat ass together, just like I rooted for Melo to stick his boot in the Celtic's combined cornholes.

The difference between me and you is I havent convinced myself Melo is something he isnt. What you see is what you get dude.

Nearly half of his 34 playoff losses (16) are to the Spurs and Lakers. Only twice did the Nugs have homcourt advantage in the playoffs since he joined the Nuggs. One of those times they advanced to the western conference finals. Only once were the Nugs a favorite to win a series and lost and that was last year when they lost to the Jazz. Every other playoff seires thay lost they were the underdogs and weren't supposed to win.

excuses. At least least I know now your a Melo apologist. When MDA didnt win titles with the Suns it was because he didnt teach defense, his system is a gimmick, etc (coach's fault). When Melo cant get so much as TWO wins in a 7 game series its because he played the Spurs and Lakers too much. Good to know!

Melo has been in 8 postseason and in 50 games has shot less then 42%. In HALF of his post seasons he's shot WELL BELOW 40%

.328, .333, 364 and .375 are his shooting %s in 4 of the 8 years he's been in the playoffs. Was that too much Lakers and Spurs also?

At the start of this series people here thought ESPN saying the Pierce/Melo matchup was even and people here treated it like blasphemy. How did that turn out?

At one point do you say this guy does not match up well again NBA elite or he's NOT a good player in the playoffs? Its been 8 years.... do we wait for 10 years? 15? But I'm a hater for comparing Melo to guys who have been stars in this league like TMac, Vince Carter and Arenas.

ALL YOU GUYS who want the coach fired because you cant win with this style in the playoffs like to totally ignore Melo's consistently poor playoff performances.

Why isnt Mike DAntoni entitled to the same excuses Carmelo gets?

Wow, same thought at almost the same time. We are back on the same page.

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

You and I engaged in a brief convo in one of the htreads recently, and you commented that one of my responses was not related to the topic. You were 100% right. Thats was the purpose of my response in this thread. Fish has made dozens of posts comparing Melo to Arenas and Vince and I've commented in those appropriate threads. But why bring that up again here, when the topic is about defending MDA? I just feel like this thread was hijacked and lost focus after that. We finally got some insight into MDA'a huddle from an actual player and had the ability to have a good discussion about it but, of course the topic was interrupted.

I think it is relevant. Again, everytime we lose we blame the coach in NY. We now have 2 of the top 10 players on one team. Sooner or later, Melo and Amare have to start sharing the blame with the coach. Time is coming that we stop taking shots at the coach and start putting some accountability on the players. If they have excuses for why they didn't win, then doesn't the coach have those same excuses?

The coach will always be the most visible part of a franchise for the simple fact he controls the players. Melo isn't in charge of 12 other guys, he isn't in charge of making game time adjustments or playing time. That will always be the reality of being a coach, no matter how unfair you think it is. And the vote of no confidence that MDA gets is not because of results, but his decisions and management of this team.

There will be a day to judge Melo and Stat, but it isn't after a season fro one and 30 games for the other. But this coach in small samples has shown enough to me for people to feel if they want to take him or leave him after three seasons.

You may not want to admit it but you can tell good or bad coaching in small samples. That's the difference. It's not excuses, it's projections.