nyk4ever wrote:

VDesai wrote:This guy is a good player. He had a bad series. Played too tentatively. But he's shown to be better than that over the course of the year and you can't discount that. He's coming alone just fine in my eyes. He was a late first rounder with a 10 ppg per game average playing mostly as a bench player. Thats pretty good.

agree 100% td matured a ton this year. he had a bad series in which he looked to revert back to his old habits but over the course of the year we saw him really evolve into a nice player. this bad series will be good for his growth.

The veteran helped cut a 23-point deficit to four. He scored 11 points and pressured Rondo in the backcourt, whereas Douglas gave him plenty of room to operate.

"It wasn't the instruction; I just got tired of seeing it the whole series," Carter said. "We just had to try something different, make him work a little bit because he has so much energy when he's coming across the court with no ball pressure. Anybody can play 48 minutes like that.

Douglas has suffered through a back injury and then hurt his right shoulder, which has bothered him almost all season. He re-aggravated the shoulder going for a steal in Game 3, and admitted it affected him yesterday.

"I played," Douglas said, "but I wasn't going to miss this game for nothing."

I'd like to see him play on Minnesota and see how he does," D'Antoni said. "It's everybody. Everybody's tied together. They have three Hall of Famers out there. Now Rondo's a very, very good basketball player, really good. But if you look at their team and assess, 'What can we take away; what do we have to give them and play the odds?' then one thing is his shot. Try to close up the middle on him."

To me this is about making an adjustment. One that did not come until carter took it upon himself to change the way they were guarding Rondo.

TD's game has always been part ball denial and pressuri9ng the ball. He was instructed not to do either. In my mind this is a failure by the coach to make an adjustment to what is happening on the floor. In it's time NYK's have traded away bunches of talent. He wouldn't be the first.

Olbrannon wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

VDesai wrote:This guy is a good player. He had a bad series. Played too tentatively. But he's shown to be better than that over the course of the year and you can't discount that. He's coming alone just fine in my eyes. He was a late first rounder with a 10 ppg per game average playing mostly as a bench player. Thats pretty good.

agree 100% td matured a ton this year. he had a bad series in which he looked to revert back to his old habits but over the course of the year we saw him really evolve into a nice player. this bad series will be good for his growth.

The veteran helped cut a 23-point deficit to four. He scored 11 points and pressured Rondo in the backcourt, whereas Douglas gave him plenty of room to operate.

"It wasn't the instruction; I just got tired of seeing it the whole series," Carter said. "We just had to try something different, make him work a little bit because he has so much energy when he's coming across the court with no ball pressure. Anybody can play 48 minutes like that.

Douglas has suffered through a back injury and then hurt his right shoulder, which has bothered him almost all season. He re-aggravated the shoulder going for a steal in Game 3, and admitted it affected him yesterday.

"I played," Douglas said, "but I wasn't going to miss this game for nothing."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/guard_en_groan_PpgMMfpqOAc9m1R6wWlG7N#ixzz1KY54gosS

I'd like to see him play on Minnesota and see how he does," D'Antoni said. "It's everybody. Everybody's tied together. They have three Hall of Famers out there. Now Rondo's a very, very good basketball player, really good. But if you look at their team and assess, 'What can we take away; what do we have to give them and play the odds?' then one thing is his shot. Try to close up the middle on him."

To me this is about making an adjustment. One that did not come until carter took it upon himself to change the way they were guarding Rondo.

TD's game has always been part ball denial and pressuri9ng the ball. He was instructed not to do either. In my mind this is a failure by the coach to make an adjustment to what is happening on the floor. In it's time NYK's have traded away bunches of talent. He wouldn't be the first.

Yet he kept shooting and shooting as if his shoulders were healthy and his brain was injured.

LOL @ D'AnToni bagging on Rondo. So I guess Kevin Love sucks and you wouldn't want him as a 4 starting next to Amar'e

I guess this never happened either D'AnToni.....

2008-09 Playoffs 22 BOS NBA 14 577 93 223 6 24 44 67 32 136 137 35 3 38 47 236 .417 .250 .657 41.2 16.9 9.7 9.8

Rondo is the player he passed on while in Phx and gave major props for earlier in the year but now that the kicked this teams arse, he's got jokes. It's not like he hasn't had 3yrs of film to study Rondo's game and how he should be played. Backing off him all series is an extremely a dumb thing to do. Also what happened to the secret weapon Effries who he had guard him 2yrs ago as the Rondo stopper..... where was this all series lol? Face it coach you don't have a clue what you're doing defensively... ZIPPO clue.

He is nothing but an atrocious shooter now.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:When Douglas was drafted, his biggest skill set was his defense, and he has lost that asset under Mike D'antoni.

He is nothing but an atrocious shooter now.

Same thing over time happened to Raja Bell and Shawn Marion. They became shooting specialist and their 3pt attempts went up and up and up.

Douglas and Fields should have been our lock down guys who helped us control tempo(to a degree) of game, by their style of play.

Notice a player like Toney Allen came in the league as a defensive specialist and has remained a defensive specialist under 2 different teams(coaches) Celtics and now Grizzlies. Doc Rivers didn't have Toney Allen try to duplicate Ray Allen and Lionel Hollins didn't try to have Allen duplicate O.J. Mayo

Juice wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:When Douglas was drafted, his biggest skill set was his defense, and he has lost that asset under Mike D'antoni.

He is nothing but an atrocious shooter now.

Same thing over time happened to Raja Bell and Shawn Marion. They became shooting specialist and their 3pt attempts went up and up and up.

Douglas and Fields should have been our lock down guys who helped us control tempo(to a degree) of game, by their style of play.

Notice a player like Toney Allen came in the league as a defensive specialist and has remained a defensive specialist under 2 different teams(coaches) Celtics and now Grizzlies. Doc Rivers didn't have Toney Allen try to duplicate Ray Allen and Lionel Hollins didn't try to have Allen duplicate O.J. Mayo

LOL. since raja bell wasn't widely regarded as the kobe-stopper while he was on phoenix. and that shawn marion wasn't widely regarded as one of the best defensive SF's in the game.

Juice wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I'm okay with first and second year guys struggling in the playoffs against the best defensive team and most experienced team in the east. I think hell learn from this experience and feel no need to trade him. Isiah taught us that you can't slap together a championship team. We can't keep turning over our roster and expect results. We need some of these guys to grow together.

His defense was inexcusable. Embarrasing really.

So are we holding on to Douglas and everyone else so they can play together and build chemistry or are we trading Douglas and asset for O.J. Mayo or like talents to upgrade the roster?

or

Is this a case where the overall suggestion of trading Douglas for a pick/capable backup/capable big if at all possible is not preferred by you and others

Otherwise I'm confused at the attachment to said player

1.) You consider any trade if it upgrades your team. This goes without saying and isn't up fro debate. Just don't understand the rush to trade everyone that has a bad couple of games. Continuity and player improvement is a very important component of championship basketball. Unless we add a Chris Paul/Williams we are going to have to be very careful of who we add as role player. Toney is getting better and I'd rather watch him grow then rush to get him out of here. But again, if you can considerably upgrade your team(not sold on malcontents like Mayo, but there are others) of course you do. Didn't we do that to get Melo?

2.) Who said I was attached to any player? A little dramatic, no?

martin wrote:

Juice wrote:Douglas and Fields should have been our lock down guys who helped us control tempo(to a degree) of game, by their style of play.

Rookie and backup PG?

When was Fields ever a lock down guy? I am trying to recall him being an average-at-best defender for the SG position. During the season I never thought he was an outright liability (he surely had his fair share of down moments), but I also never thought he was stellar on D either (maybe not even average).

Those 2 guys you were counting on to help control tempo?

IMHO, it should have come from Amare, Melo, Billups; their energy and leadership sets tempo and example for team.

Not counting on as exclusive to them but a grooming to be these kinds of players as in this is your dominant role.

I said help as in it would come from others too.... namely the star players you mentioned.

But a couple of them were down therefore who stepped up or what well could they draw from to perform in this area?

So, playoffs are definitely a different animal than regular season, play to win vs. play to get experience. Are we collectively happy that the team played young guys minutes (Shawne: 25, Billy 22, Douglas 28, Fields 18) or should MDA just play vets and forgo young guys getting experience?

martin wrote:I am sensing some good examples of why developing young players is so difficult in NY.

So, playoffs are definitely a different animal than regular season, play to win vs. play to get experience. Are we collectively happy that the team played young guys minutes (Shawne: 25, Billy 22, Douglas 28, Fields 18) or should MDA just play vets and forgo young guys getting experience?

Playing minutes doesn't mean you're developing a player. The only one who actually progressed marginally was Williams. Fields regressed, Douglas regressed, Walker picked up about where he left off back half of last season.

Is Douglas anymore a solid backup point guard compared to last year? NO!

Is Fields anymore a solid 2 than he was at the start of the season? NO!

What is Walker's true position?

You have to play and develop them into the need during the year instead of having them play towards a skillset. They all got playing time based on their ability to shoot the basketball. Walker never improved his defense started putting the ball on the floor last couple weeks of the season, Douglas became a worse defender and backup point guard, Fields somehow got lost, Williams played his role fairly well and gave us what he could.

When I look at development I think of what Vogel has done with AJ Price and Paul George and while these guys were higher prospects coming into the league, they aren't head and shoulders better talent compared to what we have.

Playoffs were not the determining factor for me looking at these guys over 82gms

knicks1248 wrote:The pg position in this system is the foundation of its success..without a high IQ pg who can score..this system is a mess and the coach will get fired..I rather have a 40 yr old nash

I was thinking about that statement the other day, trying to figure out if there was ANY system that could be run without a decent PG and be an elite team (say top 10 in league). The only one I came up with was the Triangle Offense, but then realistically you need dominant wings and post players.

There are some teams that get away with average play at the PG (I am talking playoff teams) - Miami comes to mind, but realistically Wade, LeBron facilitate that position. Perhaps one could cite Philly, but Collins has done a smart thing and handed the ball to Iggy.

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The pg position in this system is the foundation of its success..without a high IQ pg who can score..this system is a mess and the coach will get fired..I rather have a 40 yr old nash

I was thinking about that statement the other day, trying to figure out if there was ANY system that could be run without a decent PG and be an elite team (say top 10 in league). The only one I came up with was the Triangle Offense, but then realistically you need dominant wings and post players.

There are some teams that get away with average play at the PG (I am talking playoff teams) - Miami comes to mind, but realistically Wade, LeBron facilitate that position. Perhaps one could cite Philly, but Collins has done a smart thing and handed the ball to Iggy.

I agree..but toney isn't a flat out scorer, he is not a great defender (he's ok) passer, rebounder ect..all he's just fast..

Problems come up when you rely on him to do anything consistant..we got a couple of top notch super stars in there prime..is it wise to wiat til thess (young guys) develope while your super stars start to break down ala EWING...when we traded for melo they they scratch the devolping stage.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying about TD. What is the normal timeline for developing a PG, especially one who is a convert SG? Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

TD can be a decent defender, I think he overdoes it at time. Has he progressed? Progressed enough? Not sure.

I don't think anyone thinks is anything near a first line PG, nor should be he. Boston exposed him, but that's no surprise.

TD looked decent (at best) starting when Chauncey first went down after the Denver trade.

TD has also played hurt all season, have no idea how that has impacted his defense (getting around screens) or offense when shooting. How does the revolving door of players impact his development?