sealy wrote:

loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.

Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.

While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.

No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like **** in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.

Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him

question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.

We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.

martin wrote:

sealy wrote:

loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.

Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.

While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.

No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like **** in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.

Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him

question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.

We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.

answer: The title of the thread is "Toney has really raised his game" which would entail his overall game; scoring, passing, defense, etc...

The title of thread should be "Toney has really picked up his scoring" which has been out of pure necessity. I can think of two other guards we had that could also fill it up and weren't very solid in other areas - Jamal and Nate.

I like Toney Douglas and hope, just as much as every other Knick fan, that he develops into something, like I said previously, but I think he is a bit overvalued by alot of fans. Is that wording better for you?

He will be fine, he needs some time to grow into his role, he will become strong, intelligent, leader of team.

Knickoftime wrote:

tkf wrote:yea, TD even looks like a different player.. that behind the back pass to walker last night, he doesn't make that pass a year, or even a month ago...

Once a PG starts seeing the play develop BEHIND him, that's a sure sign something is starting to click.

Yeah, that was a true PG play, where he read what was about to happen (before anyone else saw it develop) and put the ball where Walker needed it to be. If he can keep improving with his ability to recognize situations developing, we will be set at pg.

sealy wrote:

martin wrote:

sealy wrote:

loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.

Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.

While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.

No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like **** in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.

Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him

question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.

We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.

answer: The title of the thread is "Toney has really raised his game" which would entail his overall game; scoring, passing, defense, etc...

The title of thread should be "Toney has really picked up his scoring" which has been out of pure necessity. I can think of two other guards we had that could also fill it up and weren't very solid in other areas - Jamal and Nate.

I like Toney Douglas and hope, just as much as every other Knick fan, that he develops into something, like I said previously, but I think he is a bit overvalued by alot of fans. Is that wording better for you?

perhaps you should also read and react to the content and context of the original post? TD raising has game has nothing to do with overrating him.

sealy wrote:

loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.

Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.

While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.

No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like **** in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.

Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him

agreed. but i think he made some huge shots in the final minutes that frankly won the game for the knicks. if he learns to run the offense, he'll be another Chauncey Billups IMO...

martin wrote:

sealy wrote:

martin wrote:

sealy wrote:

loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.

Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.

While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.

No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like **** in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.

Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him

question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.

We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.

answer: The title of the thread is "Toney has really raised his game" which would entail his overall game; scoring, passing, defense, etc...

The title of thread should be "Toney has really picked up his scoring" which has been out of pure necessity. I can think of two other guards we had that could also fill it up and weren't very solid in other areas - Jamal and Nate.

I like Toney Douglas and hope, just as much as every other Knick fan, that he develops into something, like I said previously, but I think he is a bit overvalued by alot of fans. Is that wording better for you?

perhaps you should also read and react to the content and context of the original post? TD raising has game has nothing to do with overrating him.

I'm sorry man, but I am disagreeing with those who are saying he has raised his game, which as I said before, encompasses more than just scoring.

Personally, I don't find TD to be all that great of a defender. Of course, by comparison he looks good and picks a pocket every now and then, but I'm sure alot of you have noticed that he generally overplays his man out near half court and gets burnt time after time causing the D to breakdown, which usually leads to an easy bucket. Even Clyde points this out from time to time, so I know I'm not coming outta left field with that opinion. I also think he is a god awful passer/distributor. The Toronto game might have been the 1st time all season I've seen him complete more than one PnR successfully.

Again, to reiterate, I have no issue with his character or question his lack of work ethic. He does seem like a good guy, similar to Jamal Crawford and I really hope he turns out to be a player. Like someone stated above, I think another year behind Chauncey would be great for him.

But you saying TD raising his "game" has no correlation to overrating him is just incorrect in my opinion.

martin wrote:

sealy wrote:I'm sorry man, but I am disagreeing with those who are saying he has raised his game, which as I said before, encompasses more than just scoring.

Personally, I don't find TD to be all that great of a defender. Of course, by comparison he looks good and picks a pocket every now and then, but I'm sure alot of you have noticed that he generally overplays his man out near half court and gets burnt time after time causing the D to breakdown, which usually leads to an easy bucket. Even Clyde points this out from time to time, so I know I'm not coming outta left field with that opinion. I also think he is a god awful passer/distributor. The Toronto game might have been the 1st time all season I've seen him complete more than one PnR successfully.

Again, to reiterate, I have no issue with his character or question his lack of work ethic. He does seem like a good guy, similar to Jamal Crawford and I really hope he turns out to be a player. Like someone stated above, I think another year behind Chauncey would be great for him.

But you saying TD raising his "game" has no correlation to overrating him is just incorrect in my opinion.

              GP MIN FGM-FGA   FG%  3PM-3PA  3P% FTM-FTA FT%  OR  DR  REB AST BLK STL PF  TO PTS 
Pre All-Star  53 22.4 3.3-8.3  .403 1.4-4.1 .349 1.0-1.2 .773 0.8 2.1 2.9 2.2 0.0 1.2 2.2 1.0  9.1 
Post All-Star 22 28.0 4.9-11.1 .439 2.4-5.8 .414 0.9-1.0 .826 0.8 2.5 3.3 4.5 0.0 0.8 2.5 1.4 13.0 

based on above, would you say that there is a difference pre- and post- allstar game for TD?

In this context, how does overrating come in to play?

Of course his stats have improved because he has been forced into a larger role since the trade and Billups' injury and lack of familiarity with MDA's system have also supplemented his numbers as well. This debate seems like it's headed for the sports metrics thing that stated Melo was garbage for whatever the stats said. While I realize that the numbers have some value, I trust my own eyes with regard to TD's game.

So again, IN MY OPINION, those improved numbers that you're referencing are like window dressing to me and therefore can ultimately lead one into overrating his overall game. It's the same with the unemployement rate and with NYS regents scores. The numbers don't neccessarily represent what is actually happening. Census jobs were used to deflate the UI rate and solid regents scores doesn't mean students are actually learning anything.

I realize this is an extreme analogy, but I am just trying to clarify my point.

It's cool that we disagree man. I really like this forum and I shouldn't even be on here at work.

Have a good one

Knickoftime wrote:

tkf wrote:yea, TD even looks like a different player.. that behind the back pass to walker last night, he doesn't make that pass a year, or even a month ago...

Once a PG starts seeing the play develop BEHIND him, that's a sure sign something is starting to click.

true indeed, true indeed