fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:The fact is that no top coach would've wanted to endure the constant change and laundry list of selfish players we've had during Mike's tenure. Yeah he's getting paid, but he's also left himself open to intense criticism and damage to his reputation. He should at least get a chance to coach the team when the roster is really good and built to contend.

24 mil will convinced him to endure this roster's short comings...I think it all comes down to the playoffs and who becomes available...Style of play should not account for the amount of points given up to bad teams...116 to the Nets, 118 to Toronto, 106 to Cleve,119 to Indiana, 115 to Cleve, 129 to Pho, 131 to Utah...There is more...That is ridiculous for any coach with any NBA roster...

That isn't really true. You do need to have the right mix of players and the players have to be committed to giving 100% to be a good defensive team. We actually have had some major holes defensively, but also Mike isn't a great defensive coach, so that combination has led to this low level of D we had. Right now tho the team is playing more cohesively on D, so I think things will improve as we improve the roster by adding the quality size we need.

We had some defensive minded players before the trade...Chandler and Felton play good D, also Turiaf...AR was capable to blocking a few shots...Field could play better D I believe if pressured...No reason why this team should be so poor on the defensive end...we give up some of the most point in the NBA among teams like Minny, TOR,PHO..And you know as long as this guy is coach we will never play D...Never...It's not able adding pieces for defense..In you heart of hearts you know that to be true...

what would Isiah do? Cmon.. you know you have asked yourself

U would have loved him...He would have brought back DLee to anchor our defensive effort...

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:The fact is that no top coach would've wanted to endure the constant change and laundry list of selfish players we've had during Mike's tenure. Yeah he's getting paid, but he's also left himself open to intense criticism and damage to his reputation. He should at least get a chance to coach the team when the roster is really good and built to contend.

24 mil will convinced him to endure this roster's short comings...I think it all comes down to the playoffs and who becomes available...Style of play should not account for the amount of points given up to bad teams...116 to the Nets, 118 to Toronto, 106 to Cleve,119 to Indiana, 115 to Cleve, 129 to Pho, 131 to Utah...There is more...That is ridiculous for any coach with any NBA roster...

That isn't really true. You do need to have the right mix of players and the players have to be committed to giving 100% to be a good defensive team. We actually have had some major holes defensively, but also Mike isn't a great defensive coach, so that combination has led to this low level of D we had. Right now tho the team is playing more cohesively on D, so I think things will improve as we improve the roster by adding the quality size we need.

We had some defensive minded players before the trade...Chandler and Felton play good D, also Turiaf...AR was capable to blocking a few shots...Field could play better D I believe if pressured...No reason why this team should be so poor on the defensive end...we give up some of the most point in the NBA among teams like Minny, TOR,PHO..And you know as long as this guy is coach we will never play D...Never...It's not able adding pieces for defense..In you heart of hearts you know that to be true...

what would Isiah do? Cmon.. you know you have asked yourself

U would have loved him...He would have brought back DLee to anchor our defensive effort...

for a max contract!

The very thing you were asking for...

fishmike wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:uhhhh ok. sure fish. good post. What have I said here isn't true?

fishmike wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Fact. Sports analysts for espn or other sites rarely recommend firing a coach. They don't want to feel like they are contributing to someone losing their job. This is posting a stacked deck to begin with.

So what I'm getting from this confederation of D'Antoni apologists is that mda is a coach of of the Year candidate 'in the running'. He's had players that are 'complete crap' all season long and we're in the playoffs despite them. And regardless of our playoff performance he's somehow earned a free ride untill the end of next season. I think a review of the previous posts confirms this.

FUnny how all the complete crap players we've had: Felton, Gallo, CHandler, Moz are now integral pieces of one of the hottest teams in the NBA now that he's no longer their coach. The crap players holding mda back from greatness include 2 top 10 players in the NBA. And after our win over top contender Toronto we are 1 game over 0.500! Go mda! That's overachieving! And I'm not even going into detail about the alienation of players, the no defense, the lack of in game adjustments and the lack of preparation for games all season long.

I'm willing to give mda the playoffs before saying he defeintively should be fired, but all you mda boosters are insane. If we look like crap in the playoffs and a JVG, Sloan or someone even a bit lower is available it would be folly to ride this train to its inevitable conclusion of mediocrity.

you and jrzyhustla seem to just make stuff up. At least be funny if your going to do that

there is no conferdation of MDA apologists.
The rest is like taking the 45 minutes of rush limbaugh you just heard and getting pretty much everything you need to know about US politics in that.

your just a stupid Melo apologist who blames coaches for his star players shortcomings. See.. I can do that too.

Your not "talking Knicks" here.

I did like your line about "ride this train to its inevitable conclusion of mediocrity."

You come up with that yourself?

I actually did come up with that one myself. Not that I really took note of it. So you don't like the way I write, I don't see why you want to harp on it.

I called you an idiot for bringing Limbaugh and whatever into a Knicks dicussion. You mda defense is seperate from that. You can defend mda and not be stupid.

I was actually against the trade and I don't think I've made many posts if any defending or praising the trade or Melo. My whole post was concerning the Knicks, or isn't mda the coach of the Knicks? In fact isn't the thread you started on the topic?

So if you can't counter any of my points why don't you just say so?

BigSm00th wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:trick question: ask me in the offseason when we know what other coaches are available. if doc or phil jackson are available, i would can d'antoni in a minute and offer them a boatload. they are legitimate coaches, MDA is a fun gimmick coach to have but will not have playoff success (we'll see how it plays out, right?).

LOL i dont understand all of this "he desereves a legitimate roster." that is quite dubious given that it was D'Antoni who refused to play anthony randolph. randolph averaged 11 points 5 boards a block and a steal in the month of march -- basically what he averaged last year in GS, yet he couldn't get off the pine in NYK. why?

randolph turned into corey brewer, who also couldn't play in this system. according to his agent, 12 teams called, and he wound up with the mavs, the 3rd team in the west. if the 3rd team in the west could use him, why can't the 7th team in the east use him? perplexing.

he also spent the first two years in NYK playing has-beens on expiring contracts instead of developing younger guys (it took gallo half a season to get off the bench, TD an entire season, jordan hill never played, darko never played). we have an awful depth problem and an awful size problem and yet darko is putting up 9/5 and 2 blocks for the twolves and not us. why? because he couldn't "fit" in the system IE he couldn't hit a corner 3.

so the knicks could have two more adequate guys with size in the rotation had MDA actually developed players and not just stuck with who could hit the 3 ball. (jon bender over darko, eddie house over toney D, al harrington over gallo, billy walker over randolph, etc etc)

nalod -- let's get two things straight - (1) amare came to NY because they were willing to pay him $100 million and nobody else was. this has been well documented. in fact, he had to have a sit down with MDA to make sure they were on the same page. amare didn't sign here to play for the mustache. (2) melo wanted to play in NY because he wanted to be in NY. MDA had nothing to do with it. i don't think melo cares about who's coaching him, he's the best scorer in the league, he doesn't need MDA's corner 3 ball offense to put up 30.

regarding the defensive coach, yea, great idea. wasn't d'antoni's refusal to bring on thibodeau in phoenix the reason why he got canned? LOL good luck with that.

FACT. fire this bum and sign a real head coach who understand what it takes to win.

the corey brewer had nothing to do with d'antoni not playing, he was instructed by walsh to not play him because he was going to be bought out either way as a favor to brewer's agent happy walters who the knicks have alot of dealings with. nothing to do with d'antoni.

second of all - randolph was garbage everytime he played, yeah it's nice he's playing for the t'wolves but they arne't in the middle of a playoff hunt and the knicks are. randolph was a detriment to the team when he was in the game because he was only interested in playing PG instead of rebounding, blocking shots and doing the things he's good at.

RE: brewer -- according to the bill simmons/frank isola pod cast last week, it was ANTONI who said to walsh "i'm not gonna play this guy, you might as well release him." walsh released him as a solid to walters since walters is STAT's agent. it had everything to do with ANTONI and zero to do with walsh. listen to the pod cast. isola covers the team. i believe him.

RE: randolph -- "garbage every time" - yea, i agree. do you know why? because he was playing scared because d'antoni would yank him for one mistake. the guy never looked relaxed. rather than instilling confidence (the guy clearly has confidence issues, don nelson brought him to tears one time) and saying "we believe in you, you're a super talented player, we'll figure out a way to get you involved in our offense even though you can't shoot" antoni basically said "if you screw up once i'm pulling you." it's like a baseball manager sitting on the top step and having a reliever warming up in the pen when a starter with confidence issues is pitching. not the best way to handle talent that has issues.

and "every time" LOL yea since he really played a boatload. he saw action in 17 games, 7 of which were garbage time by my count. randolph was IN the rotation at the beginning of the year and yanked because he looked uncomfortable and MDA went to a SEVEN MAN rotation for a winning streak and stuck with it on the logic of "if it aint broke dont fix it" even though the season is 82 games and the winning streak was in november. comical.

fire antoni.

GAWD you guys are such Randolpg apologists. Was Landry Fields yanked becuase of each mistake he made? And Landry Fields was a Rookie with no experience yet he had the toughness to duke it out and earn his spot. MDA plays people who can ball, Randolph had his shot and he FUCKED UP! get over it.He will always overacheive for losing teams in losing efforts where even the fans don't give a ****.

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:trick question: ask me in the offseason when we know what other coaches are available. if doc or phil jackson are available, i would can d'antoni in a minute and offer them a boatload. they are legitimate coaches, MDA is a fun gimmick coach to have but will not have playoff success (we'll see how it plays out, right?).

LOL i dont understand all of this "he desereves a legitimate roster." that is quite dubious given that it was D'Antoni who refused to play anthony randolph. randolph averaged 11 points 5 boards a block and a steal in the month of march -- basically what he averaged last year in GS, yet he couldn't get off the pine in NYK. why?

randolph turned into corey brewer, who also couldn't play in this system. according to his agent, 12 teams called, and he wound up with the mavs, the 3rd team in the west. if the 3rd team in the west could use him, why can't the 7th team in the east use him? perplexing.

he also spent the first two years in NYK playing has-beens on expiring contracts instead of developing younger guys (it took gallo half a season to get off the bench, TD an entire season, jordan hill never played, darko never played). we have an awful depth problem and an awful size problem and yet darko is putting up 9/5 and 2 blocks for the twolves and not us. why? because he couldn't "fit" in the system IE he couldn't hit a corner 3.

so the knicks could have two more adequate guys with size in the rotation had MDA actually developed players and not just stuck with who could hit the 3 ball. (jon bender over darko, eddie house over toney D, al harrington over gallo, billy walker over randolph, etc etc)

nalod -- let's get two things straight - (1) amare came to NY because they were willing to pay him $100 million and nobody else was. this has been well documented. in fact, he had to have a sit down with MDA to make sure they were on the same page. amare didn't sign here to play for the mustache. (2) melo wanted to play in NY because he wanted to be in NY. MDA had nothing to do with it. i don't think melo cares about who's coaching him, he's the best scorer in the league, he doesn't need MDA's corner 3 ball offense to put up 30.

regarding the defensive coach, yea, great idea. wasn't d'antoni's refusal to bring on thibodeau in phoenix the reason why he got canned? LOL good luck with that.

FACT. fire this bum and sign a real head coach who understand what it takes to win.

the corey brewer had nothing to do with d'antoni not playing, he was instructed by walsh to not play him because he was going to be bought out either way as a favor to brewer's agent happy walters who the knicks have alot of dealings with. nothing to do with d'antoni.

second of all - randolph was garbage everytime he played, yeah it's nice he's playing for the t'wolves but they arne't in the middle of a playoff hunt and the knicks are. randolph was a detriment to the team when he was in the game because he was only interested in playing PG instead of rebounding, blocking shots and doing the things he's good at.

RE: brewer -- according to the bill simmons/frank isola pod cast last week, it was ANTONI who said to walsh "i'm not gonna play this guy, you might as well release him." walsh released him as a solid to walters since walters is STAT's agent. it had everything to do with ANTONI and zero to do with walsh. listen to the pod cast. isola covers the team. i believe him.

RE: randolph -- "garbage every time" - yea, i agree. do you know why? because he was playing scared because d'antoni would yank him for one mistake. the guy never looked relaxed. rather than instilling confidence (the guy clearly has confidence issues, don nelson brought him to tears one time) and saying "we believe in you, you're a super talented player, we'll figure out a way to get you involved in our offense even though you can't shoot" antoni basically said "if you screw up once i'm pulling you." it's like a baseball manager sitting on the top step and having a reliever warming up in the pen when a starter with confidence issues is pitching. not the best way to handle talent that has issues.

and "every time" LOL yea since he really played a boatload. he saw action in 17 games, 7 of which were garbage time by my count. randolph was IN the rotation at the beginning of the year and yanked because he looked uncomfortable and MDA went to a SEVEN MAN rotation for a winning streak and stuck with it on the logic of "if it aint broke dont fix it" even though the season is 82 games and the winning streak was in november. comical.

fire antoni.

GAWD you guys are such Randolpg apologists. Was Landry Fields yanked becuase of each mistake he made? And Landry Fields was a Rookie with no experience yet he had the toughness to duke it out and earn his spot. MDA plays people who can ball, Randolph had his shot and he FUCKED UP! get over it.He will always overacheive for losing teams in losing efforts where even the fans don't give a ****.

For what is worth, D'Antoni had already expressed a liking of Fields after watching him at the summer league. The first time fans got to see how he felt about Randolph was the Milan game and it was clear right then and there that Randolph was not going to get a chance in NY. When you factor in that Randolph was the youngest player by two years on the team and was returning from an injury, having to deal with the obvious disapproval of his coach from the start doomed here.

People see what they want to see. I guess I saw a guy who couldn't even hold his own in garbage minutes leave alone real playing time. I saw the so called gazelle run the floor looking more like deer in the headlights and I saw nothing at all that convinced me taht he had the mental make up to play and succeed here. If you think an NBA head coach who is in the hottest seat in pro-sports try to put together a patchwork team of spare parts while trying to keep his job and develop players that were showing promise like Landry Fields, is going to devote time and energy to teach basketball fundamentals to a player in his second year, I really don't know what to tell you. But we have been there before, let's just agree to disagree.

nyk4ever wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:what about darko last year? darko didn't play but jon bender did and al harrington did. now both of those guys are gone, darko signed with minnesota and has given them valuable minutes at C, and we have to play small forwards at center.

thats not on antoni either right?

darko has personally said he takes full responsibility for last year because he showed up to the knicks (after d'antoni allowed him to show up late to be with his wife in europe for the birth of his child) completely out of shape and didn't give his best effort.

Darko was benched after seven games and his play and work ethic suffered because he saw no way out. He knew his situation was terrible and talked about not returning to the NBA because things were so bad here. He never said it was all his fault. He stood up and said he could have handled the situation better and apologized for it. D'Antoni could have handled it better as well but the 25 year old was the guy that came out and handled things like an adult in this situation.

it's always the chicken before the egg with you... he was benched FOR his poor work ethic and showing up to the knicks out of shape. darko himself even said it. how can you argue this point is beyond me. i know you hate d'antoni but be real once in a while.

"I tell (Mozgov) to do the opposite like I did," Milicic said. "I don't know how it will be for him, if he plays a lot. When I didn't play, I stepped aside. You need to work a lot and I didn't do it. If he doesn't play, practice hard."

martin wrote:

Juice wrote:All I know it took him about 20gms and lots of losing to figure out..... maybe just maybe he should expand his rotation. Lo and Behold we're back to .500 post trade. Sometime fans know what they are talking about

so what you are saying is that you in general are a better coach than MDA? Make better decisions especially on this count? Don't break your arm patting yourself on back.

What you make colossal changes, in almost anything, you work out the important parts first and then expand. Pretty simple.

or a better way of putting it..... losing makes the heart desperate. Once 7-12 came storming in.....

for D'AnToni

BigSm00th wrote:regardless of the mishandling of a guy like randolph, the fact remains, MDA is not the coach for this team long-term.

martin, fishmike, the rest of the apologists, i'd like to hear your responses to:

A) mda doesn't know how to coach D. we gave up almost 120 points to a lotto team two games ago that lost their leading scorer during the game. players, coaches, and writers all make a point of the fact that MDA is an offensive coach -- an innovator and a sharp guy -- but a guy that focuses on offense and believes in his system so much that he need not work on D. for those of you about to waste time disputing this, read the book 7 seconds or less. read about how he refused to take on thibodeau in phoenix. the guy doesn't care about D. http://www.aolnews.com/2008/12/12/mike-dantoni-suns-owner-still-fightin/.
B) defense wins championships. point me to one nba champion in the modern era that didn't play good D. it is far too late to look up the stats but i'd be shocked if there were an nba champ that wasn't a top 10 defensive team.
C) the knicks two best players and building blocks are carmelo and STAT. carmelo is widely regarded as, if not the best, the most versatile scorer in the game. he can score from anywhere, and he is clutch. STAT is as tough of a matchup as you can find on the post. both of these guys, however, thrive in iso settings and taking their guys 1 on 1. not necessarily a bad thing, but a fact.
D) MDA's offense relies on ball movement and good point guard play. his teams were so lethal in phoenix because of a stellar pg (nash) and great pieces around nash that knew their role, spaced the floor, and could hit shots.
E) putting C and D together, MDA's offensive coaching style doesn't fit what the knicks have. carmelo doesn't need a kick out, or spacing. carmelo can score in any situation, so can amare. what they need are 7 to 8 teammates who are tough, defense minded, athletic, and can rebound. MDA's system puts a preference on guys who can space the floor -- hence billy walker's playing over randolph all season (not trying to open up that can of worms, and i dont feel like debating the merits of tony randolph, but its a fact -- williams and walker played over randolph because they can shoot and randolph can't). MDA is too stubborn to adapt, so what we have is a mishmash of players and the great talents of melo and stat being suppressed when shawne williams moonlights as a C b/c he can stand in the corner and shoot in a 3 instead of a traditional C who will block shots, defend the rim, and rebound.

yes, the knicks are in the playoff. hooray. i am thrilled as anyone else here, having been posting at this place thru the doldrums of the last decade and hoping for stars like melo and STAT on our team. i was also excited about the d'antoni hiring when they first got him -- unfortunately, they never drafted a PG (jennings and lawson were both inexplicably passed over for a guy that MDA refused to play) or signed one that MDA could give the keys to and say "make my offense work." now he has two great scorers, but guys who don't need his system to score. not to mention, he doesn't emphasize D, and one could go so far as saying he refuses to coach it, stubbornly believing that if you score more, you win. he shuns the idea of bringing in a coach who has coached it effectively at the NBA level instead relying on nepotism and his inept brother dan. moreover, he is reluctant to develop young players who will cost him W's (i have yet to be provided an answer as to why guys like duhon, harrington and bender played over building blocks like gallinari, jordan hill, and douglas in the 09-10 season).

d'antoni may be the perfect coach for the golden state warriors. on a new york knicks team with carmelo anthony and amare stoudemire, given my reasons above, i don't think he will ever get us over the hump. get me a big name who has a ring and knows how to win. over the last 20 years, only 5 coaches have won a title (starting in 1990: phil jackson, rudy T, popovich, larry brown, riley, doc), so that may be tough. jerry sloan is available too. there are probably a few other guys who i am not thinking of, its late and i'm tired. (isiah LOL)

let the rest of the season play on, lets see how it goes in the playoffs. i am willing to see what MDA can do and whether he will "adapt." as GW Bush once said, "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice....can't fool me twice." i bet dolan's thinking the same thing. if the knicks give up a boat load of points and melo is sulking, chances are MDA is out. regardless of the fleeting success this offseason, MDA won't win a championship here.

Even with all the losing we still caught Philly and passed them. The last 5 wins the team has displayed much better defense. If you're looking for shutdown D from this team you're not going to get it. However, they have been playing decent D and when Mike's teams do that they win. The offense is still potent and when you mix that with at least avg. D it's a tough combination to beat.

If you notice CB and TD along with AC have been looking more comfortable lately. If you were paying attention, you may have noticed that the team is more comfortable with the sets and the motion off the ball. They're passing the ball very well and with purpose. They've also adjusted to Melo's ISO plays. They've kept the spacing much better than before. Melo has adjusted to being more of a catch and shoot player in this offense too. SO overall I disagree with you that Mike is the wrong coach for this team. What you have to realize is that Mike is as good with offense as Thibs is with defense. He's going to figure out how to use talent when he has it, even if that talent isn't used to playing the exact style he plays. IMO he's merged uptempo, spread floor, motion offense with the halfcourt ISO style very well.