OldFan wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!

Going forward this is about the team that can be build around Amare and Melo.

Nobody can see the missing pieces yet.

This is not about right or wrong. The proof is on the court and this season the trade so fars sucks.

Can they turn it around? Sure. I think either versions of this years team could have won a first round "upset".

If In two years the Knicks can fill in the holes and go to the conf. finals then your a final four team and its a success. After that, who knows.

We like melo, just not the deal. And since we can't see beyond Chauns its abstract.

"manning up" is implying someone is right and one is wrong.

We win, we'll all be happy. Lose, then its just a matter of agreeing on whose to blame.

Sounds like fun?

The deal has morphed into Melo bashing just like Hollinger's article...George Karl has taken his shots as well even after saying during the long trade specualtion that Melo was the reason he has a job...Everyone ignores Felton is the guy that is really missed...Everyone ignores Amare is probably playing at 60 percent for whatever reason...In life we have to take a chance at getting better...Melo is better than Chan and Gallo.. The right pieces around these two stars can make playing Chicago, Miami and running Boston into the sunset interesting...I really couldn't see that happening with our other roster...

I think you're mis-reading the article and what people are saying here. Melo is definitely the best player in the trade. The question is: what is the overall gain? The article is stating we got marginally better but now have almost no assets or cap space.

So if we are still way short of a championship and don't have assets how do we get the pieces to put around these guys? And it's a lot of pieces - because the star we picked up did not fill any of our holes and made some of them bigger. We are now a worse defensive team with a worse bench and still have no size. That's a lot to add to a team with almost nothing to work with.

Can it work out. I never say never and I'm hoping for the best. But it's a long shot.

I think Hollinger is being slick and taking another avenue to bash the trade and Melo ... We still have 20 mil in cap space after next season..an affordable PG like Felton can go a long way to adding pieces to help u compete..I'm not buying what Hollinger is selling..

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!

Going forward this is about the team that can be build around Amare and Melo.

Nobody can see the missing pieces yet.

This is not about right or wrong. The proof is on the court and this season the trade so fars sucks.

Can they turn it around? Sure. I think either versions of this years team could have won a first round "upset".

If In two years the Knicks can fill in the holes and go to the conf. finals then your a final four team and its a success. After that, who knows.

We like melo, just not the deal. And since we can't see beyond Chauns its abstract.

"manning up" is implying someone is right and one is wrong.

We win, we'll all be happy. Lose, then its just a matter of agreeing on whose to blame.

Sounds like fun?

The deal has morphed into Melo bashing just like Hollinger's article...George Karl has taken his shots as well even after saying during the long trade specualtion that Melo was the reason he has a job...Everyone ignores Felton is the guy that is really missed...Everyone ignores Amare is probably playing at 60 percent for whatever reason...In life we have to take a chance at getting better...Melo is better than Chan and Gallo.. The right pieces around these two stars can make playing Chicago, Miami and running Boston into the sunset interesting...I really couldn't see that happening with our other roster...

Do you realize how bad it is if Amare can't make it healthily through a full season anymore and we have him on a max contract for another five years?

U think it will be as bad as maxing out the guys (DLee, Gallo,and Chandler) that orchestrated 29 wins last season?

No, but I did not want any of these players in question to be on six year max contracts.

And just for the record..I thought Donnie was insane giving Amare that contract...I think Killa and myself were the only ones questioning Donnie giving a guy with bad knees 100 mil...But whats done is done...No turning back now...Donnie played his hand and he is all in...

So what were you going to do when Chandler and Gallo wants to get paid?...Are you targeting any free agents??...Who are you building around?

Killa4luv wrote:A genuine rebuild would require us to really suck, get a top 5 or top 3 pick and move forward from there with your young stars or star. Not young role players or even young solid players. We were not on track to do that ever. We got a #6 pick and got a good young player (Gallo) who is not a star and you cannot build a championship team around him. Brook Lopez would have been a better pick for a rebuild because he's 7 feet and he's a center.

Adding Amare to the mix of players wasn't going to get us anywhere. Adding a few solid defensive players to this current mix will net us some results, if Amare can come back alive.

All these arguments neglect the reality of cap space. We had cap space, we had contracts where we were underpaying for talent. We had room to maneuver, to outright sign a max player.

The problem is, we traded assets AND we filled our max cap space slot with a player that doesn't deserve EITHER.

This was a critical mistake that will take years to recover.

knickstorrents wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Melo played really well against Orlando, on both sides of the ball. Is this going to be his norm from now on? I don't know and neither does anyone else. The only thing that is certain is that time will tell. The guy is still only 26 years old and has years of basketball ahead of him.

The only types of players that improve after age 26, tend to be big centers who take a while to develop. Carmelo unfortunately is a wing scorer... these types of players do not typically get much better after 26. We are seeing his peak really.

Yup 39/10/5 tonight and another solid defenseive effort. Has anyone taken into consideration that maybe Melo playing D wasn't stressed in Denver? The kid is coachable.

CashMoney wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Melo played really well against Orlando, on both sides of the ball. Is this going to be his norm from now on? I don't know and neither does anyone else. The only thing that is certain is that time will tell. The guy is still only 26 years old and has years of basketball ahead of him.

The only types of players that improve after age 26, tend to be big centers who take a while to develop. Carmelo unfortunately is a wing scorer... these types of players do not typically get much better after 26. We are seeing his peak really.

Yup 39/10/5 tonight and another solid defenseive effort. Has anyone taken into consideration that maybe Melo playing D wasn't stressed in Denver? The kid is coachable.

see, that's a very weird tact to take.

On one hand you are suggesting that MDA suggested Melo play D, lots of people will find suggesting MDA does anything with defense preposterous.

On the other hand, you are also suggesting that coach Karl didn't stress defense with Melo, something that certain was not the case when he had the likes of The Glove and Shawn Kemp teams.

More likely Melo just woke up and realized that to win games with the type of roster NY had - and certainly the magnifying glass media exposure didn't hurt - that he HAD to play this way.

Just hoping it continues.

Antoni failed again to get his team ready for tonight's game. Giving up almost 70 points in the first half to one of the worst teams in the NBA.

Get a coach in here that understands a half court offense and a defensive scheme and get on these players to bust their tails on both ends of the court.

Killa4luv wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Nonetheless, he has never finished in the top 10 in the league in player efficiency rating. Not once. In 2009-10 he posted a career high in PER, and it placed him 13th, right in front of former Knicks immortal David Lee.

2 things, David Lee's PER is useless as a tool to evaluate him. He can hit an open shot from 12-15 automatically, and is a very good rebounder. Bad man on man and help defender. He is Kurt Thomas with hops.

Right now, Derrick Rose who the whole world thinks is the runaway candidate for MVP is 14th in the league in PER.

All of you who voted D.Rose as MVP but think Hollinger's analysis of Melo is accurate, do you care to explain?

Hollinger is in love with PER cause he invented it. But when you have players Kevin Love as #1, and D. ROse as 14, not 13 like Melo used to be, u should know something is a little wrong.

Your reasoning suggests that Lee's PER overstates his value but does not support the claim that the PER is useless. Regarding your second question, everyone here (and actually even Hollinger!) has suggested using PER ratings in addition to considering factors not measured by the PER system (which generally don't do Melo any favors but may help Rose).

AnubisADL wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:I dont take ESPN opinion pieces serious because ESPN is the ULTIMATE bandwagoner.

Hollinger pieces aren't really opinions since he brings statistical evidence in.

Statistics can be skewed to prove any point. It all depends on what parameters go into calculating the stat.

Hollingers stats dont account for Carmelo seeing double teams on the nightly basis. Having pressure defense applied nightly has numerous effects on the type of shots Melo has to take as well. But of course Hollingers magical stats dont account for that.

wouldnt double teams and shot selection be a constant among top PER players?

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

fishmike wrote:great... I was blaming Melo all along, but its really VMart, jzhustla, PMS and Anubis I should blame!

Its funny. You say things like what are in this article and your a hater. Cant tell you how many times I said the same stuff... that Melo is good but not a superstar, but you cant have that discussion around here. People here have been blinded and sold and bought in on what this guy is. He's a really good scorer and not much else. He's a piece, and a complimentary piece, not a build around piece.

He's Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas or Tracy McGrady... he's an all star, because everyone loves a guy who scores 25 a game and can beat his man.

No one here has compared Melo to Kobe or Lebron, at least I haven't. You're just shoving words into people's mouths. You want to call him a complimentary piece to a superstar, that's fine? I'll take that. But with the way things are going lately, Amar'e is the complimentary piece and Melo is the superstar. He's a really good scorer, AND an above average rebounder for a SF, you seem to constantly underrate him for that as well. He has that second aspect of his game that Vince, Gilbert, and McGrady never had. I think Melo is exactly the kind of player that falls IN BETWEEN the Kobe and Vince tiers.

Now let's fire D'antoni please.

he averages 1 more rebound a game than Vince did and Vince was a guard. Thats the extra aspect? Melo has big rebounding games but there is nothing elite about that part of his game.

You just admit Melo is a 2nd tier guy. I thought the arguement was stars win titles and role players dont. Are we changing that arguement to stars AND 2nd tier players win titles now?

The Kobe Lebron stuff isnt me sticking words in your mouth. The guys who loved this trade sold it as bringing a star here, the kind of star that you could build a championship around. So who's won titles? Shaq, Kobe, KG, Duncan, Wade... but you just said Melo isnt in that group. I agree. He's not. Melo is a very exciting player and he is a bigtime scorer, not the same caliber as those guys.

you put those words in your own mouth. Is a 2nd tier player worth trading 4 rotation guys, a pick, a prospect and using all your cap space for? Not in my opinion. Thats all I have ever tried to say here, but the pro-trade guys like yourself have never listened to that. Instead you hear:

I hate Melo because I say he's not a superstar
Gallo and Mosgov are better then Melo, etc

I never said those things. I dont think anyone has. Maybe blobman but do we really count that?

Anyway its nice to see Melo have a couple big games, but you talk to Den fans or watch his career and these nights are never the problem. The problem is the daily commitment to the team game, which he has never shown. Nobody here is anti Melo. They were anti trade. Melo's game has too many holes to justify trading a good young roster for.

Melo will be a different player here. The tier 1, tier 2 argument will cease and desist once it's all said and done.