Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:As far as scouting useful players, I really gotta question the Knicks a little bit..I've always had the feeling that they either aren't looking in the right places for cheap talent or even if are, I feel Donnie might not have the confidence that his stubborn-as-sin-head coach would play the talent he's thought about bringing in (see Anthony Randolph, Derrick Brown, Corey Brewer, Andy Rautins, Jordan Hill), hence there would be no point..If that's how Donnie's going about his business, based on Mike's approval, then there's truly something wrong here.

Fields, Moz, Shawne Williams kind of throw that theory off?

There have been exceptions: Fields is a good player (my favorite Knick in fact) and an EXCELLENT find..Shawne Williams turned out to be a very useful player (again good job by the orgainzation) but one we lean way too heavily on (come on, is this poor guy's role really to guard Dwight Howard one on one in the post??) and a guy, based on his surprisingly fine play this year, we might not even be able to keep..I didn't like Mozgov. i know you did--I did not. Too much money (a cap burden actually) for an unproven player who needs a ton of work. I still stand by my point: if Donnie is not going after young players that we could slide in and help the immediate cause, something I suspect might be going on, because of his coach's inability to being open to possibilities, it's a problem. Jeff Adrien has abilities we could've used yet Golden State grabs him, we didn't..Ditto Marcus Cousin with Utah..At least Cousin just became available again..I'd jump on him in a heartbeat but who knows if MDA would even play the kid. He probably wouldn't which renders the whole idea a waste of everyone's time.

Forget the playoffs---if we don't get the 6th seed and we finish with a worse record than Houston, I'd seriously consider a different coach..

at the beginning of the year the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the league. Isn't your premise a bit off? Donnie brought all (most) of those players in, and in fact it was my distinct impression that both Donnie and MDA wanted to keep them.

You can't argue too much against the likes of Chandler, TD, Fields, Moz, Gallo, Shawne Williams, Billy Walker getting a lot of playing time and being very young as a group. Some of those guys are rookies, some of them new, most of them small'ish, not all of them played well all the time. MDA/Donnie swung and missed on a couple of others so far: AR, Brown, Rautins. I think that's not too bad odds.

What you are suggesting is that Donnie didn't bring in the guys you keep listing, nor has he played roulette with the roster after he just up-heaved it again for the 4th time in 3 years.

Jeff Adrien, can he play C? I guess I don't know too much about Cousin, but why didn't he stick on Utah?

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:As far as scouting useful players, I really gotta question the Knicks a little bit..I've always had the feeling that they either aren't looking in the right places for cheap talent or even if are, I feel Donnie might not have the confidence that his stubborn-as-sin-head coach would play the talent he's thought about bringing in (see Anthony Randolph, Derrick Brown, Corey Brewer, Andy Rautins, Jordan Hill), hence there would be no point..If that's how Donnie's going about his business, based on Mike's approval, then there's truly something wrong here.

Fields, Moz, Shawne Williams kind of throw that theory off?

There have been exceptions: Fields is a good player (my favorite Knick in fact) and an EXCELLENT find..Shawne Williams turned out to be a very useful player (again good job by the orgainzation) but one we lean way too heavily on (come on, is this poor guy's role really to guard Dwight Howard one on one in the post??) and a guy, based on his surprisingly fine play this year, we might not even be able to keep..I didn't like Mozgov. i know you did--I did not. Too much money (a cap burden actually) for an unproven player who needs a ton of work. I still stand by my point: if Donnie is not going after young players that we could slide in and help the immediate cause, something I suspect might be going on, because of his coach's inability to being open to possibilities, it's a problem. Jeff Adrien has abilities we could've used yet Golden State grabs him, we didn't..Ditto Marcus Cousin with Utah..At least Cousin just became available again..I'd jump on him in a heartbeat but who knows if MDA would even play the kid. He probably wouldn't which renders the whole idea a waste of everyone's time.

Forget the playoffs---if we don't get the 6th seed and we finish with a worse record than Houston, I'd seriously consider a different coach..

at the beginning of the year the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the league. Isn't your premise a bit off? Donnie brought all (most) of those players in, and in fact it was my distinct impression that both Donnie and MDA wanted to keep them.

You can't argue too much against the likes of Chandler, TD, Fields, Moz, Gallo, Shawne Williams, Billy Walker getting a lot of playing time and being very young as a group. Some of those guys are rookies, some of them new, most of them small'ish, not all of them played well all the time. MDA/Donnie swung and missed on a couple of others so far: AR, Brown, Rautins. I think that's not too bad odds.

What you are suggesting is that Donnie didn't bring in the guys you keep listing, nor has he played roulette with the roster after he just up-heaved it again for the 4th time in 3 years.

Jeff Adrien, can he play C? I guess I don't know too much about Cousin, but why didn't he stick on Utah?

Not for anything but Fields and Williams are different types altogether -- D'Antoni had an entire summer league (Fields), training camp/preseason and the better part of an entire NBA season to fully evaluate both guys..He had the luxury to take his time..I'm talking about targeting a young guy straight outta the DL and giving him a chance to help on the fly, something I feel that D'Antoni isn't comfortable with at all (see Derrick Brown), even if Donnie were open to possibilities..You can't convince me that Golden State and Utah should have beaten us to the punch for two players we could've definitely used..That's what it boils down to for me. I bet anything that if Donnie even had his eye on guys like Adrien and Cousin, D'Antoni would be against it, the SAME EXACT WAY posters on this board are against it---afraid of anything they're not familiar with..Plus, let's be honest, D'Antoni is all about wins..In his and his coaches' minds, I bet they believe they're better off with the veteran "bigman" Jeffries over a guy like Marcus Cousin or Jeff Adrien, two players they might not be too familiar with..I'm here to say they're wrong..If a lot of us can say 'in Donnie we trust' why can't Mike and his staff? Very little if any proof of this mind you--just a feeling I have.

Jeff Adrien can't play C (well hey maybe he can; he'd probably do a better job than Shawne Williams who D'Antoni uses to defend that position all the time) but STAT can. Adrien can play a nasty/dirty-work 4 though and he'd be a much better power frontcourt mate than ANYTHING Amar'e's played with this year----namely Mozgov, Turiaf and now Jeffries.

Ditto Marcus Cousin. He didn't stick in Utah because Millsap just came back (thanks Paul for your big game last night in taking down the Rockets btw ) to go along with Jefferson, Favors and Fesenko. They even run deeper with Francisco Elson and young PF Jeremy Evans...He was just an insurance policy until they got Millsap back--a placeholder..I'm telling you guys he's more than that..In Utah he was a placeholder; over here he'd be my starting center. He's a better all-around player than Jeffries and Turiaf. So is Adrien..Not even close..Shouldn't that be the point? To add players that might be better and give you more than what you currently have??

misterearl wrote:

nixluva wrote:Dolan wasn't gonna let that happen. It's that simple. He wanted to bring in the big name come hell or high water. Once he was involved any other plans went out the window. That still doesn't change the fact that we have this coming off season to look to build up the roster. That was always going to be part of the plan anyway, but now we'll be looking to do a little more than we wanted to. Walsh's job is tougher, but that's why he gets paid.

nixluva - let's say you are a gifted and recognized artist. You are in the twilight of your long career. You have been working for decades and building a reputation as one of the most talented artists in your media. Just for creative purposes, you were commissioned to sculpt a masterpiece that would represent the hopes of New Yorkers and make them proud. Let's imagine the work would go on display in a prominent location, let's say.... at Seventh Avenue and 33rd Street. After three years of labor, your sponsor came into your studio, surveyed the work and decided to take a sledgehammer to it. The work survives, but it looks nothing like what you intended. It's missing some key features.

Would you be interested in continuing the commission, probably for another 2-3 years, or would you resign?

Poor analogy in that the plan was always to acquire 2 Elite players. The role players were always secondary to the process. If we couldn't make a deal then we could still go forward with the guys we had, but if a deal was made and it became necessary those role players would have to be sacrificed. Elite players are rare and role players are not. That's the calculation you have to make. Now we have to continue to build around THIS CORE. IMO The process will be quicker and much better in the end.

Moonangie wrote:

misterearl wrote:

fishmike wrote:who's upset? The trade looks great for Denver right now and lousy for the Knicks. This trade had a downside although the Melo jock riders refused to believe it existed. Funny how the guys that didnt like the trade preached patience in letting our good young players grow, that these things take time. Meanwhile guys like you ensured the rest of us that Gallo, Chandler, AR, etc would never be the caliber player Melo was, bla bla bla.

There are two problems. One Melo isnt as good as some of you thought. A lot of people around here locked him in as top 10 player or even a top 5 player and expected the type of impact when KG went to Boston. Melo is a not an MVP caliber player and is not an elite rebounder, defender or playmaker. I made a comparison and I will stick too it. Melo is a pre injury Arenas. He's a monster scorer who can drop 40 on you at anytime and take over games. He's got big holes though.

And dont poo poo the guys that left. Before the trade rumors were bothering them they were playing very well and getting better. There was no reason not to resign Chandler to a modest contract. He wanted to be here. We had a young, big skilled and deep roster and a star who get big buckets and carry the youths when needed:
PG Felton, Douglas
SG Fields, Walker
SF Gallo, Chandler
PF Amare, Williams
C Mosgov, Turiaf

Thats a deep team everyone but Amare/Felton 25 years old or younger. Thats a good start. We scrapped it to be a win now team built around 2 high scoring forwards who dont too much else and we have taken quite a step backward.

What cracks me up is guys like me who believed in our young players preached patience. The pro Melo at all costs guys are now saying the exact same things.. its going to take a year, maybe more to build up the roster around these guys. Its pretty funny.

I dont like the trade but I understand why the Knicks felt like they had to do it. I dont have to lovingly embrace Melo any more than I had to lovingly embrace Marbury (same caliber player). Everything about Melo says top NBA player. I think we are all waiting.

This could be the linchpin right back to the way things were before Walsh. Overpaid over hyped players that point fingers and lose a lot of games.

Exactly.

Brilliantly and succinctly crafted.

+2 but I am willing to be patient.

I wish we still had the yoots because I think with Eddie's deal coming off the books we would have had ample cap space to add the missing pieces, and lots of unexplored upside in Gallo and Moz. Now we seem locked into the tres amigos plan (a la Melo's wedding toast) and there's reason to think it will be successful. I am not prepared to prejudge Melo, even though I agree he is more Diva than well-rounded player.

I dont root against players on my own team. When it comes to that (as it did w/ Marbury and Isiah) I just stop watching. I WANT Melo to do well here.

You guys who wanted this trade... well, you got it, and everything that comes with it. Lots of style, not so much substance. The bottom line is Melo's effort is lacking. He takes plays off. I understand EVERY NBA player except maybe like 2 do that. But not when youve annoited yourself one of the greats, your team is losing and YOUR the star thats supposed to get us on track.

How are we supposed to win a title when our star player cant stop Carlos Delfino? Or Gallo, or anyone else he guards all game?

I'm sorry.. you guys sold Melo as a "do anything it takes to get him here" and he simply isnt. Never was.

Finestrng.. your either the most knowledgable person in the world when it comes to NBA rejects or the least. The guys your talking about are total garbage. The fact that a great GM like Walsh picked JJ, Shawn Williams, DBrown, etc over them tells you all you need to know. They are available for a reason. They stink

I love how people KILL the coach because he doesnt care about defense and refuses to play defensive stoppers like Anthony Carter and Sheldon Williams. Then he plays those guys and wow... do they SUCK.

Mosgov was a 7'1 athletic guy and playing better and better. He had the one breakout game, but it was sign of things to come. Gallo, Chandler and Felton arent just role players. They are good caliber starters. You dont trade them all for one guy who doesnt defend or impact the game if he's not chucking up 25 shots.

Your never winning a title built around two forwards who dont guard or rule the glass. Now Detroit did win a title and played in like 5 straight ECFs with a team of big versatile players which is what we were working towards building.

Im totally patient. I fulled expect in 2014 when we have an all star center, PG and SG next to Melo we will be an elite team. I'm just countin the days !

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:I'm sorry I'm not buying it. Chandler (22), Gallo (22), Felton (26), Mosgov (25), AR (21) + a pick are all gone for one guy in the long term plans but your selling me on a brighter future?

One of the arguments for obtaining Melo is that players will want to play with Melo, Amear, and the third option. That third option doesn't come here if you have to resign those three guys. The team should be able to recruit players of decent talent to replace those players, and has shown a willingness to purchase picks.

The argument is

Melo + Billups/3rd option + future additions >>>> Chandler + Gallo + Felton + Mozgov + AR + pick

Gallo is player that will be difficult to replace. Chandler was the 23rd pick. Felton and Mozgov were free agent acquisitions. AR was a reclamation project. I won't speculate about the 2014 pick.

I feel the Knicks will be able to obtain comparable talents practically immediately. Not to mention, TD and Shawne Williams are getting a lot of the free up minutes and I have been quite pleased with their progression.

Maybe you disagree with that assessment, but I do believe 70-80 percent of those pieces can and will be replaced quickly.

So, if it is: Melo, Dwight, purchased pick, two players with something to prove/late first round picks, and a player another franchise gave up on, yes, I think that is a significantly brighter future than the traded away Knuggets

Where does Dwight Howard suddenly become a sure thing?

Purchased pick? This ain't Wal Mart.

The Knicks have yet to settle the front office and the more important... the architect who made it possible to feel good about being a Knicks fan, Donnie Walnuts, ain't guaranteed to stick around.

Sheesh.

misterearl wrote:
"Finestrng.. your either the most knowledgable person in the world when it comes to NBA rejects or the least. The guys your talking about are total garbage. The fact that a great GM like Walsh picked JJ, Shawn Williams, DBrown, etc over them tells you all you need to know. They are available for a reason. They stink"

Exactly

You cannot stop fishmike. You can only hope to contain him.

Spoken and supported by two of the bigger closed-minded individuals on this site apparently..That's just sheer ignorance boys, point blank..Explain to me why Marcus Cousin and Jeff Adrien "stink." There are actually other DL guys I like too (Othyus Jeffers, DeShawn Sims to name two more---Jeffers was actually called up not too long ago) but for now, let's just stick with these two..I wouldn't want to overload your brains with too much information here..Not even sure why I'm entertaining it but what the hell, go for it: any evidence in their games, style of play or extremely solid production (both were DL all-stars this year, deservingly so) to support such a rediculous claim? What is it about either player that make you feel they "stink"? Just curious. Strong word to use right there, don't you think? Oh and yeah, don't take the easy cop-out answer 'well, are they playing in the NBA right now?' That's not much of an answer at all..There are a ton of good players not currently playing in the NBA, and many bad players who are..Remember, my original idea going back months now always had to do with coming up with some solid size and skill for the frontline at a good price while not jeopardizing 2012 cap room any further than needed. Explain to me why these guys wouldn't be better options than Jared Jeffries for this team based on our glaring needs and what little Jeffries does for us..Anxiously awaiting an educated response, hopefully I get one and not more insults..Earl, I know you're basically around for comic relief, but by all means take a stab at this yourself..Remember, educated answers only.

misterearl wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:I'm sorry I'm not buying it. Chandler (22), Gallo (22), Felton (26), Mosgov (25), AR (21) + a pick are all gone for one guy in the long term plans but your selling me on a brighter future?

One of the arguments for obtaining Melo is that players will want to play with Melo, Amear, and the third option. That third option doesn't come here if you have to resign those three guys. The team should be able to recruit players of decent talent to replace those players, and has shown a willingness to purchase picks.

The argument is

Melo + Billups/3rd option + future additions >>>> Chandler + Gallo + Felton + Mozgov + AR + pick

Gallo is player that will be difficult to replace. Chandler was the 23rd pick. Felton and Mozgov were free agent acquisitions. AR was a reclamation project. I won't speculate about the 2014 pick.

I feel the Knicks will be able to obtain comparable talents practically immediately. Not to mention, TD and Shawne Williams are getting a lot of the free up minutes and I have been quite pleased with their progression.

Maybe you disagree with that assessment, but I do believe 70-80 percent of those pieces can and will be replaced quickly.

So, if it is: Melo, Dwight, purchased pick, two players with something to prove/late first round picks, and a player another franchise gave up on, yes, I think that is a significantly brighter future than the traded away Knuggets

Where does Dwight Howard suddenly become a sure thing?

Purchased pick? This ain't Wal Mart.

The Knicks have yet to settle the front office and the more important... the architect who made it possible to feel good about being a Knicks fan, Donnie Walnuts, ain't guaranteed to stick around.

Sheesh.

it's not. But I was completely onboard with 2010. And considering this is a thread about THE FUTURE then you have to look at the top section of the binomial tree. As for the pick, citing a avenues for improvement, and considering we're possibly heading into lock out land, I'm sure some owners might want to pocket $3 million. Jeez Louise.

Our defense will be an issue until we get more quality size. We need a center that actually adds size to the lineup. Jefferies can do something defensively but he doesn't add size and he's not a real factor in terms of boxing out.