mreinman wrote:

mreinman wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

There is nothing to deal with. Your opinion is your opinion and is not a factual one. To try and pass it off as one is wrong.

Why are you bringing up other great coaches? Sloan's teams had tough competition (Seattle Sonics were amazing in the 90's) and came painstakingly close to a title but Michael Jordan did it again. Is Pat Riley a failure in NY because he couldn't win with Ewing and the crew against the Bulls too? Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, Popovich, Jackson, Skiles, Sloan...what do all these successful (for the most part) coaches have in common? They were all defensive-oriented coaches who got the most defense out of their players. That is something Mike D'Antoni will never be.

The players can have commitment and drive, but the coach is still the guy who controls the team. He controls minutes. He controls many things. If he yells at a guy he should yell at all the guys. If he is upset about the defense he should hold guys accountable. If he is upset with a player he should bench him. He should not play favorites and pick and choose where/who/when he holds accountable. He should let go of his ego and bring in an effective assistant coach. Doc Rivers credited the Celtics great defense to Tom Thibodeau. He did not take credit for it. He did not gloat about it. But he had the balls to hire a defensive guy in the first place instead of stubbornly trying to do things his way (aka the wrong way).

If you want to show undying support for a coach who has accomplished very little in his career with AND without his gimmick offensive style then go ahead. But to act like whatever you say is a fact and we should accept it is wrong. It's not a fact. In fact it's completely false.

Unrealistic Expectations: Lesson #2

Reading Comprehension is essential
Go back and read Lesson #1

I didn't support MDA anywhere on that post, I said no one better is avialble except Sloan. But you read what you wanted to. And Sloan couldn't win it despite being a "great defensive coach" AND "having to HOF-ers" and that's not my opinion, it's FACTORIAL.

How well did Kobe/Shaq motivate before Phil Jackson? MJ and Pippen under Doug Collins?

Did Jerry Sloan have his players playing hard every night or did they take nights off (ahem)?

Were Jerry Sloans HOFers anywhere close in talent to you know who and you know who?

Was he a huge underdog in the Finals? How did he do despite the odds?

Phil Jackson is coaching his last year (with the lakers). Not possible for Ego and offseason to mix?

Oh. And a good coach or player has nothing to do with the number of rings. It is all about effort and exceeding expectations.

Ah, someone who knows the definition of success.

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

I think the numbers TMS posted make it pretty clear that teams need to play good defense if they are going to win a cha it mpionship. D'Antoni has not been a good defensive coach. If you support him you think he can change and get his team to play championship basketball. Looking at the numbers in the initial post, has there been any indication that he can get his team to play defense at that level?

Either you didn't understand what I posted or you ignored it completely. I didn't argue with the data. When you fire a coach you need to find someone better than him. So far the only option is Sloan and based on the FACT that he couldn't win one with Stockton/Malone despite his top 10 defense and whatever, he isn't going to be that much better with a bunch of zombies.

The point of this thread wasn't to suggest that we need to fire this coach... it was to present an argument as to why people have legitimate concerns over this coach's philosophy... winning 60 games in the regular season is all well & good if you want to be forever known as the Seattle Mariners of basketball... most Knicks fans are aiming at higher goals, we want to win a championship regardless if it takes us winning 60 games or 45 games to get to the postseason the concern lies in how this team will perform in the postseason above all else... when you can't stop a team like the Pacers from scoring at will in your own house especially after a pathetic loss against the Mavs the game before i think it raises very legitimate concerns over whether this coach will ever be able to get these guys to put forth the type of defensive effort they're gonna need to get far in the playoffs, particularly when the team is lacking in the amount of depth his teams in Phoenix had around their 2 main stars.

And the point of my post was there aren't any coaches availables right now (Except Sloan) that can get them to provide that type of effort. I have the same long term goals you do and I doubt Sloan could win a championship with the team as it's currently constructed.

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

I think the numbers TMS posted make it pretty clear that teams need to play good defense if they are going to win a cha it mpionship. D'Antoni has not been a good defensive coach. If you support him you think he can change and get his team to play championship basketball. Looking at the numbers in the initial post, has there been any indication that he can get his team to play defense at that level?

Either you didn't understand what I posted or you ignored it completely. I didn't argue with the data. When you fire a coach you need to find someone better than him. So far the only option is Sloan and based on the FACT that he couldn't win one with Stockton/Malone despite his top 10 defense and whatever, he isn't going to be that much better with a bunch of zombies.

The point of this thread wasn't to suggest that we need to fire this coach... it was to present an argument as to why people have legitimate concerns over this coach's philosophy... winning 60 games in the regular season is all well & good if you want to be forever known as the Seattle Mariners of basketball... most Knicks fans are aiming at higher goals, we want to win a championship regardless if it takes us winning 60 games or 45 games to get to the postseason the concern lies in how this team will perform in the postseason above all else... when you can't stop a team like the Pacers from scoring at will in your own house especially after a pathetic loss against the Mavs the game before i think it raises very legitimate concerns over whether this coach will ever be able to get these guys to put forth the type of defensive effort they're gonna need to get far in the playoffs, particularly when the team is lacking in the amount of depth his teams in Phoenix had around their 2 main stars.

And the point of my post was there aren't any coaches availables right now (Except Sloan) that can get them to provide that type of effort. I have the same long term goals you do and I doubt Sloan could win a championship with the team as it's currently constructed.

I disagree. I think there are guys out there that could make a huge difference. I am not a Collins fan but the job he is doing in Philly is amazing. Thibs was an assistant and now as a head coach has his team playing well enough to make the finals. I also like the job Monty Williams has done and I have always liked Lawerence Frank. JVG was a lifer assistant before he got his chance with the Knicks. You are right about there not being a Riley type out there with hof credentials other than Sloan. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a guy who will become so possessed with the desire to win that he communicates that to his team and backs it up by watching so much film and being so meticulous in his preperation that he gets his team to play with effort on defense every night. I think there is a big difference between a guy that has that philosophy in his approach versus a guy that doesn't watch film and instead has his team live by the mantra that the opponent has to adjust to his team.

True, I was talking about coaches with HOF credentials. And I would take any of the coaches I named in my post over MDA, right now. And no I didn't include Thibs in that list, though I think he is doing a good job, but he still has much to prove. So Crushalot, who is available (not under contract thru the offseason) that can motivate this bunch to play top 10 level defense?

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

I think the numbers TMS posted make it pretty clear that teams need to play good defense if they are going to win a cha it mpionship. D'Antoni has not been a good defensive coach. If you support him you think he can change and get his team to play championship basketball. Looking at the numbers in the initial post, has there been any indication that he can get his team to play defense at that level?

Either you didn't understand what I posted or you ignored it completely. I didn't argue with the data. When you fire a coach you need to find someone better than him. So far the only option is Sloan and based on the FACT that he couldn't win one with Stockton/Malone despite his top 10 defense and whatever, he isn't going to be that much better with a bunch of zombies.

The point of this thread wasn't to suggest that we need to fire this coach... it was to present an argument as to why people have legitimate concerns over this coach's philosophy... winning 60 games in the regular season is all well & good if you want to be forever known as the Seattle Mariners of basketball... most Knicks fans are aiming at higher goals, we want to win a championship regardless if it takes us winning 60 games or 45 games to get to the postseason the concern lies in how this team will perform in the postseason above all else... when you can't stop a team like the Pacers from scoring at will in your own house especially after a pathetic loss against the Mavs the game before i think it raises very legitimate concerns over whether this coach will ever be able to get these guys to put forth the type of defensive effort they're gonna need to get far in the playoffs, particularly when the team is lacking in the amount of depth his teams in Phoenix had around their 2 main stars.

And the point of my post was there aren't any coaches availables right now (Except Sloan) that can get them to provide that type of effort. I have the same long term goals you do and I doubt Sloan could win a championship with the team as it's currently constructed.

again, it's not about who the coach is that i think can win a championship w/this team, it's about the overall philosophy of this head coach that i put into question... i am not confident that our guys will ever play the elite style of defense that it will take to make us into a legitimate title contender under this head coach, & it's not for lack of the types of role players that it takes to get there IMO... several championship squads i can point out that have had limited talent role players like the ones we have i don't think our bench is lacking for depth i think the problem lies in a fundamental problem with the system itself... adding 1 more piece like a shotblocking C with size might tip the scales towards achieving roster balance but that still won't address the questions being raised with this initial post that i quoted... it will take all these guys being on the same page defensively communicating & knowing where each other is on the floor at all times on rotations, & that can only be achieved by coaching them under the right mindset... to be fair i think MDA deserves more time with this current roster to realistically expect that to happen, but the way this team is playing down to the level of their competition is highly worrysome to me... i saw that alot out of the '99 squad & honestly if not for a strike shortened season that year i don't believe we would have even made the playoffs to make that magical run to the Finals to begin with.

TMS, I agree with what you are saying. But raising questions about the coach is not going to help us unless we can find a coach who is available, can handle the presure and will take this job.

SupremeCommander wrote:

mreinman wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I think MDA's offense could be a winner. I would love to see him match the up-and-down intensity on offense with the defense. The offense is unconventional. I would love to see the defense be as frenetic and unconventional too. Why can't the team employ a trap to compliment SSOL? You know, really run the other team out of the gym?

He is definitely an innovative offensive coach but I for one have a problem with the live and die by the 3 mentality. They cannot win consistently that way.

agreed. part of the system is to trust the players' decision making though. not really a coincidence that the team gets more experience and they play longer into the shot clock (doesn't mean the execution is better though)

the live & die by the 3 approach is a fundamental problem i have w/this offensive strategy too, but we seem to score enough points for the most part to win games it's stopping the other team from scoring on the other end that has been our weakness... i like the talent we have it's just a question of getting them to play hard on every night & not just against the top teams in the NBA but also against the lesser teams... they can't take any games for granted for the rest of this season.

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

I think the numbers TMS posted make it pretty clear that teams need to play good defense if they are going to win a cha it mpionship. D'Antoni has not been a good defensive coach. If you support him you think he can change and get his team to play championship basketball. Looking at the numbers in the initial post, has there been any indication that he can get his team to play defense at that level?

Either you didn't understand what I posted or you ignored it completely. I didn't argue with the data. When you fire a coach you need to find someone better than him. So far the only option is Sloan and based on the FACT that he couldn't win one with Stockton/Malone despite his top 10 defense and whatever, he isn't going to be that much better with a bunch of zombies.

The point of this thread wasn't to suggest that we need to fire this coach... it was to present an argument as to why people have legitimate concerns over this coach's philosophy... winning 60 games in the regular season is all well & good if you want to be forever known as the Seattle Mariners of basketball... most Knicks fans are aiming at higher goals, we want to win a championship regardless if it takes us winning 60 games or 45 games to get to the postseason the concern lies in how this team will perform in the postseason above all else... when you can't stop a team like the Pacers from scoring at will in your own house especially after a pathetic loss against the Mavs the game before i think it raises very legitimate concerns over whether this coach will ever be able to get these guys to put forth the type of defensive effort they're gonna need to get far in the playoffs, particularly when the team is lacking in the amount of depth his teams in Phoenix had around their 2 main stars.

And the point of my post was there aren't any coaches availables right now (Except Sloan) that can get them to provide that type of effort. I have the same long term goals you do and I doubt Sloan could win a championship with the team as it's currently constructed.

again, it's not about who the coach is that i think can win a championship w/this team, it's about the overall philosophy of this head coach that i put into question... i am not confident that our guys will ever play the elite style of defense that it will take to make us into a legitimate title contender under this head coach, & it's not for lack of the types of role players that it takes to get there IMO... several championship squads i can point out that have had limited talent role players like the ones we have i don't think our bench is lacking for depth i think the problem lies in a fundamental problem with the system itself... adding 1 more piece like a shotblocking C with size might tip the scales towards achieving roster balance but that still won't address the questions being raised with this initial post that i quoted... it will take all these guys being on the same page defensively communicating & knowing where each other is on the floor at all times on rotations, & that can only be achieved by coaching them under the right mindset... to be fair i think MDA deserves more time with this current roster to realistically expect that to happen, but the way this team is playing down to the level of their competition is highly worrysome to me... i saw that alot out of the '99 squad & honestly if not for a strike shortened season that year i don't believe we would have even made the playoffs to make that magical run to the Finals to begin with.

TMS, I agree with what you are saying. But raising questions about the coach is not going to help us unless we can find a coach who is available, can handle the presure and will take this job.

i don't think finding a defensive minded coach who can handle the pressure & will take this job is going to be a problem, i think there are any number of coaches out there that would kill for the opportunity to coach this team... whether they are necessarily the right coach to get this team to the next level i don't know but i do think that until we change our fundamental approach to playing defense this team will never be a legitimate title contender... if that can happen under MDA great, but nothing i've seen since he's been here has led me to believe he's the guy to get us there... believe me i would like for nothing else but for him to prove all the doubters wrong in the next few years... i'd be the first one to give him props for it & admit i was wrong for doubting him.

loweyecue wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

I think the numbers TMS posted make it pretty clear that teams need to play good defense if they are going to win a cha it mpionship. D'Antoni has not been a good defensive coach. If you support him you think he can change and get his team to play championship basketball. Looking at the numbers in the initial post, has there been any indication that he can get his team to play defense at that level?

Either you didn't understand what I posted or you ignored it completely. I didn't argue with the data. When you fire a coach you need to find someone better than him. So far the only option is Sloan and based on the FACT that he couldn't win one with Stockton/Malone despite his top 10 defense and whatever, he isn't going to be that much better with a bunch of zombies.

The point of this thread wasn't to suggest that we need to fire this coach... it was to present an argument as to why people have legitimate concerns over this coach's philosophy... winning 60 games in the regular season is all well & good if you want to be forever known as the Seattle Mariners of basketball... most Knicks fans are aiming at higher goals, we want to win a championship regardless if it takes us winning 60 games or 45 games to get to the postseason the concern lies in how this team will perform in the postseason above all else... when you can't stop a team like the Pacers from scoring at will in your own house especially after a pathetic loss against the Mavs the game before i think it raises very legitimate concerns over whether this coach will ever be able to get these guys to put forth the type of defensive effort they're gonna need to get far in the playoffs, particularly when the team is lacking in the amount of depth his teams in Phoenix had around their 2 main stars.

And the point of my post was there aren't any coaches availables right now (Except Sloan) that can get them to provide that type of effort. I have the same long term goals you do and I doubt Sloan could win a championship with the team as it's currently constructed.

I disagree. I think there are guys out there that could make a huge difference. I am not a Collins fan but the job he is doing in Philly is amazing. Thibs was an assistant and now as a head coach has his team playing well enough to make the finals. I also like the job Monty Williams has done and I have always liked Lawerence Frank. JVG was a lifer assistant before he got his chance with the Knicks. You are right about there not being a Riley type out there with hof credentials other than Sloan. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't a guy who will become so possessed with the desire to win that he communicates that to his team and backs it up by watching so much film and being so meticulous in his preperation that he gets his team to play with effort on defense every night. I think there is a big difference between a guy that has that philosophy in his approach versus a guy that doesn't watch film and instead has his team live by the mantra that the opponent has to adjust to his team.

True, I was talking about coaches with HOF credentials. And I would take any of the coaches I named in my post over MDA, right now. And no I didn't include Thibs in that list, though I think he is doing a good job, but he still has much to prove. So Crushalot, who is available (not under contract thru the offseason) that can motivate this bunch to play top 10 level defense?

JrZyHuStLa wrote:I have a problem with Mike Dantoni because of his inability to coach.

Just like Chauncey Billups is better than Steve Nash:) Nope wrong on both accounts. Knicks are mediocre--actually the team is not as good post trade. It was more of a team --does anyone think the Knicks as constituted could ever go 13-1 in any stretch? no way.

If melo didnt want to be a Knick unless ALL of his demands were met--we shouldve said FO. This has everything to do with money both for Dolan and melo. Melo is a brand and Dolan wanted to make sure he could provide a brand player who can keep us at a certain level so he could make ticket holders pay for his new renovations.

With Dolan its NOT about basketball--this was NOT a basketball trade--it was an insane trade. Why couldnt melo have waited like Bosh wade and LBJ?

Why is Denver playing better without melo? This stinks its a facade. yes we will win games yes we will kill some teams but overall its a very mediocre team. I do trust DW to fill in assets--that is if it snot IT--so its wait and see. But I would NOT have done this trade under the shotgun.

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Unrealistic expectations: Lesson 1

You guys want to run MDA out of town when he can't win with 2 all-stars, fine.
Just remember Jerry Sloan couldn't win a chip with 2 HOF-ers (HOF-ers >> All-stars see?)
JVG couldn't win anything in Houston either
Skiles = No chip
POP - NOT AVAILABLE
PJAX - LOL, seriously?

It takes a lot more than coaching, it takes commitment and drive from the players. Phil Jax didn't motivate the Bulls, MJ did. Rivers didn't motivate the Celts, KG did and still does. The overpaid/underaceiving players that pass as professionals in the NBA today need that type of in-your-face motivation on a daily basis to be able to get up and play. But yeah let's fire another 4 or 5 coaches.

For all the love Skiles and Sloan get exactly how many Chips do they have between themselves? I agree they are great coaches, both better than MDA, but firing and hiring coaches does not magically solve problems.

Yeah Popovich would be nice, but last I checked he is coaching the best team in the league and I don't hink he is drooling for the Knicks job. This coach is what he is, not the best but better than most. Deal with it.

I think the numbers TMS posted make it pretty clear that teams need to play good defense if they are going to win a cha it mpionship. D'Antoni has not been a good defensive coach. If you support him you think he can change and get his team to play championship basketball. Looking at the numbers in the initial post, has there been any indication that he can get his team to play defense at that level?

Either you didn't understand what I posted or you ignored it completely. I didn't argue with the data. When you fire a coach you need to find someone better than him. So far the only option is Sloan and based on the FACT that he couldn't win one with Stockton/Malone despite his top 10 defense and whatever, he isn't going to be that much better with a bunch of zombies.

The point of this thread wasn't to suggest that we need to fire this coach... it was to present an argument as to why people have legitimate concerns over this coach's philosophy... winning 60 games in the regular season is all well & good if you want to be forever known as the Seattle Mariners of basketball... most Knicks fans are aiming at higher goals, we want to win a championship regardless if it takes us winning 60 games or 45 games to get to the postseason the concern lies in how this team will perform in the postseason above all else... when you can't stop a team like the Pacers from scoring at will in your own house especially after a pathetic loss against the Mavs the game before i think it raises very legitimate concerns over whether this coach will ever be able to get these guys to put forth the type of defensive effort they're gonna need to get far in the playoffs, particularly when the team is lacking in the amount of depth his teams in Phoenix had around their 2 main stars.

And the point of my post was there aren't any coaches availables right now (Except Sloan) that can get them to provide that type of effort. I have the same long term goals you do and I doubt Sloan could win a championship with the team as it's currently constructed.

again, it's not about who the coach is that i think can win a championship w/this team, it's about the overall philosophy of this head coach that i put into question... i am not confident that our guys will ever play the elite style of defense that it will take to make us into a legitimate title contender under this head coach, & it's not for lack of the types of role players that it takes to get there IMO... several championship squads i can point out that have had limited talent role players like the ones we have i don't think our bench is lacking for depth i think the problem lies in a fundamental problem with the system itself... adding 1 more piece like a shotblocking C with size might tip the scales towards achieving roster balance but that still won't address the questions being raised with this initial post that i quoted... it will take all these guys being on the same page defensively communicating & knowing where each other is on the floor at all times on rotations, & that can only be achieved by coaching them under the right mindset... to be fair i think MDA deserves more time with this current roster to realistically expect that to happen, but the way this team is playing down to the level of their competition is highly worrysome to me... i saw that alot out of the '99 squad & honestly if not for a strike shortened season that year i don't believe we would have even made the playoffs to make that magical run to the Finals to begin with.

TMS, I agree with what you are saying. But raising questions about the coach is not going to help us unless we can find a coach who is available, can handle the presure and will take this job.

i don't think finding a defensive minded coach who can handle the pressure & will take this job is going to be a problem, i think there are any number of coaches out there that would kill for the opportunity to coach this team... whether they are necessarily the right coach to get this team to the next level i don't know but i do think that until we change our fundamental approach to playing defense this team will never be a legitimate title contender... if that can happen under MDA great, but nothing i've seen since he's been here has led me to believe he's the guy to get us there... believe me i would like for nothing else but for him to prove all the doubters wrong in the next few years... i'd be the first one to give him props for it & admit i was wrong for doubting him.

Name someone please. And no I don't think our philosophy is going to change under MDA. That is why I keep saying it's unrealistic to hope for it. MDA is going to go down coaching his system, his faith in it is what makes him who he is.

i'm not familiar with everyone that's available but before MDA was hired we could have easily hired Thom Thibadeau I believe he was a former assistant coach in the Knicks system but Dolan wanted a more glamorous name to take the helm & create some buzz while he knew the team was pretty much gonna be overhauled eventually anyway... when i see guys like Doug Collins getting maximum effort out of a far lesser talented team in Philly it leaves me scratching my head how a coach with MDA's credentials can't do the same for the Knicks when they now have 2 superstar players & a pretty deep supporting cast that includes another borderline Allstar in Billups, a ROY contender in Fields & a bunch of solid role players... you see George Karl getting a team full of lesser talent with no superstars in Denver playing the type of basketball they're currently playing & you wonder why MDA can't do the same for the Knicks... who the right coach is that can take us to a title is anyone's guess... i don't know if Phil Jackson or Jerry Sloan will ever be an option for us but i would take either of them over MDA if i could.