Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:At the time I thought this was such a ridiculous topic but after 2 months watching Carmelo play and after last nights game it really shows. Some guys want to hate for the sake of hating.

I've noticed that the only ones who actually are doing hating are the ones talking about hating--it's people like you who hate anything but constant praise for every Knick.

Bonn .. Never mind, just a joke.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:At the time I thought this was such a ridiculous topic but after 2 months watching Carmelo play and after last nights game it really shows. Some guys want to hate for the sake of hating.

All I could judge him on was his career jumpshooting performance up to the point of the thread, as I have no crystal ball. And his jumpshooting to that point was bad. In a VERY small sample of games since this thread, he has shot well (which I am very happy about). I never claimed he would shoot poorly in every small sample of games.

The point is , you are evaulating a player based on numbers, not on actually seeing him play. Everyone agrees Ray Allen is a great shooter yet look at his career #'s vs Melo, allens are lower. If you watch Melo play he has a great outside shot yet with all scorers they shoot such a high volume of shots their % will suffer. I call you a hater because I see every post of yours involving Melo is negative. Anyone that watched that game Tuesday and didn't appreciate what melo did in that game just doesn't know basketball.

Ive only watched Melo as a fan of his team for a couple months. One thing seems obvious.. when he's not scoring the rest of his game suffers. Seems like a simple solution: get him going early! I would like to see some early post ups, or at the elbow near the top of the key. Get him going early and feeling good and rolling and let everyone else feed off him. Let him and Douglas play the 2 man game some.

This notion of analyzing the types of shots he takes is silly. Some days it will be the jumper. Others he will destroy you in the paint and shoot 15 FTs. Whatever it is lets find it and ride this pony

fishmike wrote:for me MElo can take any shot he wants. All I would ask is if he misses a couple jumpers go attack the rim and get to the line.

Ive only watched Melo as a fan of his team for a couple months. One thing seems obvious.. when he's not scoring the rest of his game suffers. Seems like a simple solution: get him going early! I would like to see some early post ups, or at the elbow near the top of the key. Get him going early and feeling good and rolling and let everyone else feed off him. Let him and Douglas play the 2 man game some.

This notion of analyzing the types of shots he takes is silly. Some days it will be the jumper. Others he will destroy you in the paint and shoot 15 FTs. Whatever it is lets find it and ride this pony

fishmike - all Jared Jeffries needed to do was go straight up with a great pass and make the shot (or get fouled) and we are talking about one of the greatest upsets in playoffs history.

I like Carmelo as point forward as he was deployed on Tuesday night. His scoring is only one feature of his game. Unfortunately, he is such a dominant scorer that the nuance of his game gets overlooked. The 7 assists were just as sweet. I counted two perfect passes that were fumbled by Jeffries and another dime or two lost by Bill Walker misses.

It should have been ten assists. Can you say triple double?

BigRedDog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:At the time I thought this was such a ridiculous topic but after 2 months watching Carmelo play and after last nights game it really shows. Some guys want to hate for the sake of hating.

All I could judge him on was his career jumpshooting performance up to the point of the thread, as I have no crystal ball. And his jumpshooting to that point was bad. In a VERY small sample of games since this thread, he has shot well (which I am very happy about). I never claimed he would shoot poorly in every small sample of games.

The point is , you are evaulating a player based on numbers, not on actually seeing him play. Everyone agrees Ray Allen is a great shooter yet look at his career #'s vs Melo, allens are lower.

Anyone that watched that game Tuesday and didn't appreciate what melo did in that game just doesn't know basketball.

Andrew wrote:Kobe Career TS%: .556
Melo Career TS%: .545

Not much difference there. Should Kobe abandon the 3?

2.) What's more important is the fact that teams know they have to double and triple team him. They know they have to put their best defender on him. Big men have to be aware that he is going to go by his guy regularly and are constantly ready to help. This opens up the game for his teammates and it forces a coach to design a defense around stopping Melo instead of the Knicks. Unless you've coached or really know the game, it's tough to understand how important this is.

3.) Allan Iverson's shooting stats are garbage and yet he had more of an effect on the games he was in then any player of his time. Shaquille O'neal is fat and out of shape and yet his presence is still felt on the floor. Carmello has a similar effect.

4.) Carmelo has been with us for about 30 games. He's literally carreid us in at least 8 or 9 of those and has hit 2 or 3 game winners. He's put us on his back more times in 30 games then David Lee did in 5 years. He has more game winners then Gallo, Wilson and company combined. How do you watch this guy for 30 games and say he's an "above average player"? Because of shooting statistics?

5.)I don't think he's a Kobe level star but to put him in the class of an above average starter is ridiculous. The man can play.

6.)What prevents Carmelo from being a super duper star is the same thing that holds back Amare. Maybe it's the not playing more then a year in college. As Fish noted he doesn't have that mega superstar ability to take one the defense gives you/ or to go with whats working. He sticks with his game no matter how off he is and sometimes does not adjust. Amare does the exact same thing. The super/duper stars go with what is easiest. Carmelo has not learned this and sometiems gets frustrated because of it. This hurts his game. It annoys me, but not enough to hate him for it.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:At the time I thought this was such a ridiculous topic but after 2 months watching Carmelo play and after last nights game it really shows. Some guys want to hate for the sake of hating.

All I could judge him on was his career jumpshooting performance up to the point of the thread, as I have no crystal ball. And his jumpshooting to that point was bad. In a VERY small sample of games since this thread, he has shot well (which I am very happy about). I never claimed he would shoot poorly in every small sample of games.

The point is , you are evaulating a player based on numbers, not on actually seeing him play. Everyone agrees Ray Allen is a great shooter yet look at his career #'s vs Melo, allens are lower. If you watch Melo play he has a great outside shot yet with all scorers they shoot such a high volume of shots their % will suffer. I call you a hater because I see every post of yours involving Melo is negative. Anyone that watched that game Tuesday and didn't appreciate what melo did in that game just doesn't know basketball.

Bonn is an Allan Houston fan whose career FG% was 44.4% which is a whole point less than Carmelo who is shooting 45.9% for his career. Does Bonn thing Allan Houston should have never taken a jumpshot? No, he ever said that about Houston. What is with the dislike for Carmelo?

Two comments:
A) You're looking at the wrong statistic if you look at FG%. I don't get why people keep citing that thinking it has any baring on my claims. I've been clear that that is about as poor a statistic as batting average is in baseball.
B) I definitely see Carmelo as an above average NBA starter. Anyone claiming I think he's a bad player is not interested in honesty or a real discussion.

dude... has anyone here been more critical of Melo than me? But you have to be kidding me.

My knock on Melo is for all his talent he hasnt done anything to separate himself or his career from other guys who put up great #s, went to all star games and for some stretch or another were regarded as top NBA players. Arenas, Vince Carter, TMac all come to mind. You look at their careers and for 4-5 year stretchs all were regarded as top 10 NBA players. Yet I mention that around here and I am labeled hater or whatever else, but its true, and all the #s are there to back it up.

Above average NBA player? He is an elite NBA player. There is no debate that he is top 20. Its not up for discussion. Top 10? MAYBE you can come up with some criteria that would allow you to say RIGHT NOW there are 10 better players, but cant give me 15. So forget about the fringe guys... if Melo is a top 15 player of the 270(ish) NBA players getting regular rotation minutes that would put him in the top 5%. Kinda better than average no?

Melo has shown he can carry a team. He's shown he can single handedly win games. He's shown he can beat and outperform the BEST players in the NBA. The only question is if he's commited and driven enough to go from being one of the best players in the league to an elite player. To do that he's going to have to break through a series like the one we are in now and WIN.

Above average? If your worried about killing a healthy debate on how good he is or isnt thats gonna kill it faster than anything

This is a remarkably coherent post for you Fishmike.

Bippity10 wrote:I'm kind of with Fish on this. There's nothing wrong with saying Carmelo is TMac, or Vince etc. Those guys are/were great players and they don't need to apologize to anyone. But it's true, Melo and the crew listed have never won anything. The GREAT ONES have all won. You can't be included in that class until you put your team on your shouldesr and WIN. I agree with Fish, when/if he does this, there is no argument that he is elite. Until then he is another damn good player with something to prove. Same with Amare in my view. This may seem harsh, but I don't think it is. I think it just means they are a class below the very best. Again, no shame in that. You can win a title with guys like that. Just harder to build a team around guys at that level.

But to say he's just an above average player is beyond ridiculous

When you say win, or the great one's have won, are you referring to rings? If so, then thats a whole 'nother debate.

fishmike wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I'm kind of with Fish on this. There's nothing wrong with saying Carmelo is TMac, or Vince etc. Those guys are/were great players and they don't need to apologize to anyone. But it's true, Melo and the crew listed have never won anything. The GREAT ONES have all won. You can't be included in that class until you put your team on your shouldesr and WIN. I agree with Fish, when/if he does this, there is no argument that he is elite. Until then he is another damn good player with something to prove. Same with Amare in my view. This may seem harsh, but I don't think it is. I think it just means they are a class below the very best. Again, no shame in that. You can win a title with guys like that. Just harder to build a team around guys at that level.

But to say he's just an above average player is beyond ridiculous

The meds havent kicked in yet....

The whole Vince, TMac, Arenas thing.. thats just an observation, not a criticism. At any given time those 3 were regarded as the up and coming elite superstars of the NBA. Injuries derailed Arena's career but make no mistake, the guy was awesome and played Lebron toe to toe in a 6 game series and damn near carried the Wiz to a massive upset. Vince and TMac have both carried teams and won big playoff series as well and been regarded as being as talented and good as any player in the NBA. Now is it entirely their fault? NO. Is it entirely Melo's fault he hasnt broken through yet either? NO.

BUT

This is the criticism you have to deal with when being compared among the elite. Like was it Dan Marino's fault he never won a SB? Surely not. Does Brett Farve have a BIG notch in his belt that Marino doesnt? He sure does... same thing. GOOD players can be measured by scoring titles, all star games, contracts, etc etc. GREAT players are measured by WINS and their ability and history to WIN the big game, not just play GOOD in it.

Somehow because of the trade drama this has become a taboo subject around here. Its nuts! This is an internet message board!

More backhanded compliments from Fish. Your a hater just admit it and move on.