CrushAlot wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

TheGame wrote:I don't understand why we would give up Randolph if we are not getting a pick from Minny. If we give Minny $3 mill, then pretty much most of Curry's remaining salary would be paid by us. Why give them Randolph unless we are getting a pick back? We need to get at least a protected first round pick or two second round picks from Minny.

So it would seem that we can't even get Denver to take on Curry in this deal, and instead of trading Randolph for a #1, we are giving him to Minny so they will take Curry's contract, AND, we are basically paying Minny to take on Randolph and Curry... perhaps getting a trade exception.

Seems to me that we are being pretty generous to Denver, who has a star who no longer wants to play with them, and Minny, who is getting $3M, a young player who may still have an upside, and an expiring contract.

There are 4 "players" in involved, and 3 of them- Denver, Minny, and Melo, seem to be winners, while the Knicks, who thought they might be getting a FA star next summer for the cost of a contract, are fleeced for at least 3 starters, a prospect (Randolph) $3m, and OUR OWN 2014 #1.

Yeah, thank god Isiah Dolan stepped in to bring a little sanity to these negotiations.

If you want to look at the bright side--I am happy that Fields and Mosgov will be staying. I thought for sure that they were done 4. The trade to me is gallo for Carmelo. We were going to lose Chandler and while he doesnt run the style of play--Billuops is more of a big time player in clutch spots than felton. the bottom line is they are both signed for 2 years. randolph=0 to the Knicks and well ahev to pay a pick in 2014--but hopefully it will be 20 or so--something we could buy.

the fact that we are keeping fields is big. Lets just do this deal--this deal I can live with. Lets hope we can turn our attention to a secondary deal where we can get a Dalembart or somebody like that--maybe Jefferies if he is bought out. We need quality depth upfront not named shelden williams. if we get an exemption--move it to Sacramento get landry at a minimum--reading today they need the $$

You and I both know that this is a situation we seemed to have under some kind of control, and now we are giving up assets we did not expect to lose and getting played by Melo, Denver, and even, to some extent, the Nyets.

The bottom line is that this team wins if it picks up Melo as a FA, and that the trade as constituted puts us in a situation where not only do we give away too much, but we may have some major cap issues if the CBA takes a certain turn, and now we discover that we are even losing our 2014 #1, instead of one we got for Randolph.

Sorry...we are getting played.

Palladin--If we gave up Fields Id be down with that. I thought he was gone. The difference in doing this deal now is Gallo--certainly an EXPENSIVE piece but in the world of give and get--the need to go back to their fan base with hope. What we are buying is a chance to be a player this year-- AND we get the FULL MLE next year with a pick to use. Heck maybe we get Chandler back LOL but more likely a dalembart--something like that. Keeping fields and mosgov is a big help--I truly thought all 5 pieces were toast. the give is Gallo and picks for a chance to try and win now. Its not the worst thing in the world.

I am pretty sure the MLE is not going to be a part of the new cba.

For me a big issue, besides wanting to wait for FA (and thinking that Melo wanted to win a title more than make extra $$)and not lose certain players (something that, sadly, is not going my way) is the fact that we may be boxed into a situation where we cannot improve because of CBA restrictions, a smaller cap, franchise tags, etc.. As I said in another post- Melo fears a new CBA which diminishes his chance to earn about $21M/yr., yet the Knicks walk blindly ahead not understanding that we may be hamstrung by a new CBA, and trapped in a situation where we never have chance to compete against Miami, which, let's face it, is the team we will have to get by in the future.

Some of you guys seem fooled in believing that Anthony is on the same level as Wade and James- he is not and never will be. He is closer to a Glenn Robinson than he is to James or Wade.

He is as good a midrange scorer as here is in the league, but let's face it- we already have one of the best in Amare, and Melo is not the type to make the rest of his teammates better. He is a great isolation player, but pretty average in every other category, and hardly an inspiration on D.

Wade and James play tenacious D, Amare and Melo sporadic D, at best, and the Miami pair can not only pass many times better, but they are even or close in rebounds.

We really are headed for a consistent second tier, 50-55 W/yr. status, and it would seem that there is nothing that can be done about it, especially if we are saddled with paying $40M/yr. for two players with a cap of $55M/yr, limited chances to add players if over the cap, and a franchise tag which makes it easier for a team to resign its own.

Travla wrote:Maybe Billups assist numbers will improve once he gets into Mike D's system but how long will that take?

I'm shocked at how many people are oblivious to the fact Denver scores more, and more efficiently than the Knicks, as nearly an identical pace.

And yes, Billups assists total are lower than Felton, but Denver as a team averages an identical number of assists per game, which means Denver point guards are doing their job.

I'll say it again, Denver averages and identical number of assists than the Knicks.

This fact somewhat flies in the face of the assumption that Denver has a inferior point guard and a black hole playing the 3.

Paladin55 wrote:For me a big issue, besides wanting to wait for FA (and thinking that Melo wanted to win a title more than make extra $$)and not lose certain players (something that, sadly, is not going my way) is the fact that we may be boxed into a situation where we cannot improve because of CBA restrictions, a smaller cap, franchise tags, etc.. As I said in another post- Melo fears a new CBA which diminishes his chance to earn about $21M/yr., yet the Knicks walk blindly ahead not understanding that we may be hamstrung by a new CBA, and trapped in a situation where we never have chance to compete against Miami, which, let's face it, is the team we will have to get by in the future.

But you acknowledged a danger to the Knicks that getting 'Melo now highlights. Franchise tags. Not to mention possible loss of exceptions. Even a lower cap.

ALL these things means you might have to be prepared to go to war with the Knicks roster that finishes this year for several seasons to come.

Some of you guys seem fooled in believing that Anthony is on the same level as Wade and James- he is not and never will be. He is closer to a Glenn Robinson than he is to James or Wade.

Strawman.

Not one is arguing he is on their level.

The only relevant point is he above Gallinari and Chander's level and does he make the Knicks better.

Melo is not the type to make the rest of his teammates better.

He makes his team better.

We really are headed for a consistent second tier, 50-55 W/yr. status, and it would seem that there is nothing that can be done about it, especially if we are saddled with paying $40M/yr. for two players with a cap of $55M/yr, limited chances to add players if over the cap, and a franchise tag which makes it easier for a team to resign its own.

So if the Knicks don't make this deal, and Gallinari and Chandler are making $20+ plus combined by the start of the 2012 season, are the Knicks better than the second tier 50-55 W/yr. status you describe above.

And if not, how are they getting better?

Knickoftime wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:For me a big issue, besides wanting to wait for FA (and thinking that Melo wanted to win a title more than make extra $$)and not lose certain players (something that, sadly, is not going my way) is the fact that we may be boxed into a situation where we cannot improve because of CBA restrictions, a smaller cap, franchise tags, etc.. As I said in another post- Melo fears a new CBA which diminishes his chance to earn about $21M/yr., yet the Knicks walk blindly ahead not understanding that we may be hamstrung by a new CBA, and trapped in a situation where we never have chance to compete against Miami, which, let's face it, is the team we will have to get by in the future.

But you acknowledged a danger to the Knicks that getting 'Melo now highlights. Franchise tags. Not to mention possible loss of exceptions. Even a lower cap.

ALL these things means you might have to be prepared to go to war with the Knicks roster that finishes this year for several seasons to come.

Some of you guys seem fooled in believing that Anthony is on the same level as Wade and James- he is not and never will be. He is closer to a Glenn Robinson than he is to James or Wade.

Strawman.

Not one is arguing he is on their level.

The only relevant point is he above Gallinari and Chander's level and does he make the Knicks better.

Melo is not the type to make the rest of his teammates better.

He makes his team better.

We really are headed for a consistent second tier, 50-55 W/yr. status, and it would seem that there is nothing that can be done about it, especially if we are saddled with paying $40M/yr. for two players with a cap of $55M/yr, limited chances to add players if over the cap, and a franchise tag which makes it easier for a team to resign its own.

So if the Knicks don't make this deal, and Gallinari and Chandler are making $20+ plus combined by the start of the 2012 season, are the Knicks better than the second tier 50-55 W/yr. status you describe above.

And if not, how are they getting better?

For one, you extend Felton immediately at a decent rate. Perhaps $10M.

And then when Deron or CP3 want out, you have good value in trading combo of Felton/Gallo for either of those guys. And you have kept Chandler/AR and anything else that would be included in this particular trade.

martin wrote:[For one, you extend Felton immediately at a decent rate. Perhaps $10M.

And then when Deron or CP3 want out, you have good value in trading combo of Felton/Gallo for either of those guys. And you have kept Chandler/AR and anything else that would be included in this particular trade.

WORD!

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:For one, you extend Felton immediately at a decent rate. Perhaps $10M.

Again, no net gain here. You're just the 2010-11 Knicks 2 years later.

And then when Deron or CP3 want out, you have good value in trading combo of Felton/Gallo for either of those guys. And you have kept Chandler/AR and anything else that would be included in this particular trade.

Well, understand you're now responding to what was a response to someone who was saying they don't want to lock into 'Melo because there might be franchise tags in the future.

But that said, as I've detailed elsewhere, if either Utah or New Orleans (or both) are forced to trade their PG's, both go into rebuild mode. New Orleans is Cleveland without Paul and Utah isn't that much better without Williams.

Felton would be an expiring and of little use to a rebuilding team (he's a nice player, but he's not someone you give multi-years to DURING a rebuild.

If forced to deal (particularly in NO's case) priority #1 is attaching a contract to the deal, like Okafor for example, in which case Billups bigger contract has more value.

I don't think your assumption that Utah and NO would go into full rebuild mode ASAP if their PGs pushed for a trade holds as true as you would like to believe it would. For one, not one word of that type of maneuver has ever been talked about with either team (perhaps it is still too early). And secondly, the one position that you WOULD want to keep on if rebuild is indeed in your future is a player like Felton: a PG who runs a team and sets an example for younger guys. With a rebuild, you can't be in a position to not have any vets on your own team.

NO is a team that is trying to find a home and a new buyer. To keep value up you do indeed need to either keep a star like CP3 and/or perhaps shed as much bad contracts as you could. Right now they have West, OK4, CP3. Sliding in Felton would keep ticket buyers for perhaps another year for a sale to go over with a contract that is still at good value. Ok4 is indeed a bad contract, but one that potential deep playoff teams would assume with only 1-2 years remaining.

Knickoftime wrote:

colorfl1 wrote:WORD!

Just so we're clear, you want to bypass 'Melo, because you think it gives you a better chance at getting Williams and Paul, the latter of who publicly stated he wanted to play with Stoudemire and (wait for it) 'Melo, despite no certainty either would agree to sign, trade-and-extend, or the the CBA would allow such transactions?

You're giving up Anthony of the IDEA that maybe you can get one of them?

Exactly. Wash, rinse and repeat. When does it end?

martin wrote:I don't think your assumption that Utah and NO would go into full rebuild mode ASAP if their PGs pushed for a trade holds as true as you would like to believe it would. For one, not one word of that type of maneuver has ever been talked about with either team (perhaps it is still too early).

I'm pretty certain whomever own New Orleans a year from now will have learned Cleveland's lesson. Paul is propping up that team. They are a TERRIBLE team without him and I'm sorry, but Felton doesn't even come close.

And secondly, the one position that you WOULD want to keep on if rebuild is indeed in your future is a player like Felton: a PG who runs a team and sets an example for younger guys. With a rebuild, you can't be in a position to not have any vets on your own team.

i think Felton is a nice player who had a REALLY good November and some of December, but he's been AWFUL from the field since mid-December.

Not just struggling, he's been terrible.

Don't get me wrong, I like him and will acknowledge wear and tear is a factor, but he's not the player he's being made out to me by some people.

NO is a team that is trying to find a home and a new buyer. To keep value up you do indeed need to either keep a star like CP3 and/or perhaps shed as much bad contracts as you could. Right now they have West, OK4, CP3. Sliding in Felton would keep ticket buyers for perhaps another year for a sale to go over with a contract that is still at good value. Ok4 is indeed a bad contract, but one that potential deep playoff teams would assume with only 1-2 years remaining.

Okafor/West/Felton is a lottery team.

That's how good Chris Paul is (shakey knees and all).

Knickoftime wrote:

colorfl1 wrote:no, I think you are looking at things a bit twisted here. I prefer to take my chances on Melo as a FA, keep and develop most of our assets until they are worth more down the road. Eventually, we will attract good talent one way or another, essentially, I prefer not to give so many assets for a one dimensional player that we may get anyway in free agency.

Humor me. Respond to this perfectly fair question genuinely.

Leon Rose and CAA call the Knicks Thursday morning. Knicks are informed that Carmelo Anthony WILL extend with the Nets or sign his Denver extension of the KNicks don't deal for him.

IF that is the circumstance, do you do the deal as presently outlined?

Simple yes or no would be appreciated.

for me: NO. you call their bluff, cause that's what it is. he could have already signed with Denver and avoided heartache galore. He could have also been a Nets guy right now too.

And then if/when he does go, you know he is not really a team player and nor are his agents people you want to work with. You move on.

Melo is in the spot of directing himself at the Knicks while also making sure that the Knicks have assets left to work with later. And he is not doing it.

martin wrote:Melo is in the spot of directing himself at the Knicks while also making sure that the Knicks have assets left to work with later.

No, he is NOT.

He CANNOT give the Knicks ALL the leverage. Knicks HAVE to be prompted to give enough value back to Denver to get them to do a deal.