holfresh wrote:

FeltonandAmare wrote:

holfresh wrote:

FeltonandAmare wrote:

holfresh wrote:

FeltonandAmare wrote:

holfresh wrote:

FeltonandAmare wrote:

colorfl1 wrote:FeltonandAmare wrote:

He is definitely worth acquiring for the price of Chandler and Gallo.

Yes he is worth Gallo and Chandler.

However, he is not worth losing Felton, Randolph, Curry's expiring deal and those two.

That is giving up too many tradable assets for a guy most believe will end up in NY regardless because of his interest in building his brand on a world stage and the interests of his wife's career.

Chauncey is better than Felton, especially since Felton is only a 2 year solution. Curry is a total waste of human skin. The first round pick is an asset but is still an unknown. In terms of right now, which is what I meant, it's really just Chandler and Gallo which is not a steep price for a player like Melo. The addition of Curry and the first round pick does NOT kill our future.

Also, let me reiterate my position, Melo is NOT coming to the Knicks other than via a trade. He's not going to risk losing up to $40M guaranteed. I know a lot of posters want him to take a discount like the cancer in Miami did, but he only took a small discount not a potential $40M risk. None of us would do it so why do we feel Melo should? Let's get real.

Today, right now, Chauncey is not better, two/three years ago yes, but today no...Chauncey is a better shooter that's it, Felton is better in all other aspect plus a 7 mil savings on salary which is the most important aspect of this deal...

I've seen Chauncey play live for a while now and if you look at their stats this year Chauncey' stats are superior. In my opinion he's an upgrade for this year and next. The 7 mil means nothing since he will be released just like Felton would have been released so both salaries revert to zero in 2 years.

His stats aren't superior if you are refering to a 0.5 better scoring average...Felton is a better defender and pushes the ball more...The Knicks won't be able to afford a max point guard in two years if Melo comes here...Felton does what Billups does at half the price... Where are the Knicks going for a PG in 1.5 years??...U guys really want a 35 year old at PG ruinning with 27 year olds?? really???

Well I guess we disagree on this point. I can only tell you from seeing both play that in my opinion Billups is the better choice as a 2 year plan.

What's stats are you refering to?..Also do you think Billups is a better pick and roll guy given you have to be a penatrating threat, as well as a shooting threat? Is Billups a better defender...Has Billup slowed down this last year or so?, I think so?...Who can the Knicks possibly sign with no cap room in 2012?..At least Felton may be affordable and will still be in his prime?? any thoughts?...

There are so many reasons that Billup is an upgrade that I’ll probably miss one or two. Anyway, here are a few:

(1) Proven winner called Big Shot for a reason.
(2) Can dominate without having to push the ball up quickly and is able to control the tempo in a manner that Felton just can’t.
(3) Superior basketball IQ, great passer and court vision.
(4) Great size for a PG and tough as nails.
(5) Post up ability which Felton lacks.
(6) His style of play and cagey vet status allows him to be extremely effective for the rest of this year and next.
(7) His minutes are slightly down but he’s still very productive, basically the same rate as in the past. He knows how to pace himself.
(8) He can be an excellent teacher for Douglas just like he has been for Lawson. He has been given credit for Lawson’s development by the Denver coaching staff.
(9) He has played well with Melo and will make Melo’s transition to the Knicks a much easier one.

The plan is to clear up space in 2012. WHEN we get Melo and Amare stays healthy, then our team will become attractive enough to get one of the two major pgs that year.

If we are thinking about making noise in the playoffs, teams will be more scared of Billups than Felton.

In conclusion, Billups gives us a better chance of winning this year and next and does not compromise our ability to attract a great PG in 2012.

Note: His stats have been discussed in other threads. While stats can be deceiving my eyes tell me I'd rather have Billups than Felton.

His stats are in other threads??...Good one, I'll take that as meaning his stats are not better...You are talking about a player of 3/4 years ago...I'm looking at three years from now...Knicks ain't winning it this or next year...But we will agee to disagree...If Billups is so good and Denver isn't wiining it in two years, why don't they just let his contract roll off while he teaches the pups..Why would they want Felton???

I guess you're too lazy to look it up yourself. Here is the comparison.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=billuch01&y1=2011&p2=feltora01&y2=201

colorfl1 wrote:Gallo will be a steady all star by the time he is 26-27.

And Stoudemire will be in the last year of his contract.

Knickoftime wrote:

colorfl1 wrote:Billups expiring contract would become an asset. But is it worth risking Billups breaking down in D'Antoni's system in his last year? Do we not want to compete with upper echelon teams?

Denver plays at an identical pace as the Knicks (have been since Billups got there), and actually scores more than the Knicks do. How are supposedly interested, knowledgeable parties ignorant of this fact?

If anything, Billups age and the addition of a new #1 scoring option in 'Melo (Knicks PG gets bumped down from #2 to #3 option) may force D'Antoni NOT to lean on his starting PG so much, which might actually turn out to be a good thing.

I'll say it once again. Playing at a nearly identical place, for a higher scoring team (which he's been doing for 2 and 1/2 years now), Billups has been outplaying Felton for quite some time now.

I have to marvel at Walsh and his ability to pick up players who then play better than they did before. Not everyone, but Felton sure has exceeded anybody's and everybody's expectations. Buy low, sell high. It is a good trade to do even though we are giving up a lot more than we all originally thought. If we can now get a good defensive center, we can compete for the east title this year.

martin wrote:The one assumption that you are forgetting to consider is a S&T scenario. Felton has value in this type of transaction where Billups does not in 2 year (or at the end of next trading season).

If Utah or NO knows their PGs are going to jet, would they prefer to get Felton or Billups in return if it's PG-for-PG swap? That's where Felton has much more additional value.

Look at New Orleans and Utah's rosters. If either Williams or Paul leaves, NEITHER is a play-off team. I can't imagine either one wanting to plug Felton in on a new contract. They'll be rebuilding.

Also consider given they have Lawson, it's questionable whether Denver signs Felton past his current deal. Which means Felton will be on the market if New Orleans or Utah so desired his services.

New Orleans is Cleveland without Paul. They lose him, their main priority will be to jettison Okafor.

Utah is in a downward trajectory, and I highly doubt the want to sign Felton to a multi-year deal when Jefferson and Milsap might be out the door the next, which will be their only assets at that point.

Sorry, Billups larger contract, combined with Turiaf's, gives the Knicks more options in terms of assuming additional other contracts.

martin wrote:On one hand Denver would like to exchange Felton for Billups knowing that Billups is better (which you have argued in other threads), and then just a year later they would jettison Felton once his deal ends ("Also consider given they have Lawson, it's questionable whether Denver signs Felton past his current deal.")? What kind of sense does that make?

The reason they want Felton for Billups in the salary cap savings.

Denver knows they are giving up the ghost in terms of making a real play-off run (Felton, Gallo, Chandler may get them to hold on to a spot, but they aren't making any noise), and with Martin and Smith gone and a decision to be made by Nene (which may be out of their hands), Denver is preparing to rebuild.

The also save themselves the indignity of having to decline Billups option.

Even considering the $4m more they would pay Felton vs. declining Billups option, they MORE than make that back in the luxury tax saving they get back THIS year.

I suspect you'll see Denver put Felton on the market in the off-season. A team losing Melo, Billups, Smith, Martin and possibly Nene and who has Lawson isn't signing Felton long-term.

On one hand Utah or NO would not want to sign Felton past his current deal ("I highly doubt the want to sign Felton to a multi-year deal when Jefferson and Milsap might be out the door the next"), but on the other hand you state that Felton will be on the market if Felton is so desired by those teams ("Which means Felton will be on the market if New Orleans or Utah so desired his services.").

You can't have it both ways.

I can. It's called a conditional argument. I'm DIDN'T say they wouldn't want him but might sign him anyway. I'm accepting your premise for argument and responding to YOUR internal logic

I don't believe either team would value Felton at that stage, but IF they did (as YOU are arguing), he'd likely be available to them on the open market, after they took back Billups expiring in order to help rid themselves of another, undesirable contract.

Under the conditions YOU suggest, they could have their cake and eat it too.

Perfectly logical and consistent if you understand it properly.

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:On one hand Denver would like to exchange Felton for Billups knowing that Billups is better (which you have argued in other threads), and then just a year later they would jettison Felton once his deal ends ("Also consider given they have Lawson, it's questionable whether Denver signs Felton past his current deal.")? What kind of sense does that make?

The reason they want Felton for Billups in the salary cap savings.

Denver knows they are giving up the ghost in terms of making a real play-off run (Felton, Gallo, Chandler may get them to hold on to a spot, but they aren't making any noise), and with Martin and Smith gone and a decision to be made by Nene (which may be out of their hands), Denver is preparing to rebuild.

The also save themselves the indignity of having to decline Billups option.

Even considering the $4m more they would pay Felton vs. declining Billups option, they MORE than make that back in the luxury tax saving they get back THIS year.

I suspect you'll see Denver put Felton on the market in the off-season. A team losing Melo, Billups, Smith, Martin and possibly Nene and who has Lawson isn't signing Felton long-term.

On one hand Utah or NO would not want to sign Felton past his current deal ("I highly doubt the want to sign Felton to a multi-year deal when Jefferson and Milsap might be out the door the next"), but on the other hand you state that Felton will be on the market if Felton is so desired by those teams ("Which means Felton will be on the market if New Orleans or Utah so desired his services.").

You can't have it both ways.

I can. It's called a conditional argument. I'm DIDN'T say they wouldn't want him but might sign him anyway. I'm accepting your premise for argument and responding to YOUR internal logic

I don't believe either team would value Felton at that stage, but IF they did (as YOU are arguing), he'd likely be available to them on the open market, after they took back Billups expiring in order to help rid themselves of another, undesirable contract.

Under the conditions YOU suggest, they could have their cake and eat it too.

Perfectly logical and consistent if you understand it properly.

Logical if you break it up but not consistent.

Den def wants Felton for cost savings, agree on that point. But no way they let value walk for nothing, no how no way. And in that case, Felton won't be on market for free; only a GM/owner as stupid as Jordan makes that kind of move. But that could be an assumption too I guess.

martin wrote:100% AGREED. And this is the point Donnie and Dolan have to beat into Denver's head and not include one of Gallo/Chandler.

Not going to happen.

Why?

Because there are still 2 OTHER deal out there that the Nuggets prefer.

One is the Nets deal.

Two is to hold onto Melo and Billups.

colorfl1 wrote:"The Knicks are confident Anthony will join them during free agency if he does not sign a contract extension." - NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/sports/basketball/21nba.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

So am I. Utterly.

I just have little confidence that he won't sign a contract extension.