TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

MSG3 wrote:AR isn't playing because he's getting traded no matter what. They want to protect him as much as possible.

i don't buy that... we're playing everyone else that's currently involved in trade rumors... AR doesn't play because MDA doesn't think he can contribute to a W that's fine, but what gets me is when we see guys like Mozgov on the floor looking like a trainwreck for most of the game & yet AR can't see the light of day off the bench even when both our bigs get into foul trouble & our star bigman isn't available... playing Shawne Williams at the 5 is ridiculous.

I don't understand why you want to describe Timo's play as looking like a train wreck. The kid has been effective as far as i'm concerned. No he's not perfect and he's got a long way to go in his development, but he's been effective in covering the C spot for good stretches of the game. He's giving us what we need on the most basic level and he should get better and better.

Why AR isn't getting any real shot is hard to know. I do think that it comes down to trust. The coach just doesn't trust AR and at this point in the season, he's gonna go with guys he trusts. Alan Hahn only just recently mentioned AR looking more into it in practice and that may be too little, too late! Perhaps if he busted it like Timo all year, he wouldn't be in this position. IF the other coaches felt that AR was showing so much in practice and workouts that he deserved to be in the rotation, i'm positive that they'd make a case for him to Mike. We heard those positive reports about Timo.

not sure what game u watched last night but Mozgov looked real bad... he was fumbling almost every ball passed to him in the paint, missed a few dunks at point blank range, constantly got faked into silly fouls, missed a ton of defensive assignment rotations, failed to box out for rebounds & looked like he had no idea where he should be on the floor.

That wasn't an easy matchup last night. The Nets have legit size and ability inside. Lopez and Favors is a tough tandem to deal with. Like I said him making mistakes or not looking fully developed isn't the issue. He played good man D on Lopez and made him work. Yes he committed dumb fouls again, but for the 20 minutes he played he wasn't bad.

With regard to AR vs. Timo, i'll say this, Timo has an actual position and he has shown that he can make a jumper, draw fouls and convert at the FT line. He catches most good passes and except for not using more deception when going up for dunks, he's doing most of the right things when he's in there. You can't say that AR would look the same in the same role, cuz he's not really a C and he's not a PF either. He isn't nearly as good a jump shooter and I don't think he's as good setting picks and rolling. He couldn't guard Lopez the way Timo did. I think AR can rebound and block some shots, but I don't know what he'd be useful for on offense.

good man D on Lopez??? dude he wasn't even on the floor for 3/4s of the game because of foul trouble... it was Turiaf or Shawne Williams guarding Lopez for much of the game... he was also totally out of synch with Felton i saw him try & throw him a few alley oop passes & Mozgov didn't even attempt to go for them thinking they were shot attempts instead... they weren't the greatest passes from Felton either i will give him that but Mozgov just looked lost out there last night... & i don't get what you expect "most good passes" to be, i saw Wilson throw him a nice bounce pass right into Mozgov's gut & he fumbled that too & ended up turning the ball over... does the pass need to be right in his hands while he's on the way towards the basket with a wide open lane to be considered a good pass? IMO Mozgov has bad hands, he is playing too fast for his own ability he's looking to dunk the ball before he even has it in his hands, that's not good... he needs to correct this it's a serious issue... u see NFL WR's do that all the time when they drop balls they're looking to make their next move before they even secure the ball in their hands... when Mozgov is trying to catch the ball in traffic that's what he does all the time... he needs to calm down & stop spazzing out.

You're making this too much about this one game. Overall I can see why Mike is using Timo vs. AR. He's gonna need time to get fully comfortable, but I can see at least the makings of a useful C from Timo. Tell me what position in this offense is AR really ready to play? AR is much more of a project than Timo. He's got more raw talent than Timo, but in a practical sense most of it goes wasted cuz he hasn't learned how to use it within a team concept. He's all potential and no actual game right now.

i get the reasoning about trying to develop a legitimate bigger C but when i watch Mozgov play other than that 1 game where he beasted i'm still seeing him play out of control & he seems over his head against even backup level C's... as for what position i see AR playing, he could easily play backup C or PF in this offense... MDA used stringbean Steven Hunter for 76 games 14 mpg during their 62 win season in Phoenix you telling me AR isn't a better option than a bench role player like that?

Perhaps if we had Nash AR could be more successful, but with the team we have right now, I don't see anyone looking for AR or working a 2 man game with him or anything to make things easier for him. If you get on the floor with this Knicks team you'd better have some basic role to play, cuz there's no one who will set you up for easy scores on this team. AR needs help to be successful, otherwise he's gonna get the ball out on the perimeter with no advantage against the defense. He can't dribble drive thru the D or just pull up for a jumper. He doesn't have the ISO skills to be that kind of player. He's got to play more like Tyson Chandler. Make use of his size and athletic ability. Alleyoops and dump offs under the basket.

Instead on this team he's more likely to be out there with TD and no shot to be involved in the offense in any way.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

MSG3 wrote:AR isn't playing because he's getting traded no matter what. They want to protect him as much as possible.

i don't buy that... we're playing everyone else that's currently involved in trade rumors... AR doesn't play because MDA doesn't think he can contribute to a W that's fine, but what gets me is when we see guys like Mozgov on the floor looking like a trainwreck for most of the game & yet AR can't see the light of day off the bench even when both our bigs get into foul trouble & our star bigman isn't available... playing Shawne Williams at the 5 is ridiculous.

I don't understand why you want to describe Timo's play as looking like a train wreck. The kid has been effective as far as i'm concerned. No he's not perfect and he's got a long way to go in his development, but he's been effective in covering the C spot for good stretches of the game. He's giving us what we need on the most basic level and he should get better and better.

Why AR isn't getting any real shot is hard to know. I do think that it comes down to trust. The coach just doesn't trust AR and at this point in the season, he's gonna go with guys he trusts. Alan Hahn only just recently mentioned AR looking more into it in practice and that may be too little, too late! Perhaps if he busted it like Timo all year, he wouldn't be in this position. IF the other coaches felt that AR was showing so much in practice and workouts that he deserved to be in the rotation, i'm positive that they'd make a case for him to Mike. We heard those positive reports about Timo.

not sure what game u watched last night but Mozgov looked real bad... he was fumbling almost every ball passed to him in the paint, missed a few dunks at point blank range, constantly got faked into silly fouls, missed a ton of defensive assignment rotations, failed to box out for rebounds & looked like he had no idea where he should be on the floor.

That wasn't an easy matchup last night. The Nets have legit size and ability inside. Lopez and Favors is a tough tandem to deal with. Like I said him making mistakes or not looking fully developed isn't the issue. He played good man D on Lopez and made him work. Yes he committed dumb fouls again, but for the 20 minutes he played he wasn't bad.

With regard to AR vs. Timo, i'll say this, Timo has an actual position and he has shown that he can make a jumper, draw fouls and convert at the FT line. He catches most good passes and except for not using more deception when going up for dunks, he's doing most of the right things when he's in there. You can't say that AR would look the same in the same role, cuz he's not really a C and he's not a PF either. He isn't nearly as good a jump shooter and I don't think he's as good setting picks and rolling. He couldn't guard Lopez the way Timo did. I think AR can rebound and block some shots, but I don't know what he'd be useful for on offense.

good man D on Lopez??? dude he wasn't even on the floor for 3/4s of the game because of foul trouble... it was Turiaf or Shawne Williams guarding Lopez for much of the game... he was also totally out of synch with Felton i saw him try & throw him a few alley oop passes & Mozgov didn't even attempt to go for them thinking they were shot attempts instead... they weren't the greatest passes from Felton either i will give him that but Mozgov just looked lost out there last night... & i don't get what you expect "most good passes" to be, i saw Wilson throw him a nice bounce pass right into Mozgov's gut & he fumbled that too & ended up turning the ball over... does the pass need to be right in his hands while he's on the way towards the basket with a wide open lane to be considered a good pass? IMO Mozgov has bad hands, he is playing too fast for his own ability he's looking to dunk the ball before he even has it in his hands, that's not good... he needs to correct this it's a serious issue... u see NFL WR's do that all the time when they drop balls they're looking to make their next move before they even secure the ball in their hands... when Mozgov is trying to catch the ball in traffic that's what he does all the time... he needs to calm down & stop spazzing out.

You're making this too much about this one game. Overall I can see why Mike is using Timo vs. AR. He's gonna need time to get fully comfortable, but I can see at least the makings of a useful C from Timo. Tell me what position in this offense is AR really ready to play? AR is much more of a project than Timo. He's got more raw talent than Timo, but in a practical sense most of it goes wasted cuz he hasn't learned how to use it within a team concept. He's all potential and no actual game right now.

i get the reasoning about trying to develop a legitimate bigger C but when i watch Mozgov play other than that 1 game where he beasted i'm still seeing him play out of control & he seems over his head against even backup level C's... as for what position i see AR playing, he could easily play backup C or PF in this offense... MDA used stringbean Steven Hunter for 76 games 14 mpg during their 62 win season in Phoenix you telling me AR isn't a better option than a bench role player like that?

Perhaps if we had Nash AR could be more successful, but with the team we have right now, I don't see anyone looking for AR or working a 2 man game with him or anything to make things easier for him. If you get on the floor with this Knicks team you'd better have some basic role to play, cuz there's no one who will set you up for easy scores on this team. AR needs help to be successful, otherwise he's gonna get the ball out on the perimeter with no advantage against the defense. He can't dribble drive thru the D or just pull up for a jumper. He doesn't have the ISO skills to be that kind of player. He's got to play more like Tyson Chandler. Make use of his size and athletic ability. Alleyoops and dump offs under the basket.

Instead on this team he's more likely to be out there with TD and no shot to be involved in the offense in any way.

the only way for AR to develop chemistry like that w/his teammates is to get minutes playing with them... same as Mozgov right now he's struggling to find that chemistry he & Felton are on 2 totally different wavelengths but the more u play him the more they'll get their timing & tendencies down, just like Felton & Amare took a while to form that chemistry... AR is not gonna show u jack getting 2 minutes of play in blow out losses, i'm telling u that right now.

as for AR not having the iso, dribble drive or pull up for a J skills, if u ever watched him play in GS you wouldn't be saying that.

Randolph has shown he has some talent. He has not shown he can contribute to helping a team win. The Knicks acquired AR because they believe or believed eventually he could develop into a player that would help this team. He hasn't shown anything in games to indicate that he's ready to contribute and I haven't heard anything about him practicing well. MDA is going to play the players who he thinks can contribute.

So we have a player whosel
1) Previous coach had problems with him.
2) Shown nothing in his limited time on the floor.
3) From the little we know about practice has not practiced well.

Item 3 is the great unknown. But I see no reason to believe that if AR was practicing well and out playing Moz and or Shawn Williams he wouldn't get playing time.

I really hope the guy develops and if he does I'm sure he'll play. (Then we'll hear how he should have been playing sooner - which I also think is a bogus argument but I'll save that for another day)

OldFan wrote:Randolph has shown he has some talent. He has not shown he can contribute to helping a team win.

that's getting old too... did David Lee show he could contribute to helping a team win when he was a Knick? everyone said Jamal Crawford could never contribute to helping teams win, right now he plays a key role on a very good Atlanta Hawks playoff team... Nate Robinson who couldn't get out of MDA's doghouse even after he lit up the Hawks with 40+ after 16 DNP's because he supposedly was incapable of playing "winning style basketball" is now playing a solid role off the bench for a championship contending Boston Celtics team

you tell me AR has not shown he can contribute to helping a team win & yet you recognize the fact that GS was a terrible team... sometimes a show of faith from a coach can go a long way... we have seen Mozgov have 1 good game in most of the other games he's played this year he's looked clueless, has he shown he can contribute to helping a team win more than AR? but MDA sticks w/him because he recognizes the need for him to see minutes & get acclimated to his teammates & to this system... God forbid Mozgov were to put up all of the statlines AR put up in his time in Golden State people would consider him an untouchable... actually they already do, which to me is pretty ridiculous.

I really hope the guy develops and if he does I'm sure he'll play. (Then we'll hear how he should have been playing sooner - which I also think is a bogus argument but I'll save that for another day)

i'm sure we'll be hearing all about how MDA not playing him contributed to his being ready to play well when he finally gets the opportunity, which I think is a bogus argument but looking forward to hearing the credit being heaped on MDA's shoulders.

TMS wrote:

OldFan wrote:Randolph has shown he has some talent. He has not shown he can contribute to helping a team win.

that's getting old too... did David Lee show he could contribute to helping a team win when he was a Knick? everyone said Jamal Crawford could never contribute to helping teams win, right now he plays a key role on a very good Atlanta Hawks playoff team... Nate Robinson who couldn't get out of MDA's doghouse even after he lit up the Hawks with 40+ after 16 DNP's because he supposedly was incapable of playing "winning style basketball" is now playing a solid role off the bench for a championship contending Boston Celtics team

you tell me AR has not shown he can contribute to helping a team win & yet you recognize the fact that GS was a terrible team... sometimes a show of faith from a coach can go a long way... we have seen Mozgov have 1 good game in most of the other games he's played this year he's looked clueless, has he shown he can contribute to helping a team win more than AR? but MDA sticks w/him because he recognizes the need for him to see minutes & get acclimated to his teammates & to this system... God forbid Mozgov were to put up all of the statlines AR put up in his time in Golden State people would consider him an untouchable... actually they already do, which to me is pretty ridiculous.

I really hope the guy develops and if he does I'm sure he'll play. (Then we'll hear how he should have been playing sooner - which I also think is a bogus argument but I'll save that for another day)

i'm sure we'll be hearing all about how MDA not playing him contributed to his being ready to play well when he finally gets the opportunity, which I think is a bogus argument but looking forward to hearing the credit being heaped on MDA's shoulders.

It's getting old - because he has proved he can help a team win? Because he has impressed a coach? Because he has practiced well?

TMS wrote:"Jamal Crawford can't help teams win" Atlanta Hawks 33W - 20L - reigning NBA 6th man of the year
"Nate Robinson can't help teams win" Boston Celtics 39W - 14L - 18 mpg role player helping them win a ton of games

i love the fact that people are pronouncing final judgements on a 21 yo kid oozing with potential & proven talent because he put up numbers while playing on a sh!tty team in GS & had a problem getting along with Don Nelson... the same Don Nelson that alienated & almost ran his star player Monta Ellis out of town because they couldn't get along... the same Don Nelson that wanted to trade Patrick Ewing & then phased out of his offense while still in his prime & wanted his offense to run through Anthony Mason... the same Don Nelson that places little value on playing defense in favor of high octane offense with volume of shots & possessions... the same Don Nelson that loves loves loves to play small ball vs bigger lineups (hmm, sensing some similarities there with our current head coach)

MDA is known to be a rigid coach... this is no secret... there have been guys that have fallen into his doghouse that have gone on to help other teams play "winning basketball"... AR could easily be the next if he never gets that opportunity in NY

Let's please put this idea to bed. Mike isn't some rigid guy that holds players back. Hill, came in out of shape, played poorly in SL, Training Camp and even had a poor work ethic in practice. Darko, came in out of shape, played poorly and had an admitted horrible attitude the rest of the way. His attitude sucked FIRST and then he didn't play. It wasn't the other way around. Nate, acted like an ass and refused to listen. AR wasn't ready and needed to work hard on his game and show progress in practice. From all reports he's only JUST NOW showing some hustle in practice!!!! PLEASE refute these facts if you can. Don't keep bringing up false unsubstantiated bull. This argument is getting tired and you have NO FREAKING PROOF TO SUPPORT YOUR STANCE!!! GEEEZ!!! ENOUGH ALREADY! WHO GIVES A FLIP ABOUT THESE PLAYERS?

This had to be one of the easiest situations to win a starting job. He had to out play Timo and freaking Turiaf!!!! I mean come on.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:"Jamal Crawford can't help teams win" Atlanta Hawks 33W - 20L - reigning NBA 6th man of the year
"Nate Robinson can't help teams win" Boston Celtics 39W - 14L - 18 mpg role player helping them win a ton of games

i love the fact that people are pronouncing final judgements on a 21 yo kid oozing with potential & proven talent because he put up numbers while playing on a sh!tty team in GS & had a problem getting along with Don Nelson... the same Don Nelson that alienated & almost ran his star player Monta Ellis out of town because they couldn't get along... the same Don Nelson that wanted to trade Patrick Ewing & then phased out of his offense while still in his prime & wanted his offense to run through Anthony Mason... the same Don Nelson that places little value on playing defense in favor of high octane offense with volume of shots & possessions... the same Don Nelson that loves loves loves to play small ball vs bigger lineups (hmm, sensing some similarities there with our current head coach)

MDA is known to be a rigid coach... this is no secret... there have been guys that have fallen into his doghouse that have gone on to help other teams play "winning basketball"... AR could easily be the next if he never gets that opportunity in NY

Any player can be on a good team and contribute. I don't think anyone ever really said that Nate or Jamal couldn't come off the bench on a good to great team and be helpful to that team. There's no reason to exaggerate this point. Role players can always find a way to help on a good to great team.

Let's please put this idea to bed. Mike isn't some rigid guy that holds players back. Hill, came in out of shape, played poorly in SL, Training Camp and even had a poor work ethic in practice. Darko, came in out of shape, played poorly and had an admitted horrible attitude the rest of the way. His attitude sucked FIRST and then he didn't play. It wasn't the other way around. Nate, acted like an ass and refused to listen. AR wasn't ready and needed to work hard on his game and show progress in practice. From all reports he's only JUST NOW showing some hustle in practice!!!! PLEASE refute these facts if you can. Don't keep bringing up false unsubstantiated bull. This argument is getting tired and you have NO FREAKING PROOF TO SUPPORT YOUR STANCE!!! GEEEZ!!! ENOUGH ALREADY! WHO GIVES A FLIP ABOUT THESE PLAYERS?

This had to be one of the easiest situations to win a starting job. He had to out play Timo and freaking Turiaf!!!! I mean come on.

here's all the proof you need to know why AR should be playing... if Mozgov ever put up as many statlines like that people would be so far up MDA's butt giving him credit for his genius coaching of the guy it won't even be funny... people are already losing their minds over Timo after he has 1 good game AR has had a ton of games like that already at the age of 19 & 20

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3455&year=2009
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3455&year=2010

i've explained my stance on this many times & have never flipped out on you i respect your right to voice your opinions regardless of how much i've disagreed with you i would appreciate the same courtesy... no one's taking any stabs at your ancestors or family members here relax.

I'm sorry for getting angry and attacking you. IMO the guy you're looking at in those games in 2009 and 2010 is a mirage. You can't really take those games and extrapolate that he can do that on a regular basis now or in the future. For whatever reason he was able to put up those stats, but it has nothing to do with fitting into a system and performing a role on a high level. This is like expecting guys in an And1 league to be able to go off in the NBA. On THIS TEAM, AR has to fall into a very specific role and it calls on skills and an understanding of the game that he doesn't possess. He may be a Harold Miner type or a Gerald Green.

From what I can gather he was freelancing and he can't do that here. This is why he's looking lost and tentative when he gets out there. It's more than just nerves cuz he hasn't been getting minutes. This kid is like a 1st year QB in the NFL. The game is too fast and he can't read the defense. He may get it one day, but I don't think they want to wait for him to figure it out.

Guys like D'Antoni and his staff have so much experience that they can tell if a guy is gonna get it or not. They have this kid in the gym for hours and hours over months and i'm pretty sure they've been looking for any spark of life from this kid. Something to give them that feeling that he's on the cusp of getting it. If they get that feeling I doubt that DW would trade him. One way or another if AR is traded it's because they don't believe he's gonna get it any time soon.

ItalianStallion wrote:

TMS wrote:

MSG3 wrote:AR isn't playing because he's getting traded no matter what. They want to protect him as much as possible.

i don't buy that... we're playing everyone else that's currently involved in trade rumors... AR doesn't play because MDA doesn't think he can contribute to a W that's fine, but what gets me is when we see guys like Mozgov on the floor looking like a trainwreck for most of the game & yet AR can't see the light of day off the bench even when both our bigs get into foul trouble & our star bigman isn't available... playing Shawne Williams at the 5 is ridiculous.

Exactly. That's what makes the whole thing so ridiculous.

We tolerated several weeks of Mozgov literally being the worst starting C I ever have seen in over 40 years of watching NBA basketball while we were getting off to a 3-8 start and AR is the one that got buried on the bench even though he's clear cut the best rebounder/shot blocker on the team per minute played (for the Knicks and for GS) and we desperately need rebounding and an inside presence?

You simply cannot judge his ability on offense off a few minutes here or there in garbage time and being used incorrectly by D'Antoni. The sum total of his minutes is less just a few games.

Our coach is either an idiot savant that doesn't understand the relative value and importance of anything other than outside shooting or it's personal thing. This coach has a history of "not liking" certain players (Marbury, Robinson, Hughes in NY and for the Suns also). In most cases I understood the problem even when I didn't always agree with the handling, but I have yet to read anything about Randolph complaining or misbehaving etc.. He's certainly not misbehaving when he plays because he almost never gets any minutes except in garbage time.

He could probably be more emotional and energetic on the bench and court, but not everyone is Turiaf. AR has a more laid back personality. As long as he's getting rebounds, blocking shots etc... there are times when he should be on the court.

Quite frankly, I have seen enough of this coach, the way he handles players and lineups, and his philosophy to know that I'd rather trade him.

This has been covered before, but to reiterate, AR had a few issues to start the year. I know it's been a while, but let's revisit the start of the year for AR:

TORONTO -- Anthony Randolph was walking with the aid of crutches Wednesday morning as the New York Knicks held their shootaround prior to their season opener against the Raptors, and said the ankle he sprained Tuesday should only keep him sidelined for a week at most.

A. Randolph
However, a statement issued later in the day by the team said Randolph was re-evaluated in the afternoon and is expected to miss about two weeks.

Randolph's injury, sustained when he landed on a teammate's foot at practice, had the potential to exacerbate one of the Knicks' biggest weaknesses from the preseason -- their propensity to get outrebounded. Their opponents grabbed an average of 12.1 more rebounds per game in eight preseason games.

Randolph sprained his left ankle Tuesday on the eve of the season opener and the Knicks announced he would miss two weeks, but Randolph has proven to be a speedy healer. The Knicks don’t practice today. Randolph missed the first three games but hopes to suit up Tuesday vs. the Magic.

He has watched from the bench and sees a chance to break in the rotation.

“I feel I can help the team, give them another big man on the bench to give them energy,” Randolph said. “It’s hard to watch. If it was up to me, I’d already have been out there in Boston.”

Alan Hahn has this to say about AR on Dec. 23rd :

I thought Andy Rautins played with confidence in the scrimmage on Tuesday. He moves the ball well and obviously has the ability to shoot it. I wish the Knicks would let him play in the D-League but they have their beliefs on that and think he's better served working out with the team and watching film, etc. Shawne Williams will play more and should. He's very smart, plays very cool. He's 6-9, but a huge wingspan (7-2). Good shooter. I wanted to see more out of Anthony Randolph, but I can't say I see a huge difference in him now than when I saw him in training camp.

My problem with the supporters of AR is that we really don't know if he's gonna be the real deal or another Harold Miner or Gerald Green. Loads of raw talent without knowing how to actually use it within an NBA system. Those guys would kill in a streetball style of game, but in the NBA it's more structured and you have to know how to apply that talent to the role you play on that team. Some guys just can't really do that. They're great when things are loose and scrambled, like garbage time or on bad teams, but in a really structured team oriented system they can't do their thing.