BRIGGS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

TMS wrote:let's nuke em

No way they don't have oil money and Haliburton has no use for mummies and pyramids. Otherwise we would have declared them islamic terrorists about 5 years ago.

The US cares about the price/availability of oil--it's a predominant factor in foreign policy. It has the ability to shake our economy(higher oil prices) at a time we dont need a tremor. People might say well this is just in Egypt--nope--it's a chain reaction that effects all.

bah, who cares about oil... i thought nuking them & blowing them back to the stone ages was your solution to cure all the world's problems? whats 1 less country on the world map.

Nalod wrote:

The peace hating fundamentalists killed Anwar Sadat who might have led egypt to greatness. After failed wars they got back the lands they lost and with peace could divert funds from military into the infrastructure.

We back the dictators as it is not the best choice but perhaps one that keeps "things going". Middle east has so many problems. U.S. Support and Hating on us and Israel is not the solution. The Fundamentalist vacuum gives false hope and further impoverishes while stripping human rights and increases illiteracy. Taliban does a great job of taking a bad situation and making it worse.

good posr, especially on the part about sadat...

BRIGGS wrote:
These hundreds of thousands of people who are risking their lives to demonstrate for the removal of Mubarak--do you think they are going to stand down?
If anything this could get much worse, even ugly. I don't see where this ends. What happens if they are able to shut down the Suez Canal? That's where I would attack if I was the oppression. If they want worldwide attention--they will get it.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4020767,00.html

Israel’s Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is quoted by the Jerusalem Post as saying, “The region in which we live is unstable. We see this at several points throughout the Middle East. I would say that there is a great island of instability in the geographic expanse in which we live. We hope that there will be quiet and security.”

There were riots in Algeria, and a man burned himself to death in an apparent echo of a suicide that began the Tunisian protests, according to Guardian.

The NY Times quotes leftist Beirut journalist Alfadel Chalak as follows:

“What we are witnessing is the collapse of the Arab state. Wherever we look across the Arab world, we see wars. We see civil wars, wars among ethnicities, wars between sects and ethnicities, wars among sects, and wars among authorities, sects, ethnicities and the poor. Wars among an Arab world that doesn’t have an elite or leadership that draws strategies and tactics that lead to salvation. Therefore, it looks as if we are going to witness for years and maybe decades to come a great deal of devastation, destruction and killing.”

Maybe things just have to happen. The ME, Africa, and Asia are problem areas because of Western Imperialism, or the Cold War. Certain "superior" nations have contributed to this strife and never gave the people in these regions a chance to sort things out on their own.

There probably will be bloodshed... but so be it.

Look at our Civil War, and imagine what the rest of the world must have been thinking about that bloody conflict. How would we have felt if the nations of Europe had sent a force over here to stop the conflict?

The U.S. has propped up corrupt regimes for the last 120 years, and been involved in toppling legit governments, and we've also had our own moments of imperialistic fervor.

Time to stand on the side of democracy even if it hurts us economically. In the long run it will increase our prestige in the eyes of the world and help us in the future.

Nalod wrote:Democracy? Think it could work in Egypt?

We (the U.S., Europe) may not get the government they want in Egypt, but if the process is legit and open, I don't see why it can't work in principle. No guarantees, though.

Backing dictators who are supposedly our "allies" does not work in the end, and has come back to haunt us. At what point does our government admit this and change its way of thinking?

orangeblobman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

The peace hating fundamentalists killed Anwar Sadat who might have led egypt to greatness. After failed wars they got back the lands they lost and with peace could divert funds from military into the infrastructure.

We back the dictators as it is not the best choice but perhaps one that keeps "things going". Middle east has so many problems. U.S. Support and Hating on us and Israel is not the solution. The Fundamentalist vacuum gives false hope and further impoverishes while stripping human rights and increases illiteracy. Taliban does a great job of taking a bad situation and making it worse.

Israel should have not given those lands back. It's like giving them a 'do-over'. It's this type of babying that enables these bum dictators to continue their ways unabated.

It's scary and unnerving to think what Israel must go through everyday in their part of the world, it's like having the worst neighbors in the world.

Papabear Says

Let's pray that everything is worked out and they have a democratic government the respects all religions and all people.We don't want this to turn into another Iran because Israel will be in deeper stuff. It will be just a matter of time before middle east countries will have nuckes and we know Israel already have them. They will wipe each other off the map. There is nothing we can do because this hate have been going on for thousands of years. Let's just pray for peace.

Papabear wrote:

orangeblobman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

The peace hating fundamentalists killed Anwar Sadat who might have led egypt to greatness. After failed wars they got back the lands they lost and with peace could divert funds from military into the infrastructure.

We back the dictators as it is not the best choice but perhaps one that keeps "things going". Middle east has so many problems. U.S. Support and Hating on us and Israel is not the solution. The Fundamentalist vacuum gives false hope and further impoverishes while stripping human rights and increases illiteracy. Taliban does a great job of taking a bad situation and making it worse.

Israel should have not given those lands back. It's like giving them a 'do-over'. It's this type of babying that enables these bum dictators to continue their ways unabated.

It's scary and unnerving to think what Israel must go through everyday in their part of the world, it's like having the worst neighbors in the world.

Papabear Says

Let's pray that everything is worked out and they have a democratic government the respects all religions and all people.We don't want this to turn into another Iran because Israel will be in deeper stuff. It will be just a matter of time before middle east countries will have nuckes and we know Israel already have them. They will wipe each other off the map. There is nothing we can do because this hate have been going on for thousands of years. Let's just pray for peace.

"Prayer" and "hope" are not good strategies. If anything the reason we are in this mess is because people have been praying for **** that never happens. Democracy is also not some one size fits all solution. I don't tink Arabs are primitive or less sophisticated people but there are culttural and socio-economic conflicts that run so deep that they cannot be worked out through democracy alone. We didn't just instill democracy in the US, we fought a bloody civil war where one side defeated another to make way for democracy. You can't just put Israelis and Palestinians in the same country and expect democracy to work like magic. Reunite India and Pakistan two "democratic" countries and you will have another civil war. But, I also think the US should stop meddling in everything just to protect their own selfish interests, it may be justified in the short term but in the long term it just devalues and dilutes the american brand. The problem here is the people of this country have long been nurtured on unrealistic expectations like gas @ $3, while the rest of the world pays $9-15 for it. And then we go invade countries so we can continue our selfish desires for cheap living while the people in those other countries pay the price for it. To be true world leaders we have to show that we are capable of understanding their issues and then brokring real solutions that work for THEM, not just look after our own self interest and spin it like some altruistic crap. If anything it is the people in this country that exhibits somewhat primitive thinking in this deep seated pervasive notion that the world looks at the US as some "great hope". Self appointed greatness usually falls flat.

orangeblobman wrote:
Newsflash, bro. It's a sign of mental disorder if you don't want what is best for yourself and your country.

You live here. I don't mind paying much less for gas than any other country because that's what America earned through its own efforts. I don't care if someone pays 9-15$ per gallon. I enjoy cheap gasoline and want it to continue for as long as possible.

Being selfish isn't bad or sickly, NOT being selfish is deviant.

Perhaps when there is more suffering closer to home and a full collapse you will change your tune.

We live on a planet with limited resources, we should consume less and take care of each other more. It should be less about what "you" can afford and more about what is in the planets and it's people's best interests. Thinking we are entitled to more than the average person on the planet is what got us into this mess to begin with.

Being selfish is nothing short of mental disorder. The thing is, if enough people suffer from it, it appears easy to justify.
Good quote sums it up "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

earthmansurfer wrote:

orangeblobman wrote:
Newsflash, bro. It's a sign of mental disorder if you don't want what is best for yourself and your country.

You live here. I don't mind paying much less for gas than any other country because that's what America earned through its own efforts. I don't care if someone pays 9-15$ per gallon. I enjoy cheap gasoline and want it to continue for as long as possible.

Being selfish isn't bad or sickly, NOT being selfish is deviant.

Perhaps when there is more suffering closer to home and a full collapse you will change your tune.

We live on a planet with limited resources, we should consume less and take care of each other more. It should be less about what "you" can afford and more about what is in the planets and it's people's best interests. Thinking we are entitled to more than the average person on the planet is what got us into this mess to begin with.

Being selfish is nothing short of mental disorder. The thing is, if enough people suffer from it, it appears easy to justify.
Good quote sums it up "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

So you don't think you are selfish? When you say feel-good things like this, when you go out and volunteer at a hospital in Ghana, why do you do this? Is it because you are not selfish or because it makes you feel good to do these things, which means you are acting selfishly? When a pet or a relative dies, and you are sad, are you sad for them or are you sad for yourself who now has to go through the suffering of having lost a loved one? Is that selfish? What is it, really, to be 'selfish'? Is not selfishness natural and inseparable from life itself?

Nalod wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Democracy? Think it could work in Egypt?

We (the U.S., Europe) may not get the government they want in Egypt, but if the process is legit and open, I don't see why it can't work in principle. No guarantees, though.

Backing dictators who are supposedly our "allies" does not work in the end, and has come back to haunt us. At what point does our government admit this and change its way of thinking?

Haunt us? Consider the net effects if we did not back dictators.

I'm not saying it's good policy btw, just the better of two evils. Consider what happens when we don't support.

and yes it's very sad that oil matters not just here but everywhere.

You can make a case that our actions in the ME helped fuel the fundamentalist revolutions in those nations, just like you can say that our earliest actions in Vietnam, and our failure to reach out to a socialist leaning, but nationalistic, regime that we would eventually go to war with, led to that conflict.

Maybe the U.S. and Europe have already sowed the seeds that will minimize our positive influence in certain regions of the world.

What dictators have we backed who did not cause us some regret and hits to our world prestige?

Batista in Cuba? Hussein in Iraq? Pinochet in Chile? Noriega in Panama? South Vietnam? South Korea? The overthrow of a government in Guatemala that American companies wanted out in the 1950s? I suppose you can even say that we have never let democracy get in the way of our own economic interests to the point where we are viewed as total hypocrites by some.

The U.S. turns its eyes from the germs of political discord until they become epidemic or pandemic in proportion and then talks about the lesser of two evils and usually chooses to side with the known dictator instead of unknowable change until it becomes too late and we are seen as the enemy.

I understand that things are complicated, but why do we always seem to be on the wrong side in our decision making?

Nalod wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Democracy? Think it could work in Egypt?

We (the U.S., Europe) may not get the government they want in Egypt, but if the process is legit and open, I don't see why it can't work in principle. No guarantees, though.

Backing dictators who are supposedly our "allies" does not work in the end, and has come back to haunt us. At what point does our government admit this and change its way of thinking?

Haunt us? Consider the net effects if we did not back dictators.

I'm not saying it's good policy btw, just the better of two evils. Consider what happens when we don't support.

and yes it's very sad that oil matters not just here but everywhere.

this is not the best logic.

how about, what would happen if the u.s. govt supported democracy instead?

since the cold war we have supported authoritarian leaders that many here are not aware of or do not care to be aware of until it has nipped us in the bud...

meanwhile more than a few in those nations are aware that the u.s. backed these leaders...

and guess what? they don't like it...

that's considered one of the major reasons why radical islamist leaders have managed to benefit from this nonsense since the fall of the shah in iran...

it has been well documented that there have been leaders in such nations who were more in line with thinking that would make these nations allies, at least far more likely to become secular states, who had been imprisoned, killed, or suppressed by the authoritarian regimes.

however, it does not appear that the direction of the egyptian protests are any way linked to primarily being anything other than we want a better leader.

yet, it is hard to gauge what the outcome will be...

earthmansurfer wrote:

orangeblobman wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

orangeblobman wrote:
Newsflash, bro. It's a sign of mental disorder if you don't want what is best for yourself and your country.

You live here. I don't mind paying much less for gas than any other country because that's what America earned through its own efforts. I don't care if someone pays 9-15$ per gallon. I enjoy cheap gasoline and want it to continue for as long as possible.

Being selfish isn't bad or sickly, NOT being selfish is deviant.

Perhaps when there is more suffering closer to home and a full collapse you will change your tune.

We live on a planet with limited resources, we should consume less and take care of each other more. It should be less about what "you" can afford and more about what is in the planets and it's people's best interests. Thinking we are entitled to more than the average person on the planet is what got us into this mess to begin with.

Being selfish is nothing short of mental disorder. The thing is, if enough people suffer from it, it appears easy to justify.
Good quote sums it up "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

So you don't think you are selfish? When you say feel-good things like this, when you go out and volunteer at a hospital in Ghana, why do you do this? Is it because you are not selfish or because it makes you feel good to do these things, which means you are acting selfishly? When a pet or a relative dies, and you are sad, are you sad for them or are you sad for yourself who now has to go through the suffering of having lost a loved one? Is that selfish? What is it, really, to be 'selfish'? Is not selfishness natural and inseparable from life itself?

You seem to be justifying being well adjusted to a sick society.
Acknowledge your selfishness, don't justify it. It's a hard thing to say you are something, for when you do, it's hard to continue it. It partly destroys the image you have of yourself.

"Normal" is a really dangerous word. Seems to to be a popular excuse these days. Normal is not to be confused with responsible nor healthy. Don't mix culture with Love.

BTW - Way to dig up more Krishnamurti! LOL Yes, those were all examples of selfishness, but everyone is in a different place.

Being adjusted to society is healthy, sick is a label you put it on it out of your own hatred.

What is so sick about this society and, more importantly, can you name a 'healthy' one, by your criteria, that exists today?