fishmike wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

martin wrote:

MSG3 wrote:LeBron hasn't won ****. Carmelo carried a Syracuse team to a title. Not saying Melo is better but he's had more success in his career than LeBron. Melo belongs in the discussion with all the players mentioned above, save for Kobe who is a cut above the rest.

Carmelo is a top 10 player in this league. Put him with Amare and Felton you have a contender. Add a big man and you might have a favorite.

wow that's inflating Melo. Which dude in that hasn't been to the finals?

To say that Melo has had more success than LeBron is a big reach my man.

I know LeBron is a better player. But who has had more career success? You can make strong arguments either way. I just don't think Melo gets enough credit for the things he's done. He's a great player who if you have the opportunity to obtain you have to do everything possible. Now of course don't give up the entire roster if he can come in the summer. But I think it's BS to say he's not worth a big package as yahoo insinuated.

Furthermore, how transcendent has Wade been without the current roster or the years he was with Shaq? Yes he's a top 5 talent, but his teams when he was the man weren't very good.

Melo lead his team to the playoffs every single year in a tough as hell Western Conference. God willing he comes here you guys will see what a difference it will be. We'll be better than any of the 90s teams wig a few other tweaks. He is worth everything NJ is offering.

kobe as the man wasnt "elite" either (04-05 till 06-07) until the roster got some upgrades.

really? I think Kobe was still NBA defensive team wasnt he?

Melo can not sniff Lebron or Kobe's farts in this discussion. Winning all NBA defensive team AND being an elite scorer = superstar MVP caliber player. Winning a few all star games = all star caliber. Hey Before he got hurt lets put Gilbert Arenas in this mix than also? He did everything Melo did. Won a couple playoff games, put up some gaudy scoring #s, played in a couple all star games.

You guys are on crack. You think I hate Melo? I dont... I see what he is. You guys calling him top 10 or Lebron caliber are high-larious. When Melo decides that being an elite defender is just as important as being an elite scorer you guys can get back to me. Until then Melo is what he is. An all star player who is in clearly in the 2nd tier when it comes to the NBA elite.

You hate Melo with a passion. You know and I know these awards are given out like candy. Everyone knows that Micheal Jordan was MVP of the league year in and year out and they still found ways to give out awards to other players what the F is that.

tkf wrote:melo won't have to be the alpha male here.. amare has taken on that role, but melo can be a great sidekick and in the playoffs, not lebron, kobe or wade can stop this cat from scoring... nice option to have... teams will have to gameplan for melo.. believe that..

I second this. This is Amare's team. He is the unquestioned leader. Melo will fit in nicely with them. I think he will be a Knick and the Knicks will not give up too much for him off of the regular rotation, if at all.

Vmart wrote:You hate Melo with a passion. You know and I know these awards are given out like candy. Everyone knows that Micheal Jordan was MVP of the league year in and year out and they still found ways to give out awards to other players what the F is that.

awards aside, do you really qualify Melo as the same type of 2-way player as Kobe, LeBron, Wade?

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

MSG3 wrote:LeBron hasn't won ****. Carmelo carried a Syracuse team to a title. Not saying Melo is better but he's had more success in his career than LeBron. Melo belongs in the discussion with all the players mentioned above, save for Kobe who is a cut above the rest.

Carmelo is a top 10 player in this league. Put him with Amare and Felton you have a contender. Add a big man and you might have a favorite.

wow that's inflating Melo. Which dude in that hasn't been to the finals?

To say that Melo has had more success than LeBron is a big reach my man.

Its a joke. Has Melo been an all NBA defensive player? NO. Has Melo ever even been in an MVP conversation? NO. Melo got beat out to make the AS game by Kirilenko. Top ten player? Really. Here's ten guys. Please tell me which one of them your taking Melo over:
Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Dwight Howard, Wade, Deron Williams, CP3, Steve Nash, Blake Griffin, Amare Stoudemire, Pau Gasol.
Yea... and that list doesnt include anyone on the two best teams in the league Bos and SA or guys like Derrick Rose, Durant, Westbrook, etc.

Melo is a 2nd tier guy. He's a 3x all star, he's not an MVP caliber player. Never has been and never will be. He's in the Bosh catagory. He's in the pre-injury Arenas category. He's shot maker and a closer and could certainly be the 2nd star in a championship mix, but he's not an alpha star and shouldnt be discussed as that type of player.

Comparing him to Lebron tells me you dont really follow the sport or understand it.

Fish, are Gallo and Chandler or anyone on the Knicks in the category of players you mention? Isn't Melo closer to the players you listed than what we have today? I don't buy into this All Star game, all defensive team non sense. As long as MDA is here we won't be talking about that anyways especially all defensive anything.

If you dont care about defense or think its important in winning games I would see why you think Melo = Kobe or Lebron. He's not.

And to answer your question about isnt Melo closer to elite than the other players we have? Yes he is. And I would very much like to get Melo here, but the Knicks have a good young team with good young players and if the Knicks want to compete for a title its imperative that they DONT overpay for any player that doesnt make them immediately elite.

We are talking about losing Fields, Chandler and Gallo and using AR for pick. Thats the type of package Bos paid for KG. The problem is Melo aint KG, who is an MVP caliber player and defensive star. I dont think Melo is that caliber player and I have stated my reasons. Compounding that is that the one thing Melo is clearly elite at (scoring) is the last thing the Knicks need help with.

fishmike wrote:your wrong again amigo... Raja Bell was all NBA defensive team w/ MDA in Pho. The two moves MDA did while interim GM was bring in Kurt Thomas and sign Marcus Banks, two defense first player. You guys who say MDA doesnt coach defense or care about it are just making stuff up to suit your arguments.

If you dont care about defense or think its important in winning games I would see why you think Melo = Kobe or Lebron. He's not.

And to answer your question about isnt Melo closer to elite than the other players we have? Yes he is. And I would very much like to get Melo here, but the Knicks have a good young team with good young players and if the Knicks want to compete for a title its imperative that they DONT overpay for any player that doesnt make them immediately elite.

We are talking about losing Fields, Chandler and Gallo and using AR for pick. Thats the type of package Bos paid for KG. The problem is Melo aint KG, who is an MVP caliber player and defensive star. I dont think Melo is that caliber player and I have stated my reasons. Compounding that is that the one thing Melo is clearly elite at (scoring) is the last thing the Knicks need help with.

excellent post fish...

sidsanders wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

martin wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

martin wrote:Kobe, Melo in the same category. wow this **** is getting thick

the compare points would simply be that only 1 player has carried a team far in recent memory with less then high caliber help and that was lbj (as best as i can recall). jordan showed the same thing as well, he needed help.

well, I really don't understand what you are saying.

All I know is that Melo shouldn't be in the same sentence with Kobe, Wade, LeBron, wouldn't you agree?

in terms of skillset sure. in terms of this aspect of the article: "elevates everyone and changes everything", i think only lbj applies. wade/bryant produced less then stellar results when they had less then stellar supporting casts.

fishmike -- this is my point...

and I disagree. Isnt defense a skill set? Can Kobe or Lebron lock down a wing for a 7 game series? YES. Can Melo? NO. Can Melo ever? Is it possible Melo gets here and really dedicates himself to rebounding and defending at a higher level? Of course, but if your going to wait for Melo to do something that he hasnt done in the past why not wait for our own guys to develop, cause if we are getting Melo we are trading all our young guys to get him.

If we are getting Melo for Gallo, AR and expiring contracts then who cares? Thats a steal. Thats not the scenario.

Some are saying Curry, AR (or the 1st he can become) and Gallo or Chandler. Sign me up for that trade. No brainer, imo.

Others are saying Curry, Chandler, Gallo and Fields. I'm definitely not making that trade.

If it's Curry plus 2 of Gallo, Chandler and Fields, I'm in a quandry -- I really think that's a tough call, but I probably pass hoping Melo falls to us as a FA and hoping that if he doesn't, we can get an upgrade at the 5 without giving up so much or killing our cap. A very good 5, even if he isn't as good a player as Melo, fills our needs better and may therefore help almost as much, so I wouldn't give up 2 of our 3 young starters plus a huge contract that limits our ability to fill in the gap.

SupremeCommander wrote:

bernard wrote:For some reason, these arguments continue to be interesting even though not too much new is being said. To me ... and I think to most of the people on this forum ... the key question is what we'd have to give up to get Melo.

Some are saying Curry, AR (or the 1st he can become) and Gallo or Chandler. Sign me up for that trade. No brainer, imo.

Others are saying Curry, Chandler, Gallo and Fields. I'm definitely not making that trade.

If it's Curry plus 2 of Gallo, Chandler and Fields, I'm in a quandry -- I really think that's a tough call, but I probably pass hoping Melo falls to us as a FA and hoping that if he doesn't, we can get an upgrade at the 5 without giving up so much or killing our cap. A very good 5, even if he isn't as good a player as Melo, fills our needs better and may therefore help almost as much, so I wouldn't give up 2 of our 3 young starters plus a huge contract that limits our ability to fill in the gap.

Good post. It really boils down to value. The team doesn't have enough depth to afford to trade all the most tradeable assets, because the team won't have the depth to beat the Celtics/Bulls/Magic or be able to match Miami's stars. If the right balance is struck the deal has to be made. Multiple All NBA team guys don't hit the market often

I do think the closer to the deadline it gets, the more value the Knicks will get. The fans are booing Melo. The Nuggets appear determined to not lose him for nothing.

I agree. It all depends on the deal.

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

If we don't get Carmelo our chances for winning a championship is null. This team we have now can't stop a 4ft midget driving to the basket. Our defense stink. We are still playing match point with every team we play.What we have now is fools gold.

Melo isn't going to fix our defensive liabilities, he'll just score a lot and take shots from other dudes. He'll rebound some, defend little and get to the line tons of times. But to suggest he would be a difference maker on defense is absurd.

SupremeCommander wrote:

bernard wrote:For some reason, these arguments continue to be interesting even though not too much new is being said. To me ... and I think to most of the people on this forum ... the key question is what we'd have to give up to get Melo.

Some are saying Curry, AR (or the 1st he can become) and Gallo or Chandler. Sign me up for that trade. No brainer, imo.

Others are saying Curry, Chandler, Gallo and Fields. I'm definitely not making that trade.

If it's Curry plus 2 of Gallo, Chandler and Fields, I'm in a quandry -- I really think that's a tough call, but I probably pass hoping Melo falls to us as a FA and hoping that if he doesn't, we can get an upgrade at the 5 without giving up so much or killing our cap. A very good 5, even if he isn't as good a player as Melo, fills our needs better and may therefore help almost as much, so I wouldn't give up 2 of our 3 young starters plus a huge contract that limits our ability to fill in the gap.

Good post. It really boils down to value. The team doesn't have enough depth to afford to trade all the most tradeable assets, because the team won't have the depth to beat the Celtics/Bulls/Magic or be able to match Miami's stars. If the right balance is struck the deal has to be made. Multiple All NBA team guys don't hit the market often

I do think the closer to the deadline it gets, the more value the Knicks will get. The fans are booing Melo. The Nuggets appear determined to not lose him for nothing.

Good posts, guys. I agree it's a value trade. We should definitely get him if the cost isn't too steep because he DOES bring something this team lacks: A finisher in tight games such as most in the playoffs. Amare tripled? Can't do shyte. Melo? Will get his shot off, make ridiculously tough shots, and be the man in crunch time to get us needed wins.

But depth can't go out with the bath water. Curry, AR (or 1st), ONE of Gallo/Chandler, 2014 1st, and $3mil. Nada mas. And I think the Nuggs will take it come Feb 23rd because there's plenty of value there compared to squat TPE next summer.

Moonangie wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

If we don't get Carmelo our chances for winning a championship is null. This team we have now can't stop a 4ft midget driving to the basket. Our defense stink. We are still playing match point with every team we play.What we have now is fools gold.

Melo isn't going to fix our defensive liabilities, he'll just score a lot and take shots from other dudes. He'll rebound some, defend little and get to the line tons of times. But to suggest he would be a difference maker on defense is absurd.

SupremeCommander wrote:

bernard wrote:For some reason, these arguments continue to be interesting even though not too much new is being said. To me ... and I think to most of the people on this forum ... the key question is what we'd have to give up to get Melo.

Some are saying Curry, AR (or the 1st he can become) and Gallo or Chandler. Sign me up for that trade. No brainer, imo.

Others are saying Curry, Chandler, Gallo and Fields. I'm definitely not making that trade.

If it's Curry plus 2 of Gallo, Chandler and Fields, I'm in a quandry -- I really think that's a tough call, but I probably pass hoping Melo falls to us as a FA and hoping that if he doesn't, we can get an upgrade at the 5 without giving up so much or killing our cap. A very good 5, even if he isn't as good a player as Melo, fills our needs better and may therefore help almost as much, so I wouldn't give up 2 of our 3 young starters plus a huge contract that limits our ability to fill in the gap.

Good post. It really boils down to value. The team doesn't have enough depth to afford to trade all the most tradeable assets, because the team won't have the depth to beat the Celtics/Bulls/Magic or be able to match Miami's stars. If the right balance is struck the deal has to be made. Multiple All NBA team guys don't hit the market often

I do think the closer to the deadline it gets, the more value the Knicks will get. The fans are booing Melo. The Nuggets appear determined to not lose him for nothing.

Good posts, guys. I agree it's a value trade. We should definitely get him if the cost isn't too steep because he DOES bring something this team lacks: A finisher in tight games such as most in the playoffs. Amare tripled? Can't do shyte. Melo? Will get his shot off, make ridiculously tough shots, and be the man in crunch time to get us needed wins.

But depth can't go out with the bath water. Curry, AR (or 1st), ONE of Gallo/Chandler, 2014 1st, and $3mil. Nada mas. And I think the Nuggs will take it come Feb 23rd because there's plenty of value there compared to squat TPE next summer.

To some its not a value discussion. Its Melo = superstar and if you can trade for him you do that no matter what because then with 2 stars you will compete for a title.

When you try to approach that group with such information that maybe Melo isnt the best fit here, or that trading Gallo and Fields to the Nugs and using Chandler and AR to get picks from other teams and then giving the Nuggs cap relief by taking back Harrington's contract to complete a deal might NOT be in the Knicks best interest your simply labeled a Carmelo hater and your opinion is meaningless.

Melo is a stud and I think he would be loved here, but there is such a thing as overpaying, and the Knicks have to be careful because they have 3-4 players with unrealized value. If Gallo/Chandler/Fields were all 25-26 its a different story.

what if in 2 years:
Fields is giving you 14ppg and 9 rebs on 50% shooting at SG
Chandler is giving you 20ppg, 2 blocks and 8rebs on 50% shooting at PF or off the bench
Gallo is giving you 18ppg, 7 rebs and shooting 45% from downtown as your 6'10 SF?

Those 3 guys could do that and never make an AS game. Is Melo worth that? Not to me... and that doesnt even factor in what else you could get or who you could draft with a pick for AR, etc

Or we could ignore all that and say fishmike hates Melo with a passion. Its full retard.

Some here think if we got Melo for Fields, AR and some expiring contracts I wouldnt be happy. Its idiotic... I would love that. Dude wants to play here! I just dont want to trade my whole young core for the guy.

Vmart wrote:

martin wrote:

Vmart wrote:You hate Melo with a passion. You know and I know these awards are given out like candy. Everyone knows that Micheal Jordan was MVP of the league year in and year out and they still found ways to give out awards to other players what the F is that.

awards aside, do you really qualify Melo as the same type of 2-way player as Kobe, LeBron, Wade?

I think your perception of defense is all wrong. You put Wade in there? I have seen Wade get abused by players do you remember when Crawford went off on him cracking his ankles, I have seen Melo himself drop point after point on LeBron, I have seen Pierce go tooth and nail vs LeBron what defense are you talking about. This is all perception, they give out these popularity awards and you guys buy into it like it is, there are only a hand full of exceptional defensive players in the league. Your talking Ben Wallace in his prime, Camby, Artest, Bowen now retired, Prince, Duncan they play great defense not LeBron, Wade they play decent defense and Melo is in their category as far as defense is concerned. I have said LeBron is in his own class as he an all around player. Don't give me Wade is better than Melo that BS they are in the same category of players. I'm even gonna throw Kobe in the Wade, Melo mix, only difference is Kobe had the luxury of playing with a stacked team. Same with Wade he had the luxury of catching Shaq just before he mailed it in. Melo never had this kind of luxury to tag along an elite an all time player like Shaq. Now Kobe has Gasol to work with. Paul Pierce was the same this guy had the same fate in store as Melo until KG and Allen came along. Give Melo Amar'e then you will see his value. You guys a short changing a very good elite player in Melo.

wow