JrZyHuStLa wrote:Melo > any Knick besides Amar'e.

You put this poll question on any major sports site, and 90% of the world would agree with this.

I really don't think most folks would dispute this, but the Melo "controversy" is not necessarily about his ability as compared to this or that player- it is about how he fits in with this team and this system, and what the gain of Melo and the loss of certain components of our present team will mean short-term and long term.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

crzymdups wrote:what's the similarity in the last three teams to beat the heat?

dallas, la clippers and nuggets. SIZE.

dallas has tyson chandler and brendan haywood and dirk. LA Clipse have Blake and Deandre Jordan. Denver has Nene and Kmart.

i think it'd be far more valuable to chase Deandre Jordan or Nene in the off-season.

I agree with everything you say we need to utilize height. But our coach is not a believer of that. Deandre he would never see the light of day on the Knicks. Nene might see some but as you have seen MDA is quick to move away from anything center oriented and quickly goes back to what he is comfortable with which is small ball.

Thats where your wrong and where the get Melo no matter what crew just starts making stuff up. Last I checked MDA started a rookie 7 foot center over Chandler. The reason Mosgov is benched is because he played poorly. What MDA does is play the best players he has. AR and Mosgov (and Darko and Hill for that matter) were not good players here. Its really that simple. Mosgov's size, while needed does not make him a better player than Chandler or the other guys in the rotation.

What we need is QUALITY size.

VMart I have no problem with Melo to NY. Never once have. Its always been about cost and whats best for the team. Paying $20mm to a wing who's a mediocre defender and shoots in the low 40s when we are already loaded at the position doesnt make sense to me. Its crystal clear the two things holding the Knicks back are defense and rebounding, neither of which Melo is in the elite group in.

If we get him for one rotation guy (Chandler, Fields or Gallo) one prospect (Mos, AR, Douglas) and expiring contract (Curry or Azu) then I'm all for it.

You guys always skirt this part of the discussion and revert to: a) fishmike hates Melo or b) Melo is better than Gallo or some other player.

Right now the market for Melo would cost us Chandler, Fields, Gallo and expiring contracts plus take back some crap like Al Harrington. Sorry, but thats a BAD deal for the Knicks, doesnt make us better and locks us into being the 3rd or 4th best team in the East while paying Amare/Melo $40mm the next few years.

But if you like we can just ignore that and talk about how great Melo is. Like this one goes to 11

Fish, your wrong on the center thing. MDA has problems utilizing centers. He had Shaq and found it difficult to utlize Shaq in Phoenix. He may give a player a chance but he will always find a way to revert back to what he is comfortable with, and that is a fact. He can't handle a legit center. He can't do anything with that. He would rather go with a PF as his center, he has been doing that for sometime now and that is why I laugh at all these we need a center trip that this board goes through he is not going to utilize any center that you bring in to the fullest. Right now I'll take the wins any way they come so I'm not going to fault MDA to much, but come playoff time that is going to be a huge problem for the Knicks. Deep down this small ball game is fools gold and eventually it will catch up to the Knicks.

As for the Melo thing, I don't worry about giving to much for him because Walsh knows his value better that most on this board. He will get Melo here and it will be a fair deal. But he has to bring in Melo that is a must for the KNicks to even think about championships in the near future.

Even with Melo on the team, we'll still need rebounding, defense, and a backup PG for Felton. We'll have a much smaller budget to work with to fill those needs. That's what's worrying people.

Shaq was super washed up by the time he got to Phoenix. You keep saying that MDA won't play a center, even if he's good. I don't understand what you're basing that on. I get what you're saying that MDA in Phoenix and in NY has a history of playing Amare at C but I don't really think he had a better option in terms of trying to win games. You're making it sound like if MDA had Dwight Howard or Pau Gasol on this team he wouldn't play them because then Amare has to play PF.

You know what I'll tell it like it is MDA would not be able to utilize Howard or he would get frustrated with him reason he is raw. But Pau Gasol who is essential a skilled PF with range on his shot and pretty decent passing pf can be utilized by MDA. That is why I think Andre Blatche would be best for the Knicks to play center, I am not a fan of his but he fits the bill for a MDA center and he is not a center he is a PF.

Vmart wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

crzymdups wrote:what's the similarity in the last three teams to beat the heat?

dallas, la clippers and nuggets. SIZE.

dallas has tyson chandler and brendan haywood and dirk. LA Clipse have Blake and Deandre Jordan. Denver has Nene and Kmart.

i think it'd be far more valuable to chase Deandre Jordan or Nene in the off-season.

I agree with everything you say we need to utilize height. But our coach is not a believer of that. Deandre he would never see the light of day on the Knicks. Nene might see some but as you have seen MDA is quick to move away from anything center oriented and quickly goes back to what he is comfortable with which is small ball.

Thats where your wrong and where the get Melo no matter what crew just starts making stuff up. Last I checked MDA started a rookie 7 foot center over Chandler. The reason Mosgov is benched is because he played poorly. What MDA does is play the best players he has. AR and Mosgov (and Darko and Hill for that matter) were not good players here. Its really that simple. Mosgov's size, while needed does not make him a better player than Chandler or the other guys in the rotation.

What we need is QUALITY size.

VMart I have no problem with Melo to NY. Never once have. Its always been about cost and whats best for the team. Paying $20mm to a wing who's a mediocre defender and shoots in the low 40s when we are already loaded at the position doesnt make sense to me. Its crystal clear the two things holding the Knicks back are defense and rebounding, neither of which Melo is in the elite group in.

If we get him for one rotation guy (Chandler, Fields or Gallo) one prospect (Mos, AR, Douglas) and expiring contract (Curry or Azu) then I'm all for it.

You guys always skirt this part of the discussion and revert to: a) fishmike hates Melo or b) Melo is better than Gallo or some other player.

Right now the market for Melo would cost us Chandler, Fields, Gallo and expiring contracts plus take back some crap like Al Harrington. Sorry, but thats a BAD deal for the Knicks, doesnt make us better and locks us into being the 3rd or 4th best team in the East while paying Amare/Melo $40mm the next few years.

But if you like we can just ignore that and talk about how great Melo is. Like this one goes to 11

Fish, your wrong on the center thing. MDA has problems utilizing centers. He had Shaq and found it difficult to utlize Shaq in Phoenix. He may give a player a chance but he will always find a way to revert back to what he is comfortable with, and that is a fact. He can't handle a legit center. He can't do anything with that. He would rather go with a PF as his center, he has been doing that for sometime now and that is why I laugh at all these we need a center trip that this board goes through he is not going to utilize any center that you bring in to the fullest. Right now I'll take the wins any way they come so I'm not going to fault MDA to much, but come playoff time that is going to be a huge problem for the Knicks. Deep down this small ball game is fools gold and eventually it will catch up to the Knicks.

As for the Melo thing, I don't worry about giving to much for him because Walsh knows his value better that most on this board. He will get Melo here and it will be a fair deal. But he has to bring in Melo that is a must for the KNicks to even think about championships in the near future.

Even with Melo on the team, we'll still need rebounding, defense, and a backup PG for Felton. We'll have a much smaller budget to work with to fill those needs. That's what's worrying people.

Shaq was super washed up by the time he got to Phoenix. You keep saying that MDA won't play a center, even if he's good. I don't understand what you're basing that on. I get what you're saying that MDA in Phoenix and in NY has a history of playing Amare at C but I don't really think he had a better option in terms of trying to win games. You're making it sound like if MDA had Dwight Howard or Pau Gasol on this team he wouldn't play them because then Amare has to play PF.

You know what I'll tell it like it is MDA would not be able to utilize Howard or he would get frustrated with him reason he is raw. But Pau Gasol who is essential a skilled PF with range on his shot and pretty decent passing pf can be utilized by MDA. That is why I think Andre Blatche would be best for the Knicks to play center, I am not a fan of his but he fits the bill for a MDA center and he is not a center he is a PF.

Blatche has a few years left on his deal...but i guess if they would take Turiaf and Walker it would be close to a cap wash for next year

Vmart wrote:I agree with you that there will be holes even if we get Melo, but I am a believer that you get you stars aligned first then the other parts will be filled in just as the Heat were able to fill out there roster and they have three stars.

The Heat were kind of a unique situation. If you told someone that LeDouche, D-Wade and Bosh would all agree to take paycuts to play together no one would have believed you. Imagine how scary they would look now with Udonis Haslem healthy and in the future without Joel Anthony locked into a 5 year deal.

People keep saying that you can't win with run n gun in the playoffs just like they did about MDA's suns..who I still think could have won it all the year that Robert Horry hipchecked Nash into the scorers table. But unlike those Suns teams this Heat team is elite on D. For people who say their offense won't work in the playoffs, I guess we'll see this summer.

Vmart wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Vmart wrote:I agree with you that there will be holes even if we get Melo, but I am a believer that you get you stars aligned first then the other parts will be filled in just as the Heat were able to fill out there roster and they have three stars.

The Heat were kind of a unique situation. If you told someone that LeDouche, D-Wade and Bosh would all agree to take paycuts to play together no one would have believed you. Imagine how scary they would look now with Udonis Haslem healthy and in the future without Joel Anthony locked into a 5 year deal.

People keep saying that you can't win with run n gun in the playoffs just like they did about MDA's suns..who I still think could have won it all the year that Robert Horry hipchecked Nash into the scorers table. But unlike those Suns teams this Heat team is elite on D. For people who say their offense won't work in the playoffs, I guess we'll see this summer.

Well the Knicks angle is we are devoid of the third superstar and that money can be used to get talent in or keep some of their own players.

or get lucky and draft a Rajon Rondo (or Landry Fields) type late. Which is great because you get a valuable contributor to your team on a rookie salary scale. This is why I'm praying that it won't cost us Fields or too many picks to get Melo. When you have stars taking up giant amounts of your cap it's critical you get really good value out of the other players. Nothing to do really but hope DW doesn't get reamed in a Melo deal or overpay for a mid tier guy.

fishmike wrote:ahhh... I see Melo truly seized the moment to score 20 points on James Jones in Lebron's absence. Good to know the future cornerstone of our franchise is capable of such feats

great player

great thread

ahh, i see you didn't know Melo scored 21 in 3 quarters & sat the entire 4th because his team was already blowing out the Heat by 30+ after 36 minutes of play.

crzymdups wrote:what's the similarity in the last three teams to beat the heat?

dallas, la clippers and nuggets. SIZE.

dallas has tyson chandler and brendan haywood and dirk. LA Clipse have Blake and Deandre Jordan. Denver has Nene and Kmart.

i think it'd be far more valuable to chase Deandre Jordan or Nene in the off-season.

Nene is 6'11" 250
KMart is 6'9" 240

that's pretty normal for an NBA frontcourt... not exactly huge upfront.

Turiaf is 6'10" 245
Amare is 6'10" 240

how is our frontcourt lacking in size but the Nuggets aren't in your view?

TMS wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:Can't find as much significance in this game as there might have been since James was out, and the Heat were coming off of a tough loss the night before on a Western swing road trip (they probably got home from the Clipper game at about 3 AM Eastern time).

Always good to see the Heat lose, though.

Thats because there isnt any significance. Its funny how guys cry and bitch about Briggs creating new threads for the guys he likes then do the exact same thing for Melo. Good stuff.

Big difference posting about Carmelo Anthony and making up dumb trades for Krylo Fasenko and CJ Watson.

let's go back to talking about how we'd be dumb not to sign David Lee to a 6 year contract extension... that was so much more enlightening.

I thought about that but I then thought about the repercussions and decided to spare the good posters of UK another one of your "I'm manning up" threads. Think of it as a service to the community.

Vmart wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Vmart wrote:I agree with you that there will be holes even if we get Melo, but I am a believer that you get you stars aligned first then the other parts will be filled in just as the Heat were able to fill out there roster and they have three stars.

The Heat were kind of a unique situation. If you told someone that LeDouche, D-Wade and Bosh would all agree to take paycuts to play together no one would have believed you. Imagine how scary they would look now with Udonis Haslem healthy and in the future without Joel Anthony locked into a 5 year deal.

People keep saying that you can't win with run n gun in the playoffs just like they did about MDA's suns..who I still think could have won it all the year that Robert Horry hipchecked Nash into the scorers table. But unlike those Suns teams this Heat team is elite on D. For people who say their offense won't work in the playoffs, I guess we'll see this summer.

Well the Knicks angle is we are devoid of the third superstar and that money can be used to get talent in or keep some of their own players.

Also LBJ/Wade are both high assist guys. Guys that create a lot of open shots for others while they are busy getting their offense. Neither Amare or Melo do that. Its easier to just put pieces around LBJ/Wade because those guys make other players clearly better. Melo/Amare dont really do that. Create space? Sure.. but create shots? It just doesnt happen.

The ONLY way your building a title caliber team around Amare/Melo/Felton is if you have a top flight defensive player at SG and C and as you can see those are not easy needs to fill. Not even close.

Players like Chandler, Fields, Gallo.. they arent easy to just go out and get. They cost $10mm a year, they are high lottery picks, or your very lucky with a guy like Fields. Look at the MLE players around the league.. you dont get Gallo/Chandler/Fields... you get Al Harrington or a 40 year old Jermain Oneil.

If I am wrong I am overvaluing our young players who at 22 and 23 years old I believe can be key rotation parts of an elite team. All 3 have all star potential, or certainly just below.

fishmike wrote:If we get Melo, who are are the 3 stars? Amare/Melo/Felton? I would rather have Lebron and Wade than all 3 of those guys. Thats the real problem, is that Melo is 2nd tier. Amare is a top ten player but he's certainly a notch below Lebron who's a multiple MVP and Wade who is a top player and probably the best finisher behind Kobe.

Also LBJ/Wade are both high assist guys. Guys that create a lot of open shots for others while they are busy getting their offense. Neither Amare or Melo do that. Its easier to just put pieces around LBJ/Wade because those guys make other players clearly better. Melo/Amare dont really do that. Create space? Sure.. but create shots? It just doesnt happen.

The ONLY way your building a title caliber team around Amare/Melo/Felton is if you have a top flight defensive player at SG and C and as you can see those are not easy needs to fill. Not even close.

Players like Chandler, Fields, Gallo.. they arent easy to just go out and get. They cost $10mm a year, they are high lottery picks, or your very lucky with a guy like Fields. Look at the MLE players around the league.. you dont get Gallo/Chandler/Fields... you get Al Harrington or a 40 year old Jermain Oneil.

If I am wrong I am overvaluing our young players who at 22 and 23 years old I believe can be key rotation parts of an elite team. All 3 have all star potential, or certainly just below.

Some good points. Sadly we're going to have to pay Chandler after this season to keep him. Fields will be cheap but it looks like he's only signed till next season. Gallo is a RFA after next season. If he develops the way his biggest fans here wants him to, he's going to cost a lot too. The pluses are we can go over the cap to sign them but that would mean no room for other restricted and unrestricted FAs.

I have no clue why the F Denver signed Al Harrington to a long term deal. That was crazy to me. Long term commitments to mediocre players are cap cripplers.

TMS wrote:the way to defeat a high octane offense is by playing suffocating defense... it's been proven many times in postseason play in many different sports... great defensive teams dictate the pace of the action & beat teams by taking away what their opponent is trying to do on offense... adding a player like Melo makes this much harder to do for teams playing against us... if u try & stop Amare in the post or take away the PnR w/Amare, u have Melo on the other side ready to torch you... if u double on Melo in the high post, Ray Felton will either kill you with his penetration or dish it off to Amare for an easy dunk underneath the basket.

IMO given the fact we've invested our future into hiring an offensive minded coach & the unlikelihood of ever being able to match up with Miami or Boston's defense, our likely best option right now would be to overload the team with great offensive players that will make their job of defending us all the more difficult.

sure there are negatives to adding Melo in terms of his defensive deficiencies, but you'd be a fool to ignore the positives he would bring to this franchise... there is no way that DW is going to gut our roster to get Melo here if you believe what he's said up to this point, he's waiting things out & playing it the right way by being patient... all the doomsday panic that you hear on the forums about how we're going to have to give up every young player we have to get Melo here is based on nothing but pure speculation.

There's still a sliver of hope we can be competitive defensively with Melo + Amare but most likely we'll have to just outscore everyone. It'll be fun to watch if it happens.

I can't imagine the amount of debate when we have to decide on extending Felton vs. making a play for Paul or DW. I do love me Felton's attitude.

crzymdups wrote:

TMS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:what's the similarity in the last three teams to beat the heat?

dallas, la clippers and nuggets. SIZE.

dallas has tyson chandler and brendan haywood and dirk. LA Clipse have Blake and Deandre Jordan. Denver has Nene and Kmart.

i think it'd be far more valuable to chase Deandre Jordan or Nene in the off-season.

Nene is 6'11" 250
KMart is 6'9" 240

that's pretty normal for an NBA frontcourt... not exactly huge upfront.

Turiaf is 6'10" 245
Amare is 6'10" 240

how is our frontcourt lacking in size but the Nuggets aren't in your view?

Turiaf can't defend very well or stay on the court. Nene is a horse after his earlier injury history. If Turiaf could play 35 minutes a night and grab 10 rebounds and play better defense, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But he can't.

Knicks need a starting center - Turiaf is a good backup. Is this really news?

i'm not trying to debate whether Turiaf is a better C than Nene... it's obvious Turiaf isn't the player Nene is... but as for Turiaf playing 35 minutes a night & grabbing 10 rebounds, who on the Nuggets is able to do that on a nightly basis? Nene & KMart aren't doing that either... Carmelo's their leading rebounder with 8.2 per game.

your point was that our lack of size was the reason we can't match up to the Heat, yet you pointed out the Nuggets in your example... just an FYI, they didn't beat the Heat w/their size last night, they beat them by just being better at making their shots on the perimeter... Melo & JR Smith torched them from the midrange & outside while Ty Lawson was a catalyst defeating the Heat defenders w/his quickness & penetration.