TMS wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:btw I thought this thread was about Plan B if we DON'T get Melo. So uhhh..no need to post about how we need Melo, right?

i think the point i was trying to make is that if we miss out on Melo, our plan B should be focused on targetting better talent than role players like the ones martin is proposing on this thread... not to say that Nene & Pietrus aren't nice players, but those types of players are fillins AFTER you put together your core

I wasn't referring to you specifically. I just noticed a lot of We Need Melo posts in response to a thread about what we should do, should Melo land elsewhere.

I'm fairly optimistic that Walsh will not do anything crazy cap wise and that (barring an injury to league MVP Amear) the Knicks have nowhere to go but up.

If we do miss out on Melo who do you see being a realistic target to go after THIS offseason?

Seems to be plenty of talent coming off the books next offseason: Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, etc. Those guys may all just stay with their current squads though I have a feeling the Knicks are better off future wise than both Nawlins AND Orlando. If the Magic don't break through this season they have a lot of veterans with big contracts who've peaked. Can't see Dwight Howard wanting to stay there.

I'm going through every single roster in the league and there aren't many players that seem like they'd be a good fit here basketball wise and $ wise. The only player beyond role players that seem realistic to me are:

Iggy (why draft Evan Turner Philly? Weird)

David West ?? I think has a player option but can't see him fitting in here really

Mo Williams ?? though he's more on a Nene level. He seems to do well when playing with a star talent so he can get easy looks. Might do well here but might be too high priced as a backup PG. Also seems to have peaked a season or two ago.

Rip Hamilton ?? Great player at moving off the ball but his salary seems a bit much at this stage in his career. he definitely wants to get the hell out of Detroit ASAP. On Detroits books for 2 more seasons after this one at 12.6M per. Would take time away from Landry at the 2. Might be a viable rotation guy to spell both Felton and Fields. We know he is a pro and will move the ball but 12.6 M for a backup guard. Yech.

Ben Gordon - 0 defense. Great shooter. Fits here? Maybe? LOOOONG deal big $. Most of us would say pass.

Kevin Martin - super efficient scorer. Great shooter obviously. Not so great on D I think and doesn't seem like Houston would really have any motivation to deal him. Basically the same contract as Rip Hamilton.

To me the best plan B is

a) Iggy

or

b) add role players whose $ and games fit here and attempt to land a big fish via trade during the season or free agency via 2012. NY will be a more attractive destination if we build on what will hopefully be a return to relevance this season. I don't know about you but I'm super excited to see nonstop Deron, Chris Paul and Howard threads all of next offseason!

I don't really see that many IMPACT stars outside of Melo that are going to be available. I guess that's why a lot of folks feel like you have to go after Melo, warts and all, because impact players just aren't available that often. Here's what free agency looks like during the Amare Window.

2009-2010 offseason: Multiple franchise changers available (one of whom we landed)

===========================================================================================

2010-2011 offseason: Melo (and kinda West, Nene), Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol (would be crazy if he just said F the Grizz they never pass me the damn ball and went elsewhere)

Role player:

Carlos Delfino..i think he'd be PERFECT for NY. not an impact player but CHEAP.
Troy Murphy - perfect for us offensively. good rebounder. defense...uhhh.
Dalembert - opposite of murphy.
Thaddeus Young
Barbosa - hopefully TD becomes a better defensive version of him...
Nick young - restricted. guessing the Wiz keep him around

===========================================================================================

2011-2012 offseason Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, Gerald Wallace, Chris Kaman,

* Ilyasova * I like this guy. very active defensively, can shoot from outside, young, cheap.
Batum - athletic. versatile.
Okur
Hinrich - love him. but might be running out of gas

==============================================================================================

2012-2013 Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Stephen Jackson (washed up by then?), Kevin Martin, Roy Hibbert (RFA I'm guessing the Pacers extend him soon) Devin Harris, Calderon

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

TMS wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:btw I thought this thread was about Plan B if we DON'T get Melo. So uhhh..no need to post about how we need Melo, right?

i think the point i was trying to make is that if we miss out on Melo, our plan B should be focused on targetting better talent than role players like the ones martin is proposing on this thread... not to say that Nene & Pietrus aren't nice players, but those types of players are fillins AFTER you put together your core

I wasn't referring to you specifically. I just noticed a lot of We Need Melo posts in response to a thread about what we should do, should Melo land elsewhere.

I'm fairly optimistic that Walsh will not do anything crazy cap wise and that (barring an injury to league MVP Amear) the Knicks have nowhere to go but up.

If we do miss out on Melo who do you see being a realistic target to go after THIS offseason?

Seems to be plenty of talent coming off the books next offseason: Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, etc. Those guys may all just stay with their current squads though I have a feeling the Knicks are better off future wise than both Nawlins AND Orlando. If the Magic don't break through this season they have a lot of veterans with big contracts who've peaked. Can't see Dwight Howard wanting to stay there.

I'm going through every single roster in the league and there aren't many players that seem like they'd be a good fit here basketball wise and $ wise. The only player beyond role players that seem realistic to me are:

Iggy (why draft Evan Turner Philly? Weird)

David West ?? I think has a player option but can't see him fitting in here really

Mo Williams ?? though he's more on a Nene level. He seems to do well when playing with a star talent so he can get easy looks. Might do well here but might be too high priced as a backup PG. Also seems to have peaked a season or two ago.

Rip Hamilton ?? Great player at moving off the ball but his salary seems a bit much at this stage in his career. he definitely wants to get the hell out of Detroit ASAP. On Detroits books for 2 more seasons after this one at 12.6M per. Would take time away from Landry at the 2. Might be a viable rotation guy to spell both Felton and Fields. We know he is a pro and will move the ball but 12.6 M for a backup guard. Yech.

Ben Gordon - 0 defense. Great shooter. Fits here? Maybe? LOOOONG deal big $. Most of us would say pass.

Kevin Martin - super efficient scorer. Great shooter obviously. Not so great on D I think and doesn't seem like Houston would really have any motivation to deal him. Basically the same contract as Rip Hamilton.

To me the best plan B is

a) Iggy

or

b) add role players whose $ and games fit here and attempt to land a big fish via trade during the season or free agency via 2012. NY will be a more attractive destination if we build on what will hopefully be a return to relevance this season. I don't know about you but I'm super excited to see nonstop Deron, Chris Paul and Howard threads all of next offseason!

I don't really see that many IMPACT stars outside of Melo that are going to be available. I guess that's why a lot of folks feel like you have to go after Melo, warts and all, because impact players just aren't available that often. Here's what free agency looks like during the Amare Window.

2009-2010 offseason: Multiple franchise changers available (one of whom we landed)

===========================================================================================

2010-2011 offseason: Melo (and kinda West, Nene), Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol (would be crazy if he just said F the Grizz they never pass me the damn ball and went elsewhere)

Role player:

Carlos Delfino..i think he'd be PERFECT for NY. not an impact player but CHEAP.
Troy Murphy - perfect for us offensively. good rebounder. defense...uhhh.
Dalembert - opposite of murphy.
Thaddeus Young
Barbosa - hopefully TD becomes a better defensive version of him...
Nick young - restricted. guessing the Wiz keep him around

===========================================================================================

2011-2012 offseason Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, Gerald Wallace, Chris Kaman,

* Ilyasova * I like this guy. very active defensively, can shoot from outside, young, cheap.
Batum - athletic. versatile.
Okur
Hinrich - love him. but might be running out of gas

==============================================================================================

2012-2013 Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Stephen Jackson (washed up by then?), Kevin Martin, Roy Hibbert (RFA I'm guessing the Pacers extend him soon) Devin Harris, Calderon

i think martin's suggestions of both Nene & Pietrus are definitely role players i would consider as fill in options... i would also target guys like Camby, Varejao, Okafor, Jerebko, Kirilenko, Tayshaun, Barbosa & Raja Bell... i love the idea of adding a guy like Kevin Martin too but not sure why Houston would wanna deal him to us.

i'm not enamored w/guys like Ben Gordon, Rip Hamilton & David West... i think West would be redundant w/Amare here & wouldn't solve any need for size at the C position... & i think Gordon is more of a freelancer than a system guy, so not sure how he'd mesh with MDA... i'd rather target OJ Mayo over a guy like Gordon... at least Mayo can play a little PG for you... Gordon's pretty much Toney Douglas w/o the defense... & Rip is too temperamental for my taste... he gets kicked out of games when he doesn't get the calls... i think it's happened a few times in games vs. the Knicks in the past... would hate to see that happen in a big game we have to win.

other than Melo this summer, the other main name is Marc Gasol, but i personally don't see how he's a good fit next to Amare playing in SSOL system... Amare needs spacing down low to be effective, & so does Gasol... & MDA is not exactly fond of big lumbering C's in his system, he prefers the smaller, more athletic lineups.

as for 2012-13 potential FA's, i think that's way too far to look down the road to even consider at this point... & concerning guys like CP3, Deron & Dwight Howard, i think the best possible way to lure guys like that to NY down the road is to go out & get someone like Melo now... that gives u a major asset to offer up in a trade should those teams be open to dealing them down the road... or at the very least you give them a much more attractive team to come to should they decide to opt to hit the free agency market.

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:i think martin's suggestions of both Nene & Pietrus are definitely role players i would consider as fill in options... i would also targei sugt guys like Camby, Varejao, Okafor, Jerebko, Kirilenko, Tayshaun, Barbosa & Raja Bell... i love the idea of adding a guy like Kevin Martin too but not sure why Houston would wanna deal him to us.

just so I understand correctly, those other guys you mention - Camby, Varejao, Okafor, Jerebko, Kirilenko, Tayshaun, Barbosa & Raja Bell - they are all role players too, right? And all under contract? Except maybe Kirilenko, who is quite useless when you have Chandler, Gallo?

The 3 guys I have targeted - Nene, Peitrus, Rinour - they are indeed role players, but high level ones. All starters on other teams, all playoff tested.

those are guys i suggest as fillin options just like yours... not as my ideal plan B if we miss out on Melo... whether we get guys like that or not, i still think this team needs to add another star (& Jerebko is a RFA this summer... i believe Tayshaun is an UFA this summer)

tj23 wrote:

martin wrote:ADDENDUM TO PLAN B.

I think most of you have gotten that I am not the biggest Melo fan, and it has to do with his cost. He would be on the same and biggest pay scale as Amare and no way is he anywhere near Amare. And Melo would be eating more cap space than LeBron and Wade, both 2-way players who have proven their worth. And Melo ain't a elite all-around player IMHO, elite scorer YES.

YOU WANT SUPERSTARS?

Howard become available in 2012 because he wants either LA Lakers or Knicks? Trade Nene, Chandler, multiple #1's (Lakers have same deal starting with Gasol). Orlando does it cause they can fill 2 holes and at least comes away with players.

CP3 or Deron want out in 2012? Felton, Fields.

DW has built a team maximizing his assets and at the same time keeping his flexibility.

I get that 22 mill is a ridiculous number assuming Melo signs denvers extension, but Nene for 12 million is basically just as bad, no?

what's the going rate for competent C's with muscle?

OK4, Chandler, Horford, Dalembert... some of those guys obviously overpaid, but you also have to give a little to get. Maybe you can sign him long term starting at $10M?

Who else is there out there that you would want to start next to Amare and can go deep playoffs with team?

I mention this because I think in the event Melo isn't in the cards our priority has to be Iggy or some deal out of left field for another star. Now is the time. We've got a lot of value to offer and an opportunity to take our roster to the next level wont be as good until 2012. We have to build a team that can compete with Miami, Orlando, Boston, etc. before then. We can't count on adding role players and thinking it'll make us better than teams that have studs all over their roster.

tj23 wrote:Would any teams really pay 12 mill for a guy like Dalembert? I understand he makes that right now but i seriously doubt he would get a contract like that again. Same with Okafor. Gortat just recently got paid and he got around 6-7 mill right? We need to find a guy like that. I dont think Donnie's plan was to clear out all this cap space so he can overpay for a center like these other teams did. Teams like the hornets are trying to get rid of those contracts like Okafor's.

If Dalembert continues to put up middling stats, and doesn't get traded from SAC before the deadline (you know the Kings won't look to resign him), there is a very good chance we can nab him for just the MLE, similar to what Haywood got. If Dalembert gets traded though, there's the chance that his new home team will look to retain him, and can obviously offer more than the MLE.

IMO, Plan A should be to acquire Melo at minimal cost, and swap an expiring + AR (or TD) for Ridnour. Then go after a center like Dalembert with the MLE. If Dalembert is off the market, we should see if we can work a S&T with Wilson Chandler to get us Camby or Nene (probably would need a 3-team trade). We'd lose some depth if we give up Chandler, which is why I proposed in a separate thread we take back Al Harrington in a Melo trade (and taking on his contract for 'Buike's expiring would allow us to pull some assets off the table)

If Melo signs elsewhere, plan B should be to go after 2-year/expiring contracts to keep us as players for 2012 FA. I know no one likes to still be "starphucking" all the way till 2012, but all three of CP3, Deron Williams, and Dwight Howard would be bigger catches than Melo in my eyes, and it would be shortsighted to lock ourselves into Iggy's deal. Iguodala isn't going to put us over the top. Good options to acquire would be Camby or Nene, and I'd consider S&T'ing Chandler as well, cause he'll get us good return (2012 draft picks especially). Mayo would be nice, but the problem in my eyes is that he too is a RFA in 2012, and we already have a lot on our plate with Gallo and Fields for that summer.

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:After tree million threads on it, I still don't get all the negativity aimed at Melo. He is a bad defender (except when he wants to be good) and may not be the best character guy but he does what he does better than ANYBODY in the league RIGHT NOW. Now we cant give up three starters for him because then we wont have a team to put on the floor, but he should remain our primary target.

loweyecue,

Unfortunately, too many people have bought into the idea that Melo is somehow not an upgrade over Wilson & Gallo because he hasn't been able to carry his team to the NBA Finals. So your suggestion is doomed to failure in their tests.

I, on the other hand think he is a clear upgrade, I think Amare and Melo will make each other better. Also if Amare is out, then Melo assures you that an established & consistent scoring threat is on the floor at all times. If you can get Melo while keeping at least 1 of our top young players, that lineup will improve our team while upgrading our core significantly, & you will also have the ability to fill other holes using the salary exceptions this summer to bring role players to fill the other holes like some of the ones being discussed on this thread.

just messin' w/ya rvwink

i have heard crickets on this post.

martin wrote:Let's say Melo costs the Knicks Gallo, AR, Curry, TD. Not too unfair an assumption.

Can someone tell me how the Knicks come up with role players, bench, second PG and protection for Amare? Note that you will only have the MLE every other year.

Turiaf	 $4,360,000 
Amare	 $18,217,705 
Melo	 $18,500,000 
Fields	 $788,872 
Felton	 $7,560,000 
Moz	 $3,343,896 
Chandler $6,300,000 
Rautins  $788,872 
Williams $788,872 
----------------------------
	 $60,648,217

put some real players and numbers and ideas if you think it's possible. I don't.

Also note that Miami is in the same situation and will be competing against you for players: Amare + Melo + Felton is not better than LeBron + Bosh + Wade EVER especially if both teams are capped out.

NY trades: Gallo, AR, TD, Curry, 'Buike, Mason
NY receives: Melo, Harrington, Ridnour

Denver trades: Melo, Harrington
Denver receives: Gallo, TD, Curry, 'Buike, Utah's 2011 1st rd pick

Minny trades: Ridnour, Utah's 2011 1st rd pick
Minny receives: AR, Mason

Sign Dalembert for MLE. If he can't be had, S&T Chandler for draft picks + a TPE or young players + expirings. Parlay those assets in a Camby or Nene trade.

Scenario 2 leaves us with:

Camby
Amare
Melo
Fields
Felton

Ridnour
Harrington
Mozgov
Williams/Walker

off the bench.

scoshin wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

loweyecue wrote:After tree million threads on it, I still don't get all the negativity aimed at Melo. He is a bad defender (except when he wants to be good) and may not be the best character guy but he does what he does better than ANYBODY in the league RIGHT NOW. Now we cant give up three starters for him because then we wont have a team to put on the floor, but he should remain our primary target.

loweyecue,

Unfortunately, too many people have bought into the idea that Melo is somehow not an upgrade over Wilson & Gallo because he hasn't been able to carry his team to the NBA Finals. So your suggestion is doomed to failure in their tests.

I, on the other hand think he is a clear upgrade, I think Amare and Melo will make each other better. Also if Amare is out, then Melo assures you that an established & consistent scoring threat is on the floor at all times. If you can get Melo while keeping at least 1 of our top young players, that lineup will improve our team while upgrading our core significantly, & you will also have the ability to fill other holes using the salary exceptions this summer to bring role players to fill the other holes like some of the ones being discussed on this thread.

just messin' w/ya rvwink

i have heard crickets on this post.

martin wrote:Let's say Melo costs the Knicks Gallo, AR, Curry, TD. Not too unfair an assumption.

Can someone tell me how the Knicks come up with role players, bench, second PG and protection for Amare? Note that you will only have the MLE every other year.

Turiaf	 $4,360,000 
Amare	 $18,217,705 
Melo	 $18,500,000 
Fields	 $788,872 
Felton	 $7,560,000 
Moz	 $3,343,896 
Chandler $6,300,000 
Rautins  $788,872 
Williams $788,872 
----------------------------
	 $60,648,217

put some real players and numbers and ideas if you think it's possible. I don't.

Also note that Miami is in the same situation and will be competing against you for players: Amare + Melo + Felton is not better than LeBron + Bosh + Wade EVER especially if both teams are capped out.

NY trades: Gallo, AR, TD, Curry, 'Buike, Mason
NY receives: Melo, Harrington, Ridnour

Denver trades: Melo, Harrington
Denver receives: Gallo, TD, Curry, 'Buike, Utah's 2011 1st rd pick

Minny trades: Ridnour, Utah's 2011 1st rd pick
Minny receives: AR, Mason

Sign Dalembert for MLE. If he can't be had, S&T Chandler for draft picks + a TPE or young players + expirings. Parlay those assets in a Camby or Nene trade.

Scenario 2 leaves us with:

Camby
Amare
Melo
Fields
Felton

Ridnour
Harrington
Mozgov
Williams/Walker

off the bench.

doesn't work salary wise. Just can't do it.

Plus, Ridnour + Utah's 2011 1st rd pick is not getting traded for AR. Not realistic.