TMS wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:I know this a little off topic, but it looks like Lee is having a bit of a down yearwith the Warriors. Anyone here watch enough Warriors games to be able to say why? I have feeling that their guards--as great as they are--aren't getting the rest the team involved as much as they should.

it's because the Warriors don't focus their offense around him like we did in NY... they have 2 talented G's who can put up 30 on any given night that carry the offense & Lee is in more of a supplementary role.

Lee has also been playing hurt.

He's not going to score as much and probably won't be as efficient in that offense because he won't get as many assisted shots, but he's slowly rounding into form. He should be good for 15 points, 10 rebounds and 3-4 assists.

I should add one thing. For those that noted Lee's poor defense, Amare may be giving us a few extra blocks, but it seems like every single game one of the opposing big men is having his best game of the year so far. IMO Amare is NOT even an average defender. He gives up almost as much as contributes between his mediocre defense and mounting turnovers. IMO he's getting WAY too much credit for the improved record. A lot of it because Felton > Duhon, Fields was an excellent addition, 2010 Chandler > 2009 Chandler, and we've had the weakest schedule in the league so far.

loweyecue wrote:As currently constructed, I would take Turiaf over Lee every time for this team. Yeah yeah, I know Lee went to the "a;ll star" game whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. Turiaf has a real impact on this team with his defense and leadership two things Lee couldn't bring even if his life depended on it. So I think the trade worked just fine.

Lee may never go to the all star game again. He was a coaches pick in an east with injuries and no big men.

Lee sucks. His teams averaged 30 wins a year. Boo!

Finestrg wrote:What I'd like to know is were there any other deals out there for Lee besides the one with GS? I realize Lee could've walked for nothing and it was good to get something for him but this deal hasn't been as good as I hoped ---- Turiaf's been OK (I thought he'd be a little better) but he's been injury-prone and he is on the hook for $4.36M next year, Azu's been hurt all year and may never play for us and AR hasn't been given any opportunity to prove himself here (and might never get it)...Makes me think that maybe we should've taken a different deal if there was one out there..Anyone know? Was there anything else on the table or even being discussed at the time for Lee as he was walking out the door?

In hindsight, the deal was not a great move, but I think we all expected Azu to be healthy by this point and we overestimated Randolph's game, which is still too wild to trust at this point. We probably could have gotten a better deal, but if Randolph turns into a solid 1st round pick, I think you still take the GS deal.

TMS wrote:

ItalianStallion wrote:

TMS wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:I know this a little off topic, but it looks like Lee is having a bit of a down yearwith the Warriors. Anyone here watch enough Warriors games to be able to say why? I have feeling that their guards--as great as they are--aren't getting the rest the team involved as much as they should.

it's because the Warriors don't focus their offense around him like we did in NY... they have 2 talented G's who can put up 30 on any given night that carry the offense & Lee is in more of a supplementary role.

Lee has also been playing hurt.

He's not going to score as much and probably won't be as efficient in that offense because he won't get as many assisted shots, but he's slowly rounding into form. He should be good for 15 points, 10 rebounds and 3-4 assists.

I should add one thing. For those that noted Lee's poor defense, Amare may be giving us a few extra blocks, but it seems like every single game one of the opposing big men is having his best game of the year so far. IMO Amare is NOT even an average defender. He gives up almost as much as contributes between his mediocre defense and mounting turnovers. IMO he's getting WAY too much credit for the improved record. A lot of it because Felton > Duhon, Fields was an excellent addition, 2010 Chandler > 2009 Chandler, and we've had the weakest schedule in the league so far.

actually the Lakers have had the weakest schedule in the league so far, but i don't hear anyone knocking them for it... u can only play the teams on your schedule... i think there's a certain value in beating the teams you're supposed to beat... good teams do that, bad teams don't... when D Lee was here we were a bad team, there's no other way around it... i think we're clearly a good team at this point, well above what most people realistically expected so soon into the season after such a disastrous past few years... the trade of D Lee was an EXCELLENT trade when we made it... the problem is the assets have not been utilized at all... this is the problem we've had for the past couple years, using up the team's assets for players that don't get any run... it's mindboggling.

You are correlating the fact that we were bad with David Lee and the fact that we are better now with Amare when there are a multitude of reasons we are better now . As I said, Felton has been a massive upgrade over Duhon, Fields has been a massive upgrade over our variety of SGs, Chandler is playing much better, and Gallo is playing a little better. If we still had Lee we would not be much worse right now even though the fans and the media are incorrectly giving all the credit to Amare.

I liked the assets we got in the Lee trade initially, but I didn't realize the extent of Azubuike's injury at the time. I thought he was going to be able to play at the start of the season or soon after. The Knicks probably knew better (or should have). I may be the last person in NY left that thinks Randolph has the potential to be a high level all star. But this is one of D'Antoni's quirks (that I hate). It's all or nothing with him instead of using and developing players selectively when it makes sense to play them. He wasted a month on Mozgov when it was clear he was useless, but he won't give AR minutes even though it's obvious he can be a very good player just based on what he did in GS over two years. And I'm sure if we knew the real reason it would be as retarded as some of the reasons he had last year for not playing players that could help.

I'm happy with Turiaf, but he also clearly still has some probably permanent knee issues. The Knicks should have know that too.

The reason no one is ragging on the Lakers for their easy schedule is that they have a much better record than us and the team is more proven, but I can assure you people are aware of it.

If the Knicks had just an average schedule, they would probably be a hair under .500 right now.

ItalianStallion wrote:You are correlating the fact that we were bad with David Lee and the fact that we are better now with Amare when there are a multitude of reasons we are better now . As I said, Felton has been a massive upgrade over Duhon, Fields has been a massive upgrade over our variety of SGs, Chandler is playing much better, and Gallo is playing a little better. If we still had Lee we would not be much worse right now even though the fans and the media are incorrectly giving all the credit to Amare.

I liked the assets we got in the Lee trade initially, but I didn't realize the extent of Azubuike's injury at the time. I thought he was going to be able to play at the start of the season or soon after. The Knicks probably knew better (or should have). I may be the last person in NY left that thinks Randolph has the potential to be a high level all star. But this is one of D'Antoni's quirks (that I hate). It's all or nothing with him instead of using and developing players selectively when it makes sense to play them. He wasted a month on Mozgov when it was clear he was useless, but he won't give AR minutes even though it's obvious he can be a very good player just based on what he did in GS over two years. And I'm sure if we knew the real reason it would be as retarded as some of the reasons he had last year for not playing players that could help.

I'm happy with Turiaf, but he also clearly still has some probably permanent knee issues. The Knicks should have know that too.

The reason no one is ragging on the Lakers for their easy schedule is that they have a much better record than us and the team is more proven, but I can assure you people are aware of it.

If the Knicks had just an average schedule, they would probably be a hair under .500 right now.

italian stallion with the boomshakalaka post! i agree with 92.4% of this post!

TMS wrote:

ItalianStallion wrote:You are correlating the fact that we were bad with David Lee and the fact that we are better now with Amare when there are a multitude of reasons we are better now . As I said, Felton has been a massive upgrade over Duhon, Fields has been a massive upgrade over our variety of SGs, Chandler is playing much better, and Gallo is playing a little better. If we still had Lee we would not be much worse right now even though the fans and the media are incorrectly giving all the credit to Amare.

couldn't disagree with you more on the David Lee/Amare point... i think Amare's presence, leadership & production on the court have proven to be head & shoulders above anything D Lee ever provided us in his time as a Knick... i liked him as a player but let's be real about it... having him as a central part of our offense got us to 29 wins last year... the addition of Ray Felton has also played a big part in our recent success, i will agree w/u on that point, but u can also say that Amare's presence has made the game much easier for guys like Wilson & Gallo this season & has played a big part in their percieved improvement as well... i don't blame the entire season last year on David Lee, but he played a big part in it, u have to concede that much... he was the featured player in the offense all of last year & still couldn't draw the types of double teams that Amare's doing now while still producing at a higher level... that tells you a lot of the kind of respect that teams have for a player of Amare's ability as compared to David Lee.

I liked the assets we got in the Lee trade initially, but I didn't realize the extent of Azubuike's injury at the time. I thought he was going to be able to play at the start of the season or soon after. The Knicks probably knew better (or should have). I may be the last person in NY left that thinks Randolph has the potential to be a high level all star. But this is on one D'Antoni's quirks (that I hate). It's all or nothing with him instead of using and developing players selectively when it makes sense to play them. He wasted a month on Mozgov when it was clear he was useless, but he won't give AR minutes even though it's obvious he can be a very good player just based on what he did in GS over two years. And I'm sure if we knew the real reason it would be as retarded as some of the reasons he had last year for not playing players that could help.

on this point i agree w/u completely... i think we made a good trade, but our lack of use of the main asset we gained in that trade has degraded any type of real value we got back.

No doubt Amare has been a better leader, but part of that is also that we got rid of the dimwits like Harrington, Robinson etc... that could not be lead and definitely wouldn't be lead by a guy like Lee that they resented.

Like I keep saying, IMO you are overestimating the level of extra production that Amare is giving us now because you are focusing on his scoring (the thing that Amare is clearly a lot better at), without giving due consideration to all the things he's not as good at like rebounding, play making/assists, avoiding turnovers, handling the ball and running a break etc...

Put a gun to me head and I want Amare, but IMO the reason we are a lot better has a lot more to do with Felton over Duhon and Fields over any of our former SGs than Amare over Lee. We'll have to agree to disagree.

ItalianStallion wrote:

TMS wrote:

ItalianStallion wrote:You are correlating the fact that we were bad with David Lee and the fact that we are better now with Amare when there are a multitude of reasons we are better now . As I said, Felton has been a massive upgrade over Duhon, Fields has been a massive upgrade over our variety of SGs, Chandler is playing much better, and Gallo is playing a little better. If we still had Lee we would not be much worse right now even though the fans and the media are incorrectly giving all the credit to Amare.

couldn't disagree with you more on the David Lee/Amare point... i think Amare's presence, leadership & production on the court have proven to be head & shoulders above anything D Lee ever provided us in his time as a Knick... i liked him as a player but let's be real about it... having him as a central part of our offense got us to 29 wins last year... the addition of Ray Felton has also played a big part in our recent success, i will agree w/u on that point, but u can also say that Amare's presence has made the game much easier for guys like Wilson & Gallo this season & has played a big part in their percieved improvement as well... i don't blame the entire season last year on David Lee, but he played a big part in it, u have to concede that much... he was the featured player in the offense all of last year & still couldn't draw the types of double teams that Amare's doing now while still producing at a higher level... that tells you a lot of the kind of respect that teams have for a player of Amare's ability as compared to David Lee.

I liked the assets we got in the Lee trade initially, but I didn't realize the extent of Azubuike's injury at the time. I thought he was going to be able to play at the start of the season or soon after. The Knicks probably knew better (or should have). I may be the last person in NY left that thinks Randolph has the potential to be a high level all star. But this is on one D'Antoni's quirks (that I hate). It's all or nothing with him instead of using and developing players selectively when it makes sense to play them. He wasted a month on Mozgov when it was clear he was useless, but he won't give AR minutes even though it's obvious he can be a very good player just based on what he did in GS over two years. And I'm sure if we knew the real reason it would be as retarded as some of the reasons he had last year for not playing players that could help.

on this point i agree w/u completely... i think we made a good trade, but our lack of use of the main asset we gained in that trade has degraded any type of real value we got back.

No doubt Amare has been a better leader, but part of that is also that we got rid of the dimwits like Harrington, Robinson etc... that could not be lead and definitely wouldn't be lead by a guy like Lee that they resented.

Like I keep saying, IMO you are overestimating the level of extra production that Amare is giving us now because you are focusing on his scoring (the thing that Amare is clearly a lot better at), without giving due consideration to all the things he's not as good at like rebounding, play making/assists, avoiding turnovers, handling the ball and running a break etc...

Put a gun to me head and I want Amare, but IMO the reason we are a lot better has a lot more to do with Felton over Duhon and Fields over any of our former SGs than Amare over Lee. We'll have to agree to disagree.

actually i'm putting my main focus on a lot more than just Amare's scoring... i've already pointed out the intangibles of leadership & the fact that other teams have to actively gameplan to try & stop him anytime we play them that makes him all that much more valuable & more of an impact player than David Lee ever was.

as for not being as good at rebounding & the other stuff, he's averaging 2 less rebounds a night but also putting up 7 more points in offense along with 2 blocks a night... the trade off there has been huge... Amare is a viable imposing shotblocking presence inside, something David Lee never was... Amare is also definitely no slouch running the break... i don't see any dropoff there at all.... Lee is a better passer than Amare & a better rebounder, but Amare has a much more well rounded game, brings more intangibles & he's a beast to defend... w/o Amare here no one's even talking about Ray Felton because we'd still be a crappy team, with David Lee or without him.