TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

cheers wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

martin wrote:

But Walsh quickly ruined that by continuing his thought, supporting Mike D'Antoni's decision to stick to a limited rotation during the last four weeks.

"We've played a short rotation and understandably so, because we're trying to win games," Walsh said. "We started off 3-8 and went to a short rotation and it worked."

Another conspiracy theory bites the dust.

alan hahn got the perfect quote, perfect. then he goes and ruins it, what is he tryn to be a good journalist that bastid!

That is still a strong statement from Walsh. I think he feels the guys he brought in can play and that some should be playing. He takes a hands off approach and has been loyal and protected D'Antoni without question. At some point he might get a bit frustrated that big acquisitions like lottery picks and the guy he thought might be one of the best players in the 08 draft can't get minutes.

i agree, it has to be frustrating for him as a GM to see some of the players he goes out & gets wasting away on the bench not even seeing playing time, especially when he's trying to evaluate these guys to determine what kinds of moves need to be made in the future to fill needs on this team... i think there is an obvious disparity in certain cases between him & MDA as to the types of players that each prefers... as a GM when he glances at the boxscores for teams that now have some of the players he acquired to run in this system & sees guys like Darko Milicic putting up 23/16/6, 22/8/5 & 25/11/4 statlines on some nights, or Jordan Hill putting up 14/6/2, 14/10, 12/7, 9/9/4 type stats off the bench, it has to leave him scratching his head why these guys were never able to see regular minutes playing when we had them here, especially during a season where we really had nothing else to really play for other than to evaluate talent... if AR never gets a run in NY & Donnie is forced to trade him to another team & he starts putting up #'s there, i don't see any way it wouldn't bother him.

I don't get this, when does cherry picking stat lines constitute an argument?

If I picked out Milicic's 3 worst games and Hill's 4 worst as well to show MDA SHOULDN'T have played those guys, does that hold as much argumentative weight? If not, what's the difference?

Since Darko arrived in Twolve land, they are a collective 8-47. Not all his fault but seems to me he isn't having a positive impact.

only MDA knows the reason for why he didn't play those guys... i'm not debating that on this thread... the argument is that as a GM who brought those guys in, it might leave you scratching your head when you see them put up statlines like that on other teams when they couldn't see the light of day off the bench on yours... DW used a #8 lottery pick on Jordan Hill because he obviously saw big potential in him... then MDA hardly ever plays him & he ends up becoming a filler in a cap dump & goes on to become a viable rotation player on another squad... do u really think this doesn't at least leave DW wondering if things could have worked out for him here if given the opportunity? i do.

DW traded an allstar PF for Anthony Randolph because he obviously sees big potential in him... now he can't see the light of day off MDA's bench... if Walsh ends up trading AR away because he can't find a role here & he then goes on to put up some #'s off the bench on other teams, u don't think that would leave him wondering what might have been if they had at least gotten playing time here? we are talking about a kid that put up 12/7/2 last year in only 23 mpg... those are pretty good #'s for any bench player i don't care what team you're playing on... when you're using up your franchise's assets to bring players in & they get no run, it has to bother you as a GM, or at least leave you with a ton of questions in your mind as to why they can't see playing time.

Donnie also purchased a 1st round pick to draft Toney Douglas & he could hardly get off the bench until late in the season when he started to travel with the team to evaluate players & see for himself what was going on that was causing all these DNP-CD's... that's when MDA put Jordan & Toney back into the rotation, probably more to appease the GM & not out of any desire to do so... to me, this shows a disparity between their philosophies in terms of the player acquisitions being made at certain times... it may speak to a lack of communication between the 2 or maybe not, but i do think that has to be a reason for some concern... these guys need to get on the same page & stop wasting the franchise's assets to bring in players that don't get any playing time... Toney Douglas to his credit has been able to stick it out & remain a part of MDA's rotation, but he could just as easily have been included as filler in that Fishlips trade last year & become a contributor for their team as well... it's not like his value was all that high after having spent most of the season collecting DNP's.

Darko is averaging 9.3 and 5.6; Hill is at 6.8 and 4.3

Darko is averaging that in 25 mpg while also contributing 2.5 blocks & 2 assists a night... Hill is putting up his statline in 17.7 mpg & shooting over 50% on the season... meanwhile we're talking about the concern that Amare will burn out & eventually break down because of MDA's use of a short rotation, & currently our 2 frontcourt bench players are:

Ronny Turiaf averaging 4.1 and 2.9 w/1.3 blk in 19 mpg with 7 missed games already due to injury... in the time he has played, he has done a solid job, but even he is performing at his career lows in all 3 categories in relation to minutes played

Timofey Mozgov averaging 2.4 and 2.1 w/0.7 blk in 10.8 mpg while shooting an alarming 37% on the season

right now Timo isn't even close to producing on Darko's level in any aspect of the game, & Jordan Hill is outperforming Ronny statswise while playing the same role, but Ronny brings superior defense & intangibles so this is a pretty fair trade off... still, u have to wonder if DW still feels that Jordan Hill can be much more considering he did take him very high in the draft, whereas Turiaf has already topped out. (btw, i'm not lamenting the fact that we lost Jordan Hill here, just raising potential thoughts that might cross a DW's head when he sees his former players producing on other teams)... i also don't think it's a stretch to think DW might still view Darko as a guy who could have helped this team in a role off the bench considering the job he's doing in Minnesota... personally i think either one of those guys would have been infinitely better than anything we've gotten out of Timo this year.

I dont disagree about Darko, but to be fair, didn't Darko say that 'it was his own fault for not getting time in NY because he didn't put in the effort' or something to that affect?

TMS wrote:yes, Darko admitted his attitude sucked last year... he also said that a big part of it was due to the fact he knew he would get no playing time here & he became disillusioned w/his situation on this team, which led to him not putting forth an effort in practice... i don't think he came in with a horrible attitude until he figured out he wouldn't get much of an opportunity to play... i think he came in with honest intentions when DW acquired him, but things didn't work out for 1 reason or another... of course he deserves fault for not being a professional & working hard despite the situation, but i believe MDA played a role here as well... when a guy like Fishlips is collecting 35+ minutes while you can't get off the end of the bench, it pretty much tells you what your role is gonna be going forward.

lets not forget darko was a new father, jeez he was human, sry mda i know you like robots.

cheers wrote:

TMS wrote:yes, Darko admitted his attitude sucked last year... he also said that a big part of it was due to the fact he knew he would get no playing time here & he became disillusioned w/his situation on this team, which led to him not putting forth an effort in practice... i don't think he came in with a horrible attitude until he figured out he wouldn't get much of an opportunity to play... i think he came in with honest intentions when DW acquired him, but things didn't work out for 1 reason or another... of course he deserves fault for not being a professional & working hard despite the situation, but i believe MDA played a role here as well... when a guy like Fishlips is collecting 35+ minutes while you can't get off the end of the bench, it pretty much tells you what your role is gonna be going forward.

lets not forget darko was a new father, jeez he was human, sry mda i know you like robots.

All the time I had kids come into my program, do nothing right for weeks. Have me kill them everyday for weeks. Playing time is a non issue because they aren't going to get it. They bust their balls to prove me wrong and a week or two or a month or a year later they are my pet. Then I have other kids that are treated the same way, cry and moan, quit and guess what? They stay in the dog house. That's sports. Darko was in category two. He had no idea if he was really going to get time or not. He decided he wasn't and it clearly became a self-fullfilling prophecy.

cheers wrote:http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/lack-of-depth-tiring-to-knicks-starters-1.2556049

All this talk about a lack of depth on the roster Donnie Walsh has built has the Knicks' president a bit defensive.
"All the depth hasn't played, so you don't know," he said.

its on now sukka!

if that is not a clear message from don godfather donnie to mike the bullheaded d'antoni. then im just not using enough italian stereotypes to get my point across.

I do think its a message as well. This is about as direct as Walsh will get.

He's basically saying that we have talent on the bench - the coach just isn't playing them. I mean - Mike needs to give a guy like AR more minutes to prove he sucks. With more minutes guys relax and play better - simple as that. Same with Moz --- why take him out if he gets 2 quick fouls --- if your just going to put him on the bench all night why not just leave him in and see if he fouls out. What's the difference?

I'm frustrtated because I really do believe he's burning out Amare and Felton -- not to mention kids like Fields playing very high minutes for a rookie and Gallo (really only 2nd year) putting up big minutes every night.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:yes, Darko admitted his attitude sucked last year... he also said that a big part of it was due to the fact he knew he would get no playing time here & he became disillusioned w/his situation on this team, which led to him not putting forth an effort in practice... i don't think he came in with a horrible attitude until he figured out he wouldn't get much of an opportunity to play... i think he came in with honest intentions when DW acquired him, but things didn't work out for 1 reason or another... of course he deserves fault for not being a professional & working hard despite the situation, but i believe MDA played a role here as well... when a guy like Fishlips is collecting 35+ minutes while you can't get off the end of the bench, it pretty much tells you what your role is gonna be going forward.

How did he know he wasn't going to get playing time. That's the question. Is this reality or did it just become a self fulfilling prophecy.

maybe there was a lack of communication? u know sometimes u get the feeling from some people w/o them even having to say a word that they don't want you there... maybe that's what went down behind the scenes... i'm just putting it out there as a possibility... who knows what really went on... maybe Darko phcuked MDA's daughter in the mouth & the relationship fizzled... all i know is Darko said his poor attitude was a result of him coming to the conclusion that he would not have the role he thought he would when DW acquired him:

While D'Antoni used mostly backups in the fourth, Minnesota had three starters on the floor to conclude the game, including Ridnour and former Knick Darko Milicic. Beforehand, Milicic ventured toward the Knicks' bench and made peace with D'Antoni. Milicic accepted responsibility for not working hard enough once he fell out of favor with the team last season and apologized to D'Antoni and his brother, assistant coach Dan D'Antoni.

"I said 'It didn't work out,'" Milicic said. "I wished it worked out. I loved New York. I thought it was going to work out but when I got there and saw how it was going to be it wasn't for me. For me, last year I needed a lot of playing time to get my confidence back. Here it's different, this year I came in shape."

"I tell (Mozgov) to do the opposite like I did," Milicic said. "I don't know how it will be for him, if he plays a lot. When I didn't play, I stepped aside. You need to work a lot and I didn't do it. If he doesn't play, practice hard."

Milicic clearly owned up to his own lack of work ethic, but he also attached that to the clear caveat of the situation he found himself in as the main cause for him becoming disillusioned.

Not for nothing TMS, but you are so clearly wrong on this issue. Darko was given clear info on what Mike expected of him and he came in out of shape, which puts you in a hole automatically in Mike's system. Donnie and Mike let him stay with his family, but made it clear he needed to be working out so as not to be too far behind in his conditioning. Darko didn't hold up his end of the bargain! That's just the 1st mistake.

He then didn't impress and clearly pouted and assumed that he was never going to get a shot, which was NEVER stated to him. He just assumed that Mike was gonna do him like his previous coaches. That was all on Darko. He said he basically shut it down and that's NEVER going to work with any coach. Mike wants to see a player bust it in practice and i'm 1000% positive that he and his coaching staff made that clear to all the players. Mike is the one running the show and it's his Camp and his practice court. The players don't run jack. If they want to play they have to do what he says. Darko's fault 100%.

how do you know it was never stated to him that he'd get a shot? just curious... i've already conceded that it was mainly Darko's fault for having a bad attitude & not working hard, but from his own words there was a caveat attached as to the cause... now u can go ahead & make assumptions about what went on behind the scenes... i'm just going off his words... he said he thought it was going to work out in NY & wanted to make it work, but once he got here & saw how things were gonna be, he decided it wasn't for him... those are his words, not my own interpretations or assumptions... how am i wrong?

LivingLegend wrote:

cheers wrote:http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/lack-of-depth-tiring-to-knicks-starters-1.2556049

All this talk about a lack of depth on the roster Donnie Walsh has built has the Knicks' president a bit defensive.
"All the depth hasn't played, so you don't know," he said.

its on now sukka!

if that is not a clear message from don godfather donnie to mike the bullheaded d'antoni. then im just not using enough italian stereotypes to get my point across.

I do think its a message as well. This is about as direct as Walsh will get.

He's basically saying that we have talent on the bench - the coach just isn't playing them. I mean - Mike needs to give a guy like AR more minutes to prove he sucks. With more minutes guys relax and play better - simple as that. Same with Moz --- why take him out if he gets 2 quick fouls --- if your just going to put him on the bench all night why not just leave him in and see if he fouls out. What's the difference?

I'm frustrtated because I really do believe he's burning out Amare and Felton -- not to mention kids like Fields playing very high minutes for a rookie and Gallo (really only 2nd year) putting up big minutes every night.

Okay, then fans have to be fair to the coach. They can't call for his firing if those bench players suck for a while. You can't have it both ways. You can't have the coach play poor performing guys through mistakes and blown leads and then turn around and call for his head when those blown leads hurt us in the loss column