PresIke wrote:

Uptown wrote:Amare shouldnt be playing 42 mins per but lets be clear, our bench is garbage. You guys act like the bench didn't get a shot at all. Mason couldn't make a shot, Walker is a plodder who does nothing but make an occasional 3, Randolph was lost, and Moz clearly wasnt ready. The bench help we need is on our becnh yet.

i believe you mean "isn't on our bench", but basically, i agree.

Yes, thanks for the catch. Thats why happens when you type in a hurry....

BlueSeats wrote:It's not that we need a 10 man rotation, it's that the two guys we need the most from, Douglas and Turiaf (to Spell Felton/Amare), are banged up and unable to give quality minutes.

We could do fine with an 8 or 9 man rotation if they were all healthy.

shawne, ar, walker, timo, rather then being practice dummies should get playing time. if ny is relying on toney and turiaf (when healthy) no reason not to rely on the players first mentioned.. it is not that big of a talent drop.

nyk4ever wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

has turned out to be a pretty damn stubborn coach. last year we had nate, jordan hill, and darko all sitting on the bench while hired guns who for sure wouldn't be on the team the next year (larry hughes, al harrington, et al) inexplicably played big minutes. say what you want about those guys, but nate is contributing on a team that has championship aspirations while we have felton playing 40+ a night because we don't have a backup PG. darko and hill, whatever, they are duds but why weren't they playing AT ALL last year? hill especially, you take him 8th overall on a team that is so deprived of any talent and then he racks up like 40 DNP-CDs before getting dealt in a salary cap move. what is that about?

I agree and I thought your whole post was right on. However, in regards to Darko and Hill they actually are having pretty good seasons. Darko is leading the league in blocks and was mentioned as a darkhorse canidate for most improved player this year in an article I read yesterday. Hill is a rotation player but had a big game today with 9 pts, 9rebs, and 4 blocks. Those guys could have helped last year and Walsh used assets to get them because he thought they would help.

dude darko himself said he didn't try at all here. if the player isn't trying why is the coach going to play him?

Darko gave up because he knew he wasn't playing for D'Antoni no matter what.

cheers wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:It's not that we need a 10 man rotation, it's that the two guys we need the most from, Douglas and Turiaf (to Spell Felton/Amare), are banged up and unable to give quality minutes.

We could do fine with an 8 or 9 man rotation if they were all healthy.

shawne, ar, walker, timo, rather then being practice dummies should get playing time. if ny is relying on toney and turiaf (when healthy) no reason not to rely on the players first mentioned.. it is not that big of a talent drop.

williams got minutes...struggled after a nice start...but i think may continue to play more as long as he performs.

i am still not hearing from you a good case for playing ar, walker or mozgov.

ny is relying on toney and turiaf because they are the only close to legit backups for felton and amar'e.

walker is out because he doesn't even play either position, and we are getting more from williams.

and i fail to see -- at least in my observation -- how we can rely on mozgov or ar to spell amar'e and have faith they won't make plays that really hurt the team.

turiaf's talent may not be high, but he won't make bad plays, and in fact will help on d and on the boards. but even when he's on the floor it hurts our offense, which is why it is really disappointing that mozgov hasn't been able to show us what he did in pre-season. however, he's young, yet while mozgov blocks shots, he does't board, and makes some poor decisions, despite pretty good court vision.

as for randolph, you only have to look at BRIGGS, his biggest champion, and his attitude towards randolph to see how he is not cutting it. so, then we play him more? why, because we're desperate in december to lower amar'e's minutes? i think walsh will make a deal to address this before the deadline, so amar'e, as hard a pill as this may be to swallow, is going to have to hold the fort until either then, or randolph, or mozgov prove otherwise...in practice.

however, practice is not the same as games...and it would be fair to say that mda -- like many coaches before him -- have been hesitant to use practice, primarily, as a way to judge players. i think you have to do it so much, as williams' did, that it is hard for him to not play you. the knicks are worried about losing, as is mda, since his ass is on the line this year, so it may be both players don't come in until they prove themselves for a long time.

that's why i think we'll make a deal to give mda guys that can do the job on the court.

cheers wrote:

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Uptown wrote:Amare shouldnt be playing 42 mins per but lets be clear, our bench is garbage. You guys act like the bench didn't get a shot at all. Mason couldn't make a shot, Walker is a plodder who does nothing but make an occasional 3, Randolph was lost, and Moz clearly wasnt ready. The bench help we need is on our becnh yet.

Most here were talking about how deep our bench was.

Walker produced last year, did look lost in SL, and had some flashes this year- now is benched.

Randolph has produced at this level, was hurt last year, and should be able to contribute something in limited minutes.

Moz is certainly a project, but did seem to have his moments, especially on defense.

Nevermind what Bill Walker did in meaningless minutes last year when our season was over. Walker hasn't done much of anything this year while Shawne Williams has looked much better in the limited time he's gotten and has deservedly replaced him in the rotation.

Randolph is a youtube allstar and hasn't shown much either. Not sure whats going on in practice but he did look pretty bad in his first few games here. I will admit that he should get another crack and hopefully soon.

Moz has just looked terrible to me. Way more bad moments than good. He was having trouble just catching the ball. He definitely needs to sit.

reason why i dont get this p.ov. it runs on the premise we dont need walker/randolph/timo, that we have the luxury of sitting them. we dont.

we need walker, shawne, ar, timo, td, walker all in the rotation. i like the way celtics have been winning close. they know they are banged up so they all about keeping the game close, in order to finish with the win. if ny followed doc's plan, and used our bench to stay close even if ny does not have the lead, with the goal of keeping our top five fresh for the finish.. i think that is a winner for the long road to playoffs.

i think you are vastly overrating what most of those players should be expected to give us, given what we saw.

williams, again, i think will get burn.

why walker? who are you taking minutes from that is going to help us? i don't get it.

did you not watch them play for us this year??

they were not good, for any significant stretch.

PresIke wrote:

cheers wrote:

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Uptown wrote:Amare shouldnt be playing 42 mins per but lets be clear, our bench is garbage. You guys act like the bench didn't get a shot at all. Mason couldn't make a shot, Walker is a plodder who does nothing but make an occasional 3, Randolph was lost, and Moz clearly wasnt ready. The bench help we need is on our becnh yet.

Most here were talking about how deep our bench was.

Walker produced last year, did look lost in SL, and had some flashes this year- now is benched.

Randolph has produced at this level, was hurt last year, and should be able to contribute something in limited minutes.

Moz is certainly a project, but did seem to have his moments, especially on defense.

Nevermind what Bill Walker did in meaningless minutes last year when our season was over. Walker hasn't done much of anything this year while Shawne Williams has looked much better in the limited time he's gotten and has deservedly replaced him in the rotation.

Randolph is a youtube allstar and hasn't shown much either. Not sure whats going on in practice but he did look pretty bad in his first few games here. I will admit that he should get another crack and hopefully soon.

Moz has just looked terrible to me. Way more bad moments than good. He was having trouble just catching the ball. He definitely needs to sit.

reason why i dont get this p.ov. it runs on the premise we dont need walker/randolph/timo, that we have the luxury of sitting them. we dont.

we need walker, shawne, ar, timo, td, walker all in the rotation. i like the way celtics have been winning close. they know they are banged up so they all about keeping the game close, in order to finish with the win. if ny followed doc's plan, and used our bench to stay close even if ny does not have the lead, with the goal of keeping our top five fresh for the finish.. i think that is a winner for the long road to playoffs.

i think you are vastly overrating what most of those players should be expected to give us, given what we saw.

williams, again, i think will get burn.

why walker? who are you taking minutes from that is going to help us? i don't get it.

did you not watch them play for us this year??

they were not good, for any significant stretch.

i dont need walker to be good for any significant stretch i need walker to be a body on the court just like von wafer was a body on the floor for coach doc during the celtics win.

PresIke wrote:cheer,

you say we don't have the luxury of sitting those guys, but what is the short term benefit for the team with them playing?

i'd say, we are MORE likely to lose games in the short term.

we don't NEED unreliable players to take minutes from amar'e and felton BEFORE THE TRADE DEADLINE.

folks' could consider this last bit into their thinking about this topic.

WHY is it safe to assume that the way minutes are being distributed is a given for the rest of the year? do folks honestly think that the team isn't aware of this concern? if the knicks make no deal, or of one of our bench guys doesn't suddenly step up to help show they are worthy, and it stays the same, then we can revisit this discussion.

i think it's too early to freak out about minutes, when we don't have the luxury of playing unreliable players.

in the short term we have already list three games in a row do to our top five running on empty. again i dont need our bench to be good, i need our bench to be bodies on the court that lets our good players take a short sit to fuel up. so we can be there in the home stretch.

knicks are playing like they are always going for the knockout intead of playing four quarters ball. in boxing and the ufc the guy who trains and fights to go the distance tends to have a better chance at winning.

i was very impressed with coach doc playing four quarters ball and would love for mda to steal what he saw in that game.

CrushAlot wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

has turned out to be a pretty damn stubborn coach. last year we had nate, jordan hill, and darko all sitting on the bench while hired guns who for sure wouldn't be on the team the next year (larry hughes, al harrington, et al) inexplicably played big minutes. say what you want about those guys, but nate is contributing on a team that has championship aspirations while we have felton playing 40+ a night because we don't have a backup PG. darko and hill, whatever, they are duds but why weren't they playing AT ALL last year? hill especially, you take him 8th overall on a team that is so deprived of any talent and then he racks up like 40 DNP-CDs before getting dealt in a salary cap move. what is that about?

I agree and I thought your whole post was right on. However, in regards to Darko and Hill they actually are having pretty good seasons. Darko is leading the league in blocks and was mentioned as a darkhorse canidate for most improved player this year in an article I read yesterday. Hill is a rotation player but had a big game today with 9 pts, 9rebs, and 4 blocks. Those guys could have helped last year and Walsh used assets to get them because he thought they would help.

dude darko himself said he didn't try at all here. if the player isn't trying why is the coach going to play him?

Darko gave up because he knew he wasn't playing for D'Antoni no matter what.

actually darko himself said he showed up out of shape and not ready to play last summer AFTER d'antoni allowed him to stay in europe longer because darko and his wife were expecting a child.

Bippity10 wrote:

cheers wrote:

PresIke wrote:

cheers wrote:

PresIke wrote:
i think you are vastly overrating what most of those players should be expected to give us, given what we saw.

williams, again, i think will get burn.

why walker? who are you taking minutes from that is going to help us? i don't get it.

did you not watch them play for us this year??

they were not good, for any significant stretch.

i dont need walker to be good for any significant stretch i need walker to be a body on the court just like von wafer was a body on the floor for coach doc during the celtics win.

dude, we aren't the celtics. we don't have 3 hof all-stars on our team allow us to put "a body on the court" and have a chance at winning. the same reason nate fits better for them than us.

we ain't that good.

and again, by playing walker how does that help lower minutes from amar'e and felton?

he's a sf/sg.

we have enough guys there.

celtics are lucky mda is NOT their coach, he would have played his top guys to exhaustion. instead of what doc did, use the bench heavy.

celtics are actually in a bad spot with injuries and age, and they have been WINNING. reason why im not giving mda a pass sry.

The season before teh Celtics traded for Garnett and Allen they were looking to fire Doc Rivers. Here is an excerpt from an article written by Bill Simmons regarding the subject.

I found that comment fascinating: Not that Dad wanted to trade Pierce, but his unbiased belief that keeping Doc Rivers gave Boston the best chance at finishing with a high lottery pick. Seriously, what more do you need to know? If we're gunning for Oden next spring, either we could be blatant about this quest, fire Doc and hire Joe the Alcoholic Counter Guy from the Charlestown Store 24 … or we could keep Doc and guarantee six more months of close losses, defensive breakdowns, stagnant offense, convoluted excuses and an NBA coach substituting players every 90 seconds like he's coaching a hockey team.

It's amazing that as his teams have gotten better, his rotations have gotten more predictable. Good players have a way of doing that for coaches.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/061115

honestly i dont get how this has bearing on how coach doc won knicks game.

are you and blob sharing same salvia bong can you pass it, i need a hit!

Bippity10 wrote:Coaches always look great when they have great players, playing well. All their decisions make sense and their rotations are wonderful.

Look at Eric Spoelstra. He went from the coach of teh future, to fired, to coach of the now in 2 short months. We have a crappy bench. The guy is trying to win games. Not sure if Billy Walker and AR is the answer. Now, ultimately he will need to play these guys(or someone we trade for) in order to avoid killing our guys. You and I are in agreement on that. However I'm not of the belief he is as stubborn as we make him out to be. If any of these guys are producing I think they will play.

look bip im all for your uk conquest (pls do not tell A&M) but i draw the line at saying coach doc is having an easy time of it this season, same goes for coach spo. if i was either of these coaches with their situations, i would have been in the fetal position.

coach spo hung tough and came up with a power sharing agreement with his superfriends; that they can do their thizzle as long as times are good, but when times are bad, he will call a time out and draw up plays. coach doc has played i think even the towel boy though i can not prove this, in order to keep his injured and aging team in the hunt for a fourth quarter finish.

big fan of the minutes management of both coaches. i remember commenting on game thread that it sure must be nice to be able to rest two out of three superfriends. mind you coach spo used to (pre player meeting) not do that, he used to mda the superfriends, now he spells them.

nixluva wrote:The biggest issue we have had is the injuries to Turiaf and TD. They've been playing poorly partly due to the nagging injuries. if they were healthy i'm positive Mike would cut Felton n Amar'e Minutes.

i read a poster say that before and um yea that makes about as much sense to me as blob's latest thread.

it is not that far a drop from toney and turiaf and the rest of the bench. play the bench.