Childs2Dudley wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

rvwink wrote:With the pieces we now have, it seems likely that the Knicks will make the playoffs. So what is the upside to bringing in some stop gap rebounder, with the extreme cost of disrupting the development of Mosgov and Randolph as a result. Why is winning a few extra games this season worth disrupting the development of players that D'Antoni in particular thinks can develop into important pieces in his system. In the past Mike has taken players who weren't performing all that well, and they have worked great in his system.

The Knicks improvement is a long term plan. We need to ignore a desire to have the Knicks win every game possible and instead focus on building for the future with excellent pieces that will ultimately be good enough to allow us to compete for a championship. Mosgov doesn't have the necessary experience, but he is blessed with a unique combination of both superior height, and both speed and endurance. Plus he has the beginning of an outside game, and apparently he is a very good learner.

D'Antoni sees all of his players work out and play games. He knows who is making progress and who isn't. What makes you guys think that you know better than him and Donnie Walsh as well?

Oh no no no no defeatist attitude.. If someone tells me why winning a few extra games doesnt mean anything and NOTHING less than an absolute goal of winning it all(its ok to come up short of a goal)Id like to hear the reasoning after I vomit. I DO NOT believe in losing unless rebuilding--EVERY game counts.... I am not giving up one stinking point for Mosgov or Randolph let alone game. The SECOND Amare started playing like an MVP the second Ray Felton upped his game to the upper echelon and the fact that we have 4 outstanding perimeter players that mesh with size the goals change my man---the goals at the start of the season have changed. Let me tell you something if i could turn Mosgov and Randolph into a player like Bogut or if I could even change Randolph into Jason Thompson--I would do it today. I would also use any NON core asset-TD to improve the team NOW including if a deal was that good---giving up FA. I don't think you ever use a defeatist attitude in sports especially when you have atleast a top 5 player in the game on your team. No rvwink Im sorry but youre wrong here.

Right, because having Thabeet or Joe Smith over Mozgov will make a significant difference.

The iSergio handle not working today:) Mosgov is a work in progress. He is 9th or 10th man in a 10 man rotation. He does do some nice things but if I can add a carl landry or a jason thompson to my second unit--I would do it becasue it makes us a better team. Who is better right now Nazr Mohamed or Mosgov? We can use Mosgov for spot moments and my hope is we see 20-25% improvement over the course of the year--but I cant count on that nor does it change our need for another big.

Is their goal to sck? I think they were trying to improve ion last year--looks like they will be worse. How do you improve with an undefined unbalanced roster?

fishmike wrote:Briggs its a fair point. There is right now and there is 3 months from now. Do you listen to what the coaches and team say about Mosgov? Nobody works harder. Thats why he keep getting in games even though at time he struggles. MDA is chicken (he has admitted this point blank) when it somes to playing new guys, yet he keeps running Mos out there. Its very possible what Mos can give you in 50 games has 10x the impact than what Landry can give you. Hell... Chandler can give you what Landry gives you. Thats not really an upgrade.

Being patient is not defeatist, its smart. Being paitent does NOT = tanking the season.

Portland once thought as you did. They just needed a bigger body to help with the playoff run, so they traded for an established and very good banger in Dale Davis. They traded the 10th guy off the bench getting spot minutes who wasnt quite ready to play. That guy was Jermaine Oneil. Those trades always suck. Always.

oh good example

martin wrote:

fishmike wrote:Briggs its a fair point. There is right now and there is 3 months from now. Do you listen to what the coaches and team say about Mosgov? Nobody works harder. Thats why he keep getting in games even though at time he struggles. MDA is chicken (he has admitted this point blank) when it somes to playing new guys, yet he keeps running Mos out there. Its very possible what Mos can give you in 50 games has 10x the impact than what Landry can give you. Hell... Chandler can give you what Landry gives you. Thats not really an upgrade.

Being patient is not defeatist, its smart. Being paitent does NOT = tanking the season.

Portland once thought as you did. They just needed a bigger body to help with the playoff run, so they traded for an established and very good banger in Dale Davis. They traded the 10th guy off the bench getting spot minutes who wasnt quite ready to play. That guy was Jermaine Oneil. Those trades always suck. Always.

oh good example

+1

I don't want to give away Anthony Randolph.

fishmike wrote:Briggs its a fair point. There is right now and there is 3 months from now. Do you listen to what the coaches and team say about Mosgov? Nobody works harder. Thats why he keep getting in games even though at time he struggles. MDA is chicken (he has admitted this point blank) when it somes to playing new guys, yet he keeps running Mos out there. Its very possible what Mos can give you in 50 games has 10x the impact than what Landry can give you. Hell... Chandler can give you what Landry gives you. Thats not really an upgrade.

Being patient is not defeatist, its smart. Being paitent does NOT = tanking the season.

Portland once thought as you did. They just needed a bigger body to help with the playoff run, so they traded for an established and very good banger in Dale Davis. They traded the 10th guy off the bench getting spot minutes who wasnt quite ready to play. That guy was Jermaine Oneil. Those trades always suck. Always.

Carl Landry is 6-9 250 off the bench he gave Houston 16-6-1 54% in 27 minutes. Jason Thompson 11-7-1 in 28. Do you know ho much development it will take Mosgov just to get to these levels consistently? Jermaine Oneal was an Mcdonalds all american who did not get a chance. Mosgiv is a 24 year old C who has been playing a LONG time.

Allanfan20 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I would go with Turiaf first, Mosgov 2nd and hope like hell Anthony Randolph is ready to contribute this year

Yeah but Turiaf is injury prone, Mosgov isn't ready for many minutes and may not be ready at all, and AR isn't ready. We need another big body.

If AR is part of a trade for a building block piece, OK. But NO WAY NO HOW do I send him off for a role player, quick fix type of guy who isnt making a difference in a 7 game playoff series.

Thats bad management and will bite you everytime

Allanfan20 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I posted this in another thread:

I think the one guy I'm willing to change this roster around for is Bogut. If Milw was having a firesale and wanted to dump Bogut/Salmons I would think VERY hard about offering them Curry's expiring contract along w/ Fields/Chandler/Douglas/AR/(Mosgov or Turiaf)
I think with ZERO doubt, that Bogut/Amare/Gallo (all 6'10 plus) would be THE best frontcourt in the NBA and would win titles. You keep Felton and his tough guy play, move Williams to SG (who at 6'9 is a matchup nightmare) and your bench is Turiaf, Salmons, Bill Walker and whoever else earn minutes.

To me a Bogut/Amare/Gallo frontcourt makes the Knicks the best team in the league, or a top 3-4 for sure. You just spending the next couple of years tinkering the bench and finding shooters.

I think its a pipedream but hey. Bogut is a game changer on defense. Melo isnt.

You would offer ALL of them for Bogut?????

You have to trust Walsh to add some pieces but after Fields, Douglas, Willams, etc wouldnt you feel OK about that?

Your starting line would probably be:
C Bogut 7'0
PF Amare 6'10
SF Gallo 6'10
SG Williams 6'8 w/ a 7'3 wingspan
PG Felton
Bench: Salmons, Turiaf, Walker, etc

At that point your just building depth and trying to keep healthy because that team goes to the East Finals 3-4 times out of the next 5 years. You cant stop that team from scoring and its the bests defensive team in the NBA, or pretty close.

Its a pipedream though

fishmike wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I would go with Turiaf first, Mosgov 2nd and hope like hell Anthony Randolph is ready to contribute this year

Yeah but Turiaf is injury prone, Mosgov isn't ready for many minutes and may not be ready at all, and AR isn't ready. We need another big body.

before last year he played 72,78 and 79 games. He needs to be limited to 20mpg (ish). He should be fine. You get 20mpg from him, 8-10 from Mos and the rest your playing small which we do anyway.

If AR is part of a trade for a building block piece, OK. But NO WAY NO HOW do I send him off for a role player, quick fix type of guy who isnt making a difference in a 7 game playoff series.

Thats bad management and will bite you everytime

Well I didn't say trade AR for a quick fix. I'm thinking more along the lines of something cheaper, like a Nazr, who I have no clue where he is.

For the record, maybe he played most of his games the past 3 years, but he has a knee problem, and that's not something to ignore. He already missed a number of games, and you can't be surprised if he missed more.

As for Bogut, I understand your line of thinking, but you have to take at least take one of those guys out of there like Fields or Douglas. Especially Douglas, because as bad as his decision making is, his defense is absolutely critical for us. Plus, you're setting yourself up for having a weak bench, which is not conducive for winning championships.

Childs2Dudley wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

rvwink wrote:With the pieces we now have, it seems likely that the Knicks will make the playoffs. So what is the upside to bringing in some stop gap rebounder, with the extreme cost of disrupting the development of Mosgov and Randolph as a result. Why is winning a few extra games this season worth disrupting the development of players that D'Antoni in particular thinks can develop into important pieces in his system. In the past Mike has taken players who weren't performing all that well, and they have worked great in his system.

The Knicks improvement is a long term plan. We need to ignore a desire to have the Knicks win every game possible and instead focus on building for the future with excellent pieces that will ultimately be good enough to allow us to compete for a championship. Mosgov doesn't have the necessary experience, but he is blessed with a unique combination of both superior height, and both speed and endurance. Plus he has the beginning of an outside game, and apparently he is a very good learner.

D'Antoni sees all of his players work out and play games. He knows who is making progress and who isn't. What makes you guys think that you know better than him and Donnie Walsh as well?

Oh no no no no defeatist attitude.. If someone tells me why winning a few extra games doesnt mean anything and NOTHING less than an absolute goal of winning it all(its ok to come up short of a goal)Id like to hear the reasoning after I vomit. I DO NOT believe in losing unless rebuilding--EVERY game counts.... I am not giving up one stinking point for Mosgov or Randolph let alone game. The SECOND Amare started playing like an MVP the second Ray Felton upped his game to the upper echelon and the fact that we have 4 outstanding perimeter players that mesh with size the goals change my man---the goals at the start of the season have changed. Let me tell you something if i could turn Mosgov and Randolph into a player like Bogut or if I could even change Randolph into Jason Thompson--I would do it today. I would also use any NON core asset-TD to improve the team NOW including if a deal was that good---giving up FA. I don't think you ever use a defeatist attitude in sports especially when you have atleast a top 5 player in the game on your team. No rvwink Im sorry but youre wrong here.

Right, because having Thabeet or Joe Smith over Mozgov will make a significant difference.

The iSergio handle not working today:) Mosgov is a work in progress. He is 9th or 10th man in a 10 man rotation. He does do some nice things but if I can add a carl landry or a jason thompson to my second unit--I would do it becasue it makes us a better team. Who is better right now Nazr Mohamed or Mosgov? We can use Mosgov for spot moments and my hope is we see 20-25% improvement over the course of the year--but I cant count on that nor does it change our need for another big.

You serious right now? Mozgov is already better than that scrub Nazr Mohammed. Mohammed is washed up now.

lol Nazr had a 20-20 game this year.

BRIGGS wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

rvwink wrote:With the pieces we now have, it seems likely that the Knicks will make the playoffs. So what is the upside to bringing in some stop gap rebounder, with the extreme cost of disrupting the development of Mosgov and Randolph as a result. Why is winning a few extra games this season worth disrupting the development of players that D'Antoni in particular thinks can develop into important pieces in his system. In the past Mike has taken players who weren't performing all that well, and they have worked great in his system.

The Knicks improvement is a long term plan. We need to ignore a desire to have the Knicks win every game possible and instead focus on building for the future with excellent pieces that will ultimately be good enough to allow us to compete for a championship. Mosgov doesn't have the necessary experience, but he is blessed with a unique combination of both superior height, and both speed and endurance. Plus he has the beginning of an outside game, and apparently he is a very good learner.

D'Antoni sees all of his players work out and play games. He knows who is making progress and who isn't. What makes you guys think that you know better than him and Donnie Walsh as well?

Oh no no no no defeatist attitude.. If someone tells me why winning a few extra games doesnt mean anything and NOTHING less than an absolute goal of winning it all(its ok to come up short of a goal)Id like to hear the reasoning after I vomit. I DO NOT believe in losing unless rebuilding--EVERY game counts.... I am not giving up one stinking point for Mosgov or Randolph let alone game. The SECOND Amare started playing like an MVP the second Ray Felton upped his game to the upper echelon and the fact that we have 4 outstanding perimeter players that mesh with size the goals change my man---the goals at the start of the season have changed. Let me tell you something if i could turn Mosgov and Randolph into a player like Bogut or if I could even change Randolph into Jason Thompson--I would do it today. I would also use any NON core asset-TD to improve the team NOW including if a deal was that good---giving up FA. I don't think you ever use a defeatist attitude in sports especially when you have atleast a top 5 player in the game on your team. No rvwink Im sorry but youre wrong here.

Right, because having Thabeet or Joe Smith over Mozgov will make a significant difference.

The iSergio handle not working today:) Mosgov is a work in progress. He is 9th or 10th man in a 10 man rotation. He does do some nice things but if I can add a carl landry or a jason thompson to my second unit--I would do it becasue it makes us a better team. Who is better right now Nazr Mohamed or Mosgov? We can use Mosgov for spot moments and my hope is we see 20-25% improvement over the course of the year--but I cant count on that nor does it change our need for another big.

You serious right now? Mozgov is already better than that scrub Nazr Mohammed. Mohammed is washed up now.

lol Nazr had a 20-20 game this year.

Nice, he's Kareem reincarnated now.

Nice to know you follow other teams so closely that you are begging to take their scrubs.

orangeblobman wrote:Nazr played only 4 in one game against us and didn't make it on the court in the second game. He can't hang against us, how will he hang with us?

You know what--no one is giving us Tim Duncan. If we accept that Ronnie Turriaf is a guy who might not play healthy for us--or cant be reliable--then we need another reliable big NBA player.

Why--becasue Mosgov is not a reliable NBA rotation player. He has bad hands and needs time to learn the nuances of this NBA game.

To compete against the bigger teams we need an additional big reliable player with skills--the Knicks know it--anyone who understand basketball knows it. When we played Boston--Amare got beat up and outplayed--we didnt play New Orleans with West or the Bulls with Boozer--but we will. We need a guy who can score rebound defend. I wish randolph would do it--but apparently he cant for some unknown reason. I mean it is the same kid who averaged 15-11 when ge was 19 in his last 6 weeks rookie year and 11-6 last year before injury---11-6 and a block would go a long way. too bad we cant adjust his play.