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Turiaf's Injury
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cheers
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12/2/2010  6:58 PM
rvwink wrote:When Turiaf is in the game on offense, he plays from the perimeter. Because he isn't a threat from the outside, he makes it easier for the other team to double Amare. When Chandler is playing power forward, with Amare at center, what Knick player does the opponent leave unguarded so they can double Amare?

Also Chandler's ability to drive to the basket seems to me that have dramatically improved recently. I think he benefits greatly from the opposition's center having to come out and guard Amare. Wilson is perhaps our most graceful finisher, and a much more efficient scorer when he is driving the basket regularly. Wilson absolutely appeared to be a mismatch waiting to happen against the Nets.

I don't think that D'Antoni will make the lineup decision entirely on his own. My guess is that he asks Amare which lineup he prefers. If Amare plays center instead of playing power forward, it draws the opposing center away from the basket, opening up the paint for the slashers, including Amare. Slashing to the basket and either scoring or getting fouled is a great tactic for the whole Knicks team particularly with our quality free throw shooting in place.

I don't have a good answer for the balanced scoring issue. But it does seem to me that the Knicks getting slow starts in the first quarter is an initial problem that usually occurs when the Knicks eventually lose. I like having the Knicks starters on the floor when the game starts and also when it finishes. I would rather use Turiaf as a kind of fireman, brought out on the floor when the other team is having their way with us and it needs fixing. I would like to use his 15 minutes to the best advantage by waiting for the problem to occur, before we bring him in.

why would d'antoni invest time on amar'e the center, when it is likely wilson's last season as a knick. as soon as turiaf is ready amar'e will go back to foward, i dont even see that as a hard call to make.

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TMS
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12/2/2010  7:16 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/2/2010  7:17 PM
cheers wrote:
rvwink wrote:When Turiaf is in the game on offense, he plays from the perimeter. Because he isn't a threat from the outside, he makes it easier for the other team to double Amare. When Chandler is playing power forward, with Amare at center, what Knick player does the opponent leave unguarded so they can double Amare?

Also Chandler's ability to drive to the basket seems to me that have dramatically improved recently. I think he benefits greatly from the opposition's center having to come out and guard Amare. Wilson is perhaps our most graceful finisher, and a much more efficient scorer when he is driving the basket regularly. Wilson absolutely appeared to be a mismatch waiting to happen against the Nets.

I don't think that D'Antoni will make the lineup decision entirely on his own. My guess is that he asks Amare which lineup he prefers. If Amare plays center instead of playing power forward, it draws the opposing center away from the basket, opening up the paint for the slashers, including Amare. Slashing to the basket and either scoring or getting fouled is a great tactic for the whole Knicks team particularly with our quality free throw shooting in place.

I don't have a good answer for the balanced scoring issue. But it does seem to me that the Knicks getting slow starts in the first quarter is an initial problem that usually occurs when the Knicks eventually lose. I like having the Knicks starters on the floor when the game starts and also when it finishes. I would rather use Turiaf as a kind of fireman, brought out on the floor when the other team is having their way with us and it needs fixing. I would like to use his 15 minutes to the best advantage by waiting for the problem to occur, before we bring him in.

why would d'antoni invest time on amar'e the center, when it is likely wilson's last season as a knick. as soon as turiaf is ready amar'e will go back to foward, i dont even see that as a hard call to make.

Turiaf doesn't camp out in the middle while he's playing next to Amare in order to provide the spacing he needs to operate down low... he doesn't care about getting any touches on offense, his sole job out there is to play defense, grab rebounds & block shots, & he is good at his role... i think it's been proven this year so far this team is strongest w/him as our starting C... u can get away w/playing Amare at C against certain teams according to matchups, but over the long haul he is best suited to playing the PF position... what we need is for Mozgov to finally start showing something that he belongs at the NBA level & help to spell Turiaf from having to play all these extended minutes that he's not used to having to play so he doesn't break down as the season goes along... Wilson is being utilized perfectly fine right now as a 6th man... his versatility gives MDA options to mix & match his rotations to get favorable matchups.

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Sangfroid
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12/2/2010  7:17 PM
rvwink wrote:"Well in AR's case he left too early. Lots of guys have. I think he's paying for that now."

Its really hard to be acting in AR's best interest and still to tell him to turn down the financial security of being a top 10 pick. What if he gets badly injured in his next year in college, When the big money vanishes, AR life changes dramatically going forward. I agree that through the rear view mirror you are correct in saying that he left too early. But it is really hard to make that decision when you are looking forward, and he is turning down so much money.

Right now, he's being paid to learn. Just as he has been paid to learn the past 2 seasons. Even if he totally flops, which I doubt, he will still make a windfall. The probability of the next contract is in his favor

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rvwink
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12/2/2010  7:30 PM
"why would d'antoni invest time on amar'e the center, when it is likely wilson's last season as a knick. as soon as turiaf is ready amar'e will go back to foward, i dont even see that as a hard call to make"

Because D'Antoni wants to win, and he will play the lineup that gives him the best chance to win. The fact that this may be Wilson's last year seem irrelevant to me.

When Amare plays center, there is a scoring threat in every position. That means less double teams for Amare. I think he likes that.

Amare is personally committed to turning the Knicks into a winner. He will definitely get behind whatever gives the Knicks their best chance to win. I don't think he will make a selfish decision on this issue.

I clearly could be wrong....

cheers
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12/2/2010  7:31 PM
rvwink wrote:"why would d'antoni invest time on amar'e the center, when it is likely wilson's last season as a knick. as soon as turiaf is ready amar'e will go back to foward, i dont even see that as a hard call to make"

Because D'Antoni wants to win, and he will play the lineup that gives him the best chance to win. The fact that this may be Wilson's last year seem irrelevant to me.

When Amare plays center, there is a scoring threat in every position. That means less double teams for Amare. I think he likes that.

Amare is personally committed to turning the Knicks into a winner. He will definitely get behind whatever gives the Knicks their best chance to win. I don't think he will make a selfish decision on this issue.

I clearly could be wrong....

thats it you're in the fish tank!

BRIGGS
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12/2/2010  10:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/2/2010  10:21 PM

---> I strenuously disagree with Brigg's idea of bringing in other bigs before we exhaust our efforts to improve the games of Mosgov and AR by giving them playing time.

Let me ask this question. If we added Carl Landry and he gave us the same 16-6 and 1 block 54% 27 minutes off the bench he gave Houston two years ago and we never started or even played Mosgov one minute--what would the teams record be? Not even a question--we'd be +4 or 14-5 right now. Honestly when I thought wed win 50--I pegged Randolph in for 15-7 but for some reason--he doesnt fit here. Im ok with developing a player--no problem and seeing a guy gets spot minutes---but right now Msogov is not an NBA rotation player and carl Landry is a proven 15 point scorer +50% off the bench. With an MVP type frontcourt player a 20-10 PG two wings who can score 20 + points any given night and a lock for atleast 15 with great role players in turriaf(off the bench) fields--then we add in Douglas and azu at some point--thats a much better team. With Landry here--he can also score 15+ and would give Amare a needed break we dont have a second big who can score 10 points let alone 15 or 20--and thats our weakness. Not Carmelo Anthony or hope Mosgov hands soften up and he learns the nBA game quick--or that randolph will come back but a SECOND proven low post player who can score--thats our weakness. Think about that differential

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martin
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12/2/2010  11:26 PM
rvwink wrote:I wrote this thread because I was really interested in hearing informed opinions about whether you guys think Wilson Chandler will continue in the starting lineup at power forward and Amare will start at center when Turiaf returns and why D'Antoni is making that move.

and yet you spent 2 paragraphs talking about Amare and his 3point shooting?

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Bippity10
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12/3/2010  12:05 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/3/2010  12:09 AM
we are 5-1 when Turiaf starts, why do people keep talking like it's not working? Our season actually turned around the day we inserted him in the starting line-up. I think a better argument would be to have him start over Gallinari, but even with that you don't get the same instant offense punch that you get with wilson. If we are going to beat the better teams we must have a leader off that bench. There is no if ands or buts about it.
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BRIGGS
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12/3/2010  1:22 AM
Bippity10 wrote:we are 5-1 when Turiaf starts, why do people keep talking like it's not working? Our season actually turned around the day we inserted him in the starting line-up. I think a better argument would be to have him start over Gallinari, but even with that you don't get the same instant offense punch that you get with wilson. If we are going to beat the better teams we must have a leader off that bench. There is no if ands or buts about it.

I agree with you that we need more bench help. All of the great teams have 2 bigs/posts who can score 20 points any given night--we dont have that. Turriaf is good for 15 minutes off the bench. Chandler is a guy who can give me 22/23 pts 7-8 rebounds 2 a 2 blocks thats thats levels above Turriaf.

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12/3/2010  2:07 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Randolph--personally I like AR and would like to keep him long term. I think he should be integrated back in without having to look over his shoulder but I don't see that happening. The best thing for Anthony would be a 5- 10 game stint in the d league and to concentrate on the interior part of the game. If he can put on 10 pounds of muscle and explosion over the next 9 months and adds 1-2 low post moves into his game along with a nice 10-12 footer--he can be reborn here as a player. The worst thing that happened to AR since he was traded here was allowing him to move beyond the 3 pt line. Id like to see him in some P+R with his few minutes--go get 2-4 rebounds and block a shot. Maybe over 40 games or so--he could be a guy that garners more minutes. I suggested moving him for a player who is also young but may be more of fit becasue I want to win now with this club--becasue it has a chance to be a really good club. But if we keep staus quo--a there must emphasis to get AR to a level where he can go 15-20 minutes without giving MDA a coronary. Concentrating on low post moves/interior play pick and roll offensive + D rebounding + good D--he might be able to cut down on the mistakes and pick up the efficiency he needs here.

AR is not a post player, he needs to be quick and explosive he just needs to learn the game better.... he CAN make the smart play.. he just needs to calm down and understand when... I think he just needs coaching and experience.. he will figure it out

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12/3/2010  6:06 AM
I haven't heard any recent quotes from Walsh about how he was thinking about drafting AR, but went with Gallo because he was concerned about AR's weight.
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12/3/2010  10:16 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:we are 5-1 when Turiaf starts, why do people keep talking like it's not working? Our season actually turned around the day we inserted him in the starting line-up. I think a better argument would be to have him start over Gallinari, but even with that you don't get the same instant offense punch that you get with wilson. If we are going to beat the better teams we must have a leader off that bench. There is no if ands or buts about it.

I agree with you that we need more bench help. All of the great teams have 2 bigs/posts who can score 20 points any given night--we dont have that. Turriaf is good for 15 minutes off the bench. Chandler is a guy who can give me 22/23 pts 7-8 rebounds 2 a 2 blocks thats thats levels above Turriaf.

Again, we can do all that, with Wilson coming off the bench. There is no NBA by law that states that Turiaf must play more then 15-20 minutes if he starts, or that Wilson can't play 40 off the bench. but if something is working you shouldn't change it. We need that bunch off the bench. If our bench is going to score 8 points a night we are going to get toasted by the better teams.

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12/3/2010  2:42 PM
"and yet you spent 2 paragraphs talking about Amare and his 3point shooting?"

A sign my mother put on my desk reading "Improve Each Shining Hour" changed my athletic career. Since practicing was the key to improvement, over and over, I kept trying to find a "better way". My desire to improve was so strong, I succeeded way beyond my own expectations, (ending up a Division 1 collegiate All American).

So I love to watch other athletes like Toney Douglas, Amare and David Lee, whose work ethics allow them to keep making progress year after year. Seeing evidence that Amare had improved his long range shooting naturally caught my eye. Yes, I admit that I probably should have checked to see what the number of shot Amare had taken. But I still love the fact that a career .227 3 point shooter has the guts and self confidence to take 3 point shots late, with the game on the line. The fact that Amare has managed to make 5 out 9 is evidence that he feels better about his long range shooting. Amare making progress in his long range shooting is a big deal for the Knicks. First, it make it much harder for the people guarding him, to defend both the long ball and the drive. Second, since the Knicks have guaranteed him 5 years, improved long range shooting should improve Amare's contribution to the Knicks winning ways during the final 2 years of his contract.

Hope that helps explains a little better, why I was infatuated with that statistic, that everyone else seems to feel is inconsequential.

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12/3/2010  3:20 PM
I cringe when I see Randolph come in and on his first touch put up a 15foot jumper.

I would like to see him develop post moves but he's so too stringy to hold his position down like.

I'd like to see him concentrate on a hook shot.

the fact that you can't even have an unrelated thread without some tool here bringing him up make me think that rational minds are few and far between. Bunch of emotionally weak, angst riddled people. I mean, how many times can you argue the same shyt
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12/3/2010  3:34 PM
Some bigs need to be lurkers. I felt that way about Curry. He doesn't need to be the primary focus of the offense. These bigs will be more effective when they get the ball on back door cuts, off guard penetration hand offs, PnR etc. You put AR in that kind of role where he's catching alleyoops and able to get the ball in motion to the basket and he's gonna be a monster.

What you want is to run your play and draw the D so that AR can be within 2 steps to the basket and get a pass that leads to a dunk or layup. This is how CP3 used Chandler and he's back to doing that with the Mavs! All of our bigs can do this. Timo, Turiaf, AR and of course Amar'e. Tho Amar'e has far more game, but still those other guys can at least be dump off guys in this offense.

Bippity10
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12/3/2010  3:36 PM
nixluva wrote:Some bigs need to be lurkers. I felt that way about Curry. He doesn't need to be the primary focus of the offense. These bigs will be more effective when they get the ball on back door cuts, off guard penetration hand offs, PnR etc. You put AR in that kind of role where he's catching alleyoops and able to get the ball in motion to the basket and he's gonna be a monster.

What you want is to run your play and draw the D so that AR can be within 2 steps to the basket and get a pass that leads to a dunk or layup. This is how CP3 used Chandler and he's back to doing that with the Mavs! All of our bigs can do this. Timo, Turiaf, AR and of course Amar'e. Tho Amar'e has far more game, but still those other guys can at least be dump off guys in this offense.

I think ultimately that's what his role will be. Unfortunately right now he's shooting so poorly that his man is just playing in the paint and taking the back door option away from him. This is also clogging the paint for Amare. This is why he is a liability right now.

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nixluva
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12/3/2010  3:41 PM
Bippity10 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Some bigs need to be lurkers. I felt that way about Curry. He doesn't need to be the primary focus of the offense. These bigs will be more effective when they get the ball on back door cuts, off guard penetration hand offs, PnR etc. You put AR in that kind of role where he's catching alleyoops and able to get the ball in motion to the basket and he's gonna be a monster.

What you want is to run your play and draw the D so that AR can be within 2 steps to the basket and get a pass that leads to a dunk or layup. This is how CP3 used Chandler and he's back to doing that with the Mavs! All of our bigs can do this. Timo, Turiaf, AR and of course Amar'e. Tho Amar'e has far more game, but still those other guys can at least be dump off guys in this offense.

I think ultimately that's what his role will be. Unfortunately right now he's shooting so poorly that his man is just playing in the paint and taking the back door option away from him. This is also clogging the paint for Amare. This is why he is a liability right now.

This is why I like the sets we run where there is more motion. You want to keep the D from just packing in then you have to get everyone moving. Picks being set and lots of passing and player movement. That's how AR can slip in behind the D or in the lane for easy scores. When we don't have 3 pt shooting in the game we can run those kinds of plays. No reason why AR can't be a great PnR guy.

Bippity10
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12/3/2010  3:44 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Some bigs need to be lurkers. I felt that way about Curry. He doesn't need to be the primary focus of the offense. These bigs will be more effective when they get the ball on back door cuts, off guard penetration hand offs, PnR etc. You put AR in that kind of role where he's catching alleyoops and able to get the ball in motion to the basket and he's gonna be a monster.

What you want is to run your play and draw the D so that AR can be within 2 steps to the basket and get a pass that leads to a dunk or layup. This is how CP3 used Chandler and he's back to doing that with the Mavs! All of our bigs can do this. Timo, Turiaf, AR and of course Amar'e. Tho Amar'e has far more game, but still those other guys can at least be dump off guys in this offense.

I think ultimately that's what his role will be. Unfortunately right now he's shooting so poorly that his man is just playing in the paint and taking the back door option away from him. This is also clogging the paint for Amare. This is why he is a liability right now.

This is why I like the sets we run where there is more motion. You want to keep the D from just packing in then you have to get everyone moving. Picks being set and lots of passing and player movement. That's how AR can slip in behind the D or in the lane for easy scores. When we don't have 3 pt shooting in the game we can run those kinds of plays. No reason why AR can't be a great PnR guy.

Because teams are not overplaying the screen when Randolph is involved. If they switch the new man just drops off not allowing him to roll. If they don't switch his own man drops off. They are forcing all his pick and rolls to be pick and pops. When he becomes a threat this will change. But right now.....

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12/3/2010  3:49 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Some bigs need to be lurkers. I felt that way about Curry. He doesn't need to be the primary focus of the offense. These bigs will be more effective when they get the ball on back door cuts, off guard penetration hand offs, PnR etc. You put AR in that kind of role where he's catching alleyoops and able to get the ball in motion to the basket and he's gonna be a monster.

What you want is to run your play and draw the D so that AR can be within 2 steps to the basket and get a pass that leads to a dunk or layup. This is how CP3 used Chandler and he's back to doing that with the Mavs! All of our bigs can do this. Timo, Turiaf, AR and of course Amar'e. Tho Amar'e has far more game, but still those other guys can at least be dump off guys in this offense.

I think ultimately that's what his role will be. Unfortunately right now he's shooting so poorly that his man is just playing in the paint and taking the back door option away from him. This is also clogging the paint for Amare. This is why he is a liability right now.

This is why I like the sets we run where there is more motion. You want to keep the D from just packing in then you have to get everyone moving. Picks being set and lots of passing and player movement. That's how AR can slip in behind the D or in the lane for easy scores. When we don't have 3 pt shooting in the game we can run those kinds of plays. No reason why AR can't be a great PnR guy.

problem with AR is that he isn't a good P n R guy. He doesn't play like a 6'11'' player he makes himself a small player. Amare is 6'9'' at best but damn he makes himself bigger than he is. AR is the opposite he makes himself small. The need to get AR 5' from the basket and he should never take anything outside of that range.

nixluva
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12/3/2010  3:54 PM
Bippity10 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Some bigs need to be lurkers. I felt that way about Curry. He doesn't need to be the primary focus of the offense. These bigs will be more effective when they get the ball on back door cuts, off guard penetration hand offs, PnR etc. You put AR in that kind of role where he's catching alleyoops and able to get the ball in motion to the basket and he's gonna be a monster.

What you want is to run your play and draw the D so that AR can be within 2 steps to the basket and get a pass that leads to a dunk or layup. This is how CP3 used Chandler and he's back to doing that with the Mavs! All of our bigs can do this. Timo, Turiaf, AR and of course Amar'e. Tho Amar'e has far more game, but still those other guys can at least be dump off guys in this offense.

I think ultimately that's what his role will be. Unfortunately right now he's shooting so poorly that his man is just playing in the paint and taking the back door option away from him. This is also clogging the paint for Amare. This is why he is a liability right now.

This is why I like the sets we run where there is more motion. You want to keep the D from just packing in then you have to get everyone moving. Picks being set and lots of passing and player movement. That's how AR can slip in behind the D or in the lane for easy scores. When we don't have 3 pt shooting in the game we can run those kinds of plays. No reason why AR can't be a great PnR guy.

Because teams are not overplaying the screen when Randolph is involved. If they switch the new man just drops off not allowing him to roll. If they don't switch his own man drops off. They are forcing all his pick and rolls to be pick and pops. When he becomes a threat this will change. But right now.....

I think it's more how he's doing it and when. Watch Turiaf and he comes up from the post area and sets a fake screen at the key and slips right down the lane. Timo uses that play as well. There are also other plays where it's more of a give and go type play.

I like the one where Felton gives the ball to Amar'e then darts past Amar'e, who hands it back as Felton streaks towards the basket. This play also forces the PF guarding Amar'e to leave him to try and stop Felton from getting the layup. If he's successful, that's when the rolling Amar'e has the opening in the paint to get a short drop off from Felton. AR could do that play just as well IMO. It's a play that starts closer to the basket and isn't intended to lead to a PnPop.

Turiaf's Injury

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