TMS wrote:career assists average:

Kevin Durant: 2.7
Carmelo Anthony: 3.1[/b]

WOW, huge difference there... i wonder why Haberstroh isn't writing articles on why Kevin Durant isn't worth a max contract, or how we are all biased in our esteem of his "sparkling reputation" as an elite basketball player? apparently Kevin Durant must be showing him the "intensity & dedication on the defensive end that he'd want from a max player"... yyyyeah.

dude, anyone can write up some BS article like this & twist the facts to try & suit their argument... next time maybe you'll take the time to actually look up the numbers yourself before taking everything some guy writing on ESPN Insider writes as gospel & lecturing me on why i need to "get my head out of the sand"

Interesting that you use a non defense stat (assists) to show why Carmelo and KD play similar defense? Anyone who watches games should see that KD plays better defense than Carmelo. The stats agree:

2009 rebounds:
Carmelo: 6.6
Durant: 7.6

2009 steals:
Carmelo: 1.3
Durant: 1.4

2009 blocks:
Carmelo: .4
Durant: 1.0

I think at the end of the day, we'll have our opinions on who is worth what, but if we're going to use stats to make a point let's try not to confuse/hide the issue.

knickstorrents wrote:

TMS wrote:
shot attempts made in 2009 / minutes played per game:

Kevin Durant: 1668 / 39.5
Kobe Bryant: 1569 / 38.8
Lebron James: 1528 / 39.0
Carmelo Anthony: 1502 / 38.2

now i'm no math professor or statistics guru, but it would seem to me that Melo took significantly LESS shot attempts last season & played less minutes per game than any of the guys your stat geek expert brought up in his article... i don't see how any of that "raises some eyebrows" in relation to Melo's shot volume in comparison to those other guys.

A lot to dispute here, I'll start from the top. If you are going to use total shot attempts, you need to use the proper metric to measure that against, and that's total minutes played (not minutes per game). Are you trying to confuse/hide the issue of Melo's inefficiency? Melo only played 69 games last year so even though he played many minutes per game, he didn't play as many games as the other players... and yet he still took roughly the same number of total shots.

Anyway here's the proper way to break it down:

shot attempts made in 2009 / Total minutes 2009:

Kevin Durant: 1668 / 3239 (ratio is .515 shots per minute)
Kobe Bryant: 1569 / 2835 (ratio is .55)
Lebron James: 1528 / 2966 (ratio is .515)
Carmelo Anthony: 1502 / 2634 (ratio is .57)

When measured properly, it's clear that Carmelo shoots more shots per minute than the other players.

a difference of .2 shot per minute in comparison to the next guy hardly does anything to defend your argument... the way this guy's article is presented you would think Melo was in a class of his own when it comes to volume shooting, which is clearly not the case.

knickstorrents wrote:I think at the end of the day, we'll have our opinions on who is worth what, but if we're going to use stats to make a point let's try not to confuse/hide the issue.

the only one using stats to try & confuse/hide the issue here is the writer of the article that i'm commenting on.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

TMS wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

TMS wrote:
shot attempts made in 2009 / minutes played per game:

Kevin Durant: 1668 / 39.5
Kobe Bryant: 1569 / 38.8
Lebron James: 1528 / 39.0
Carmelo Anthony: 1502 / 38.2

now i'm no math professor or statistics guru, but it would seem to me that Melo took significantly LESS shot attempts last season & played less minutes per game than any of the guys your stat geek expert brought up in his article... i don't see how any of that "raises some eyebrows" in relation to Melo's shot volume in comparison to those other guys.

A lot to dispute here, I'll start from the top. If you are going to use total shot attempts, you need to use the proper metric to measure that against, and that's total minutes played (not minutes per game). Are you trying to confuse/hide the issue of Melo's inefficiency? Melo only played 69 games last year so even though he played many minutes per game, he didn't play as many games as the other players... and yet he still took roughly the same number of total shots.

Anyway here's the proper way to break it down:

shot attempts made in 2009 / Total minutes 2009:

Kevin Durant: 1668 / 3239 (ratio is .515 shots per minute)
Kobe Bryant: 1569 / 2835 (ratio is .55)
Lebron James: 1528 / 2966 (ratio is .515)
Carmelo Anthony: 1502 / 2634 (ratio is .57)

When measured properly, it's clear that Carmelo shoots more shots per minute than the other players.

a difference of .2 shot per minute in comparison to the next guy hardly does anything to defend your argument... the way this guy's article is presented you would think Melo was in a class of his own when it comes to volume shooting, which is clearly not the case.

Dude. I'm sorry but I think you didn't get the #s right....

A difference of .2 shots per minute is 8 shots a game.

If the average NBA team shoots about 80 shots a game, that's a pretty decent significant amount of shots he takes.

And you keep on ignoring my points here..over..and over..and over again. The point of this thread isn't that Melo isn't a good player. At this point this thread became a debate on "ridiculous stats". You keep straying from the conversation and just jumping from random point to random point.

Why are you even comparing Melo's rebounding to Durant's rebounding?

Hollinger labeled him a "Good rebounder". BP said he was average to slightly above average. No one I quoted and nowhere on this thread did we say anything resembling Durant is sooo much better than Melo at rebounding.

Again you're spending time addressing phantom statements I or someone else made and ignoring pretty good points like these:

- The Nuggets play the 3rd fastest pace in the league so just comparing PPG to players on slower teams doesn't really work.

- Lebron 114 points per 100 posessions
- Wade 111 per 100 posessions
- Bosh 113
- Chauncey 120
- Melo 107

Before you say something like, OH THAT MEANS THESE GUYS THINK THAT CHAUNCEY IS BETTER THAN LEBRON THAT'S SO DUMB! again, this is just a measure of how points a guy produces with 100 posessions. It makes sense to use this stat because it doesn't make sense comparing

Player A who scores 28 over 100 posessions

to

Player B who scores 28 over 90 possessions

without taking # of posessions into account no?

The league average FG% is .463. Melo's is below that. There were 67 players above that last season. These are the facts. What's so ridiculous about that?

And I'll ask you again about THIS..not Kevin Durant. Which I never did btw.

1. in his NBA Career total. Melo has played 514 regular season games + 46 Playoff games = 560 games
How many of those did YOU, TMS watch?

If a stats guy watches just as many games and also compiles and digs into stats from all 560 games how is it so crazy to think they might notice something you don't?

2. Ok. Tom Haberstroh is just a stupid hack who taints the #s with "ridiculous stats" i keep "shoving in your face".

John Hollinger is ridiculous too?
Theo Epstein, ridiculous?

Rich Cho worked at frikkin Boeing and has a degree in law. During his time in Seattle, Cho worked closely with Microsoft to develop a comprehensive player evaluation system. He's known for using his eyes and quantitative analysis. (looking at "ridiculous stats")

He must be out of his mind too right?

There are tons of NBA, MLB, and NFL teams who hire guys to take a deeper look at the #s to supplement their talent evaluation.

But they're all just geeks with pocket protectors.

All I'm saying is your observations of Melo over MAYBE 25% of his games might just not be that complete a picture of him.

That's not so ridiculous is it?

i'm not ignoring your posts... you just haven't made any points that i consider valid in this discussion... quoting from some ridiculously biased article about how Melo's volume shooting makes him an overrated basketball player does nothing to further your argument, especially when that said article completely ignores the numbers that other comparable elite players have put up over their careers as i've pointed out... i have read & have analyzed the points being brought up in those articles you suggested & i don't agree with them... sorry you have a problem with the fact that an unlearned & novice follower of the game like myself would ever dare to challenge the authority of guys who have law degrees & have worked at a major airline & software company... i suppose that makes people like that authorities on the sport of basketball... i only have a bachelors degree in art & work at a marketing company, so what the hell do i know.

for what it's worth (& it's probably very little to you) in my view stats are only a TOOL to use to AID in judging NBA talent, but the main impression i get of a players' talent is from watching them play basketball... & i'm sorry if i haven't watched every minute of every game that Carmelo Anthony has ever played in his lifetime like those experts who have tabulated all these convoluted stats apparently have like you so adamantly pointed out, but i do think i'm entitled to voice an opinion on these forums of what i believe an elite basketball player to be... i'm sorry if you have a problem if i don't have a list of rankings based on shooting percentages & shots taken per minute to counter any of these awesome conclusions that your experts have provided... if it's all the same to you i'll hold onto my opinions & you can formulate your own any way you want.

1.

TMS

shot attempts made in 2009 / minutes played per game:
Kevin Durant: 1668 / 39.5
Kobe Bryant: 1569 / 38.8
Lebron James: 1528 / 39.0
Carmelo Anthony: 1502 / 38.2
now i'm no math professor or statistics guru, but it would seem to me that Melo took significantly LESS shot attempts last season & played less minutes per game than any of the guys your stat geek expert brought up in his article... i don't see how any of that "raises some eyebrows" in relation to Melo's shot volume in comparison to those other guys.

a difference of .2 shot per minute in comparison to the next guy hardly does anything to defend your argument... the way this guy's article is presented you would think Melo was in a class of his own when it comes to volume shooting, which is clearly not the case.

GSTK

Dude. I'm sorry but I think you didn't get the #s right....
A difference of .2 shots per minute is 8 shots a game.
If the average NBA team shoots about 80 shots a game, that's a pretty decent significant amount of shots he takes.

TMS SILENCE

Instead of addressing something I said in direct response to something you said you instead resort to

"you just haven't made any points that i consider valid in this discussion..."
"i only have a bachelors degree in art & work at a marketing company, so what the hell do i know."

=============================================================================================================

2.

GSTK

So in his NBA Career total. Melo has played 514 regular season games + 46 Playoff games = 560 games
How many of those did YOU, TMS watch?
I'll make a giant leap of faith and assume you watched every single minute of every playoff game he was in, including the last game of sweeps and near sweeps in the 1st round.
That's 46 playoff games.
Out of 7 regular seasons, let's assume you watched TEN Denver games in their entirety. Again, please correct me if I underestimated that number.
That's 70 regular season games.
70 + 46 = 116 out of 560 games. That's 21% of his games. Meaning you haven't seen him play 79% of his NBA games.

If a stats guy watches just as many games and also compiles and digs into stats from all 560 games how is it so crazy to think they might notice something you don't?

TMS

i'm sorry if i haven't watched every minute of every game that Carmelo Anthony has ever played in his lifetime like those experts who have tabulated all these convoluted stats apparently have like you so adamantly pointed out, but i do think i'm entitled to voice an opinion on these forums of what i believe an elite basketball player to be..

Once again I don't think you're getting it at all.

Let me try to be as clear as possible.

I never said that if you haven't watched every single game Melo played in his life you're not entitled to an opinion.

You believe you're entitled to an opinion on Melo's value even though, by my best estimates, you've MAYBE watched a quarter of the games he's played in. Which is fine. All of us have opinions on players we've watched even just a handful of times.

You believe that stats are "a TOOL to use to AID in judging NBA talent"

You also said that "the main impression i get of a players' talent is from watching them play basketball"

But when someone who has very likely watched just as many Melo games as you (Hollinger, Haberstroh, the guys who work at Basketball Prospectus) voice an opinion based on ACTUALLY WATCHING MELO PLAY

AND.... notice the use of the word AAAAAANNNNNNDDDDD

compiling his stats over his entire career and digging deeper into them

THEIR opinion is "ridiculous". Their stats are "convoluted".

and then you harp on how they're (or me) the ones being condescending?????

=================================================================

3. TMS

career rebounding average:
Kevin Durant: 6.2
Carmelo Anthony: 6.2
career assists average:
Kevin Durant: 2.7
Carmelo Anthony: 3.1

WOW, huge difference there... i wonder why Haberstroh isn't writing articles on why Kevin Durant isn't worth a max contract, or how we are all biased in our esteem of his "sparkling reputation" as an elite basketball player? apparently Kevin Durant must be showing him the "intensity & dedication on the defensive end that he'd want from a max player"... yyyyeah.
dude, anyone can write up some BS article like this & twist the facts to try & suit their argument... next time maybe you'll take the time to actually look up the numbers yourself before taking everything some guy writing on ESPN Insider writes as gospel & lecturing me on why i need to "get my head out of the sand"

GSTK

Why are you even comparing Melo's rebounding to Durant's rebounding?
Hollinger labeled him a "Good rebounder". BP said he was average to slightly above average. No one I quoted and nowhere on this thread did we say anything resembling Durant is sooo much better than Melo at rebounding.

TMS

i'm not ignoring your posts... you just haven't made any points that i consider valid in this discussion

======================================

# 3 is the best example. No one was talking about Melo being a poor rebounder or Durant being any better than him but you go on this random rant about it out of left field. I ask you wtf you're talking about and then...you respond with...

Nothing...

Can an unbiased observer please tell me if I'm wrong here?

If we're just going to say random things, let me just say

Let's go Knicks!!!!!

Again, no one has said Melo isn't a very very good player. They've said

"quick first step and variety of creative deliveries"
"Physical, high-scoring forward who likes to mix it up on the blocks."
"Good rebounder"
"among the top free throw drawers at his position"
"His exceptional skill on offense is his ability to get his shot off, whether it's attacking the rim or through a patented pull-up jumper on the perimeter."
"Is that package worth the max salary? Probably"
"quality defender when committed"

In the first post on this thread I actually tried to use #s to state that Melo wasn't all that inefficient and compared his season last season to one from Larry Bird...

You keep focusing on Haberstroh only when I posted something from him, Hollinger and the BP guys.

So I don't know why you're acting like someone said he sucks or something.

Let's go Knicks!

perhaps i should clarify this point to you... the reason Melo is percieved as an elite talent is because he's 1 of the top scoring players in the NBA... do you or do you not agree with this? i draw direct parallells to Kevin Durant's career numbers because they are very comparable to Melo's... Durant shoots a better % from behind the arc but his career shooting % is very similar... in the end, it's about getting the ball & scoring the ball for both these guys, & yeah, Melo shoots a high volume of shots, but that's he's usually the best player on the court on his team... the best scorers usually get the most shot opportunities... that's sorta how NBA coaches like to try & win their games, they get the ball into the hands of their best scorers.

now you can go on ranting & raving about how i need to get my head out of the sand & buy into the expert opinions of Bill Simmons, Bob Haberstroh & whoever else you want to quote from, but i simply do not agree with some of their views on the issue... you have gone to lengths to try & show how i'm being unreasonably stubborn but yet you seem to be of a similar mind as me that Melo is an elite player in the NBA... or maybe i'm wrong... at this point i don't really care... you're entitled to an opinion & i'm entitled to mine... i view Melo as a player that would make us a much better basketball team, & so i'm pulling for us to make the trade to get him this year... you can post as many rankings lists as you want to show me where Melo places in comparison to other players in the NBA, but stats don't tell the whole story... i'll give you a list of 2 SF's i'd rather have than Melo on this team & that's Lebron & Durant... that's a pretty limited list... Melo is elite in my eyes.

at this point i'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest with you or hearing your play by play analysis of this conversation on this thread... i've given my opinion & have explained it to the fullest of my ability... at this point i don't know how else i can explain my argument so i'm done trying.

Go Knicks! Melo to the Knicks, get er done Donnie! that is all.