martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

20ppg, 11rpg, 4 apg, 55% FGs IS a superstar to me. Oh wait. David Lee plays ZERO defense. Tell me you give Carmello a pass because he read the David Lee manual on how to defend.

Melo is 2 time all star who has advanced in the playoffs once.

He can carry the scoring load for your team. Gallo and AR cant.

We dont need guys who can score. We need size, skill, depth and defense.

You missing the point. Melo is better than AR and Gallo, but we dont need to trade those guys for him, and we shouldnt.

If the goal is to win a title trading for Melo ensures that wont happen. Melo takes up 1-2 of your best young high ceiling players AND eats up all your cap space.

If we wants to come here he can next year. Hell, I'm not even sure I would want time. I would rather use the cap space on Marc Gasol, Horford, Dalembert maybe... maybe Caron Butler, Jason Richardson. Get a stopper like Shane Battier to play SG/SF. We can do that and keep AR/Gallo who are rotation building block players with all star potential.

Sergio.. your Isiah Thomas all over again. Sure... Melo makes us better, hes an all star, he's a shiney new toy and he gets you futher from winning a title here, not closer.

LOL I'm no Isiah Thomas. I'm trading two role players for 1 elite SuperStar.

Is Melo an elite superstar cause he scores a lot? Does he play D? Make those around him better?

Carmelo Anthony is not David Lee on defense. And yes, he does make players around him better. Where was Denver before he got there? The Nuggets are a 30 win team without him, even if they have Danilo Gallinari and Anthony Randolph.

iSergio wrote:

martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

20ppg, 11rpg, 4 apg, 55% FGs IS a superstar to me. Oh wait. David Lee plays ZERO defense. Tell me you give Carmello a pass because he read the David Lee manual on how to defend.

Melo is 2 time all star who has advanced in the playoffs once.

He can carry the scoring load for your team. Gallo and AR cant.

We dont need guys who can score. We need size, skill, depth and defense.

You missing the point. Melo is better than AR and Gallo, but we dont need to trade those guys for him, and we shouldnt.

If the goal is to win a title trading for Melo ensures that wont happen. Melo takes up 1-2 of your best young high ceiling players AND eats up all your cap space.

If we wants to come here he can next year. Hell, I'm not even sure I would want time. I would rather use the cap space on Marc Gasol, Horford, Dalembert maybe... maybe Caron Butler, Jason Richardson. Get a stopper like Shane Battier to play SG/SF. We can do that and keep AR/Gallo who are rotation building block players with all star potential.

Sergio.. your Isiah Thomas all over again. Sure... Melo makes us better, hes an all star, he's a shiney new toy and he gets you futher from winning a title here, not closer.

LOL I'm no Isiah Thomas. I'm trading two role players for 1 elite SuperStar.

Is Melo an elite superstar cause he scores a lot? Does he play D? Make those around him better?

Carmelo Anthony is not David Lee on defense. And yes, he does make players around him better. Where was Denver before he got there? The Nuggets are a 30 win team without him, even if they have Danilo Gallinari and Anthony Randolph.

Melo no Lee? That aint saying much, but what you may be implying is that his D isn't really all that good and for the most part he is certainly no lockdown player and even considered for any of the all-defensive teams.

Trying to think of a player who was much more effective being around him and can't come up with any... care to share?

that means we end up with either gallo and melo, gallo and ar or ar and melo.

it's ALL good.

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:If the Knicks currently had Ewing in his prime - a shotblocking, rebound, defensive presence in the middle along with the scoring - I would say that adding Melo would be perfect. Their respective games seem to compliment one another. Amare is a different animal and adding Melo to him would not take the team to an elite status in the league. And adding role players to those 2 guys would certainly not be enough to get past Miami or perhaps even Orlando; not even sure having 1 of Gallo or AR next to those guys is enough for Miami.

boy you said it... great analysis.

Sergio I dont see Gallo and AR as role players. They are core top of the rotation guys. They are also not developed yet, which is another exact reason NOT to trade them. Your selling low and buying high w/ Carmello coming off one of his best years.

Gallo *can* be elite shooter, mismatch nightmare and two way player in this league. He's got a Tim Thomas skill set and John Starks heart. You have to let that develop and see how high and how good it gets.

Randolph is 6'11 with a 7'3 wingspan. He's an elite over the rim athlete with a PG's handle. Not to mention he's got first team NBA defense type potential with his shotblocking and length and quickness, and he loves to get after it.

Neither of these guys are developed, but they are in the their cheap rookie contracts.

The ability to add a max level FA to a core of talent like Felton/Douglas/AR/Gallo/Amare (at the least) is something teams salivate over. I would be thrilled to add Melo to that group. He can come play SG and get his money here next summer. THATS how you build a champion. Not by trading off your best pieces before they develop.

PG Felton
SG Melo 6'8
SF Gallo 6'10
PF AR 6'11
C Amare 6'10
bench: Douglas, Fields, Mosgov, etc

Thats how you compete w/ Mia, Bos, Orl, LA... with high caliber size, skill, talent, at EVERY position. EVERY position is a matchup problem for other teams on BOTH ends.

THATS what my goal would be as GM of the Knicks to build a title.

Getting start and surrounding them with role players is great when your stars are Kobe, Wade, Bron, Gasol, KG (prime), Duncan (prime), etc etc

Amare and Melo are great players, but they are not the catagory of the guys above, they just arent.

I give up LOL your expectations of Danilo Gallinari and Anthony Randolph are just crazy.

If you were in charge of Boston, you would still have Al Jefferson and Gerald Green. I just completely disagree with you on how to build a team. IMO, you build and win with Stars. You get your 3 Stars and then you get your role players. You don't win or build a team with 8 role players. Gallo and Randolph are not going to be Stars. They just aren't. I honestly don't see what you're seeing. I just don't think these two are that good.

Is it money? If so, he signs extension and forces trade to wherever - LAC, NJN, NY.

Is it money and NY right now? Signs extension while forcing trade - perhaps Denver gets one of AR/Gallo + Curry + Fields/Walker/low-level stuff.

Is it NY and championships? Then perhaps he takes a little less money and waits out the year knowing that he can get pretty much same as Bosh, LeBron (CBA dependent) and goes to NY without depleting the team and perhaps knowing that the Knicks could in turn go after CP3 with what they have left.

martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:

martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

20ppg, 11rpg, 4 apg, 55% FGs IS a superstar to me. Oh wait. David Lee plays ZERO defense. Tell me you give Carmello a pass because he read the David Lee manual on how to defend.

Melo is 2 time all star who has advanced in the playoffs once.

He can carry the scoring load for your team. Gallo and AR cant.

We dont need guys who can score. We need size, skill, depth and defense.

You missing the point. Melo is better than AR and Gallo, but we dont need to trade those guys for him, and we shouldnt.

If the goal is to win a title trading for Melo ensures that wont happen. Melo takes up 1-2 of your best young high ceiling players AND eats up all your cap space.

If we wants to come here he can next year. Hell, I'm not even sure I would want time. I would rather use the cap space on Marc Gasol, Horford, Dalembert maybe... maybe Caron Butler, Jason Richardson. Get a stopper like Shane Battier to play SG/SF. We can do that and keep AR/Gallo who are rotation building block players with all star potential.

Sergio.. your Isiah Thomas all over again. Sure... Melo makes us better, hes an all star, he's a shiney new toy and he gets you futher from winning a title here, not closer.

LOL I'm no Isiah Thomas. I'm trading two role players for 1 elite SuperStar.

Is Melo an elite superstar cause he scores a lot? Does he play D? Make those around him better?

Carmelo Anthony is not David Lee on defense. And yes, he does make players around him better. Where was Denver before he got there? The Nuggets are a 30 win team without him, even if they have Danilo Gallinari and Anthony Randolph.

Melo no Lee? That aint saying much, but what you may be implying is that his D isn't really all that good and for the most part he is certainly no lockdown player and even considered for any of the all-defensive teams.

Trying to think of a player who was much more effective being around him and can't come up with any... care to share?

all summer guys were calling David Lee a stud & saying we'd be absolutely nuts not to extend him to a 6 year $80M extension... now that we traded him for AR he's just some dude who averaged numbers on a crappy team to those same individuals who were hyping him up for the longest & now AR is an untouchable... gotta love the turning of the tides.

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:

martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

20ppg, 11rpg, 4 apg, 55% FGs IS a superstar to me. Oh wait. David Lee plays ZERO defense. Tell me you give Carmello a pass because he read the David Lee manual on how to defend.

Melo is 2 time all star who has advanced in the playoffs once.

He can carry the scoring load for your team. Gallo and AR cant.

We dont need guys who can score. We need size, skill, depth and defense.

You missing the point. Melo is better than AR and Gallo, but we dont need to trade those guys for him, and we shouldnt.

If the goal is to win a title trading for Melo ensures that wont happen. Melo takes up 1-2 of your best young high ceiling players AND eats up all your cap space.

If we wants to come here he can next year. Hell, I'm not even sure I would want time. I would rather use the cap space on Marc Gasol, Horford, Dalembert maybe... maybe Caron Butler, Jason Richardson. Get a stopper like Shane Battier to play SG/SF. We can do that and keep AR/Gallo who are rotation building block players with all star potential.

Sergio.. your Isiah Thomas all over again. Sure... Melo makes us better, hes an all star, he's a shiney new toy and he gets you futher from winning a title here, not closer.

LOL I'm no Isiah Thomas. I'm trading two role players for 1 elite SuperStar.

Is Melo an elite superstar cause he scores a lot? Does he play D? Make those around him better?

Carmelo Anthony is not David Lee on defense. And yes, he does make players around him better. Where was Denver before he got there? The Nuggets are a 30 win team without him, even if they have Danilo Gallinari and Anthony Randolph.

Melo no Lee? That aint saying much, but what you may be implying is that his D isn't really all that good and for the most part he is certainly no lockdown player and even considered for any of the all-defensive teams.

Trying to think of a player who was much more effective being around him and can't come up with any... care to share?

all summer guys were calling David Lee a stud & saying we'd be absolutely nuts not to extend him to a 6 year $80M extension... now that we traded him for AR he's just some dude who averaged numbers on a crappy team to those same individuals who were hyping him up for the longest & now AR is an untouchable... gotta love the turning of the tides.

yeah but you are comparing apples to oranges.

AR has upside and doesn't have an $80M contract. I wouldn't give AR an $80 contract, and that's what Dave has. That's not a turning of the tides, that's 2 completely different things.

And AR is not untouchable. Most are saying that they would not trade AR AND Gallo and more to go after Melo.

i already answered you but there are plenty of posters saying AR & Gallo are both untouchable & would not include either of them in a deal for Melo... who do u think i've been arguing against for the past couple weeks?

iSergio wrote:Carmelo Anthony IS a SuperStar. Stats don't always tell the whole story. You think David Lee is a Star and he's not.

followed by

iSergio wrote:28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

just thought that was funny.

seems like there's 3 camps

1. I don't want Melo. He's a one dimensional scorer. He doesn't make his teammates better. Y'all are just blinded by the 28 points a game.

2. I don't want to TRADE for Melo, but I'd def. take him as a FA. Let's let Gallo and Randolph develop to see what we have.

3. Melo is worth getting even if it means trading both Gallo AND Anthony Randolph.

Camp # 2 makes the most sense to me.

Melo isn't exactly David Lee because it looks like he can defend when he wants to but it's safe to say his defensive prowess isn't exactly something he's know for.

Is Melo a superstar?

To me a superstar is someone who is elite on both ends of the court and knows how to make the correct play.

Lebron = an elite level superstar.

He can affect a game by scoring, by setting up teamates, and while he's not quite all world defensively he's shown he def. cares about defense (not giving up on fastbreaks and running guys down to block them from behind). He can affect the game with multiple tools, not just putting up 50. Jamal Crawford can put up 50 but that doesn't make him anything close to an elite level superstar.

Kobe = an elite level superstar

He can score if he needs to. Melo is similar to Kobe in that he can score every which way. Both Melo and Kobe are better scorers than Lebron cuz Lebron has 0 post moves.

However Kobe has shown he can be a gifted passer (wraparound to shaq, setting up Pau, etc) with a ridiculously high basketball IQ. He has without question shown he can be an elite defender. His work ethic is legendary like Jordan's.

Tim Duncan in his prime = elite level superstar
KG in his prime = elite level superstar
Hakeem in his prime = elite level superstar

All these guys were known for being elite players on BOTH ends of the floor. Great with setting an example for their teammates.

Carmelo = elite level scorer without a question. I've seen him defend tenaciously but not every game like a KG. I haven't really seen him set up teammates but there is something to be said for a guy who draws double teams making things easier for his teammates.

However Melo seems to be more of a guy who will try to score through a double team the majority of the time vs making the obvious pass to a teammates for an easy bucket.

Can Melo could develop the other aspects of his game:

- defense. will he buy into trying to become an elite defender and getting everyone else on the team to buy into it?

- leadership. Chauncey is the leader on the Nuggets. Not a knock on Melo or proof that he can't be a leader. Just a fact that so far he hasn't really show that.

- demonstrating that not only can he score..he can be an elite offensive player not just an elite scorer.

There aren't many guys in the league at any given time that I would casually throw a superstar label on. Maybe by some other people's standards Melo is a superstar. He can definitely become one but right now he falls just short and heads up the next level of guys.

It's a tough decision for DW to make. I don't see how it's so easy to decide he's worth it or not worth it without a lot of thought.

And I'll throw it out there. Melo so far...doesn't project to be even as good as Scottie Pippen. Yeah I said it.
Take Scottie in his prime, pair him with Amare. Keep whoever is better out of Gallo/Randolph. Maybe get lucky with Chris Paul I'll go to war with those guys vs any team in the league.

btw Sergio u should have some kinda long term bet with fishmike on what AR eventually ends up becoming..closer to Lamar Odom or closer to Stromile Swift?

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:

martin wrote:

iSergio wrote:

fishmike wrote:

iSergio wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

20ppg, 11rpg, 4 apg, 55% FGs IS a superstar to me. Oh wait. David Lee plays ZERO defense. Tell me you give Carmello a pass because he read the David Lee manual on how to defend.

Melo is 2 time all star who has advanced in the playoffs once.

He can carry the scoring load for your team. Gallo and AR cant.

We dont need guys who can score. We need size, skill, depth and defense.

You missing the point. Melo is better than AR and Gallo, but we dont need to trade those guys for him, and we shouldnt.

If the goal is to win a title trading for Melo ensures that wont happen. Melo takes up 1-2 of your best young high ceiling players AND eats up all your cap space.

If we wants to come here he can next year. Hell, I'm not even sure I would want time. I would rather use the cap space on Marc Gasol, Horford, Dalembert maybe... maybe Caron Butler, Jason Richardson. Get a stopper like Shane Battier to play SG/SF. We can do that and keep AR/Gallo who are rotation building block players with all star potential.

Sergio.. your Isiah Thomas all over again. Sure... Melo makes us better, hes an all star, he's a shiney new toy and he gets you futher from winning a title here, not closer.

LOL I'm no Isiah Thomas. I'm trading two role players for 1 elite SuperStar.

Is Melo an elite superstar cause he scores a lot? Does he play D? Make those around him better?

Carmelo Anthony is not David Lee on defense. And yes, he does make players around him better. Where was Denver before he got there? The Nuggets are a 30 win team without him, even if they have Danilo Gallinari and Anthony Randolph.

Melo no Lee? That aint saying much, but what you may be implying is that his D isn't really all that good and for the most part he is certainly no lockdown player and even considered for any of the all-defensive teams.

Trying to think of a player who was much more effective being around him and can't come up with any... care to share?

all summer guys were calling David Lee a stud & saying we'd be absolutely nuts not to extend him to a 6 year $80M extension... now that we traded him for AR he's just some dude who averaged numbers on a crappy team to those same individuals who were hyping him up for the longest & now AR is an untouchable... gotta love the turning of the tides.

yeah but you are comparing apples to oranges.

AR has upside and doesn't have an $80M contract. I wouldn't give AR an $80 contract, and that's what Dave has. That's not a turning of the tides, that's 2 completely different things.

And AR is not untouchable. Most are saying that they would not trade AR AND Gallo and more to go after Melo.

i already answered you but there are plenty of posters saying AR & Gallo are both untouchable & would not include either of them in a deal for Melo... who do u think i've been arguing against for the past couple weeks?

no f'ing clue cause I still dont see anyone who says they wouldn't do Gallo+Curry for Melo. Or AR+Curry for Melo.

Martin.. I wouldnt do that trade. There is no reason to. Why give up a chip for a guy who will sign here outright? We just dont need to do that.

Sergio you still dont get it. Im not expecting Gallo and AR to be all stars next year. I expect them to be role players next year. To play with good veteran players like Amare and Felton and learn how to win games and continue to grow as players.

What makes these guys untouchable to me is they are high ceiling players in rookie contracts and I have a team with max cap space next year.

Sergio, saying you can get a 6'11 player who can be a top flight defender and play 4 positions with the MLE is idiotic.

I would make the trade, but I wouldnt make it now. The only justification for doing this trade now is your afraid Melo wont be available in the offseason. But the flipside is I am not even sure Melo is the player I want.

My first choice would be a true center. The one time Melo actually won a playoff series Den had that trio of Kmart/Camby/Nene up front. Gallo is SF for me and AR/Amare are 4s. Maybe Dalembert, Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol. Your assuming Melo is a good fit here. Lets wait and see, THAT wont cost us anything.

LOL Anthony Randolph is not a top flight defender and he can't play 4 positions. I thought your David Lee love was out of control but you're reaching a new level my dude. He is not THAT good! He'll be Birdman if he works hard and stays healthy and accepts a role. He doesn't have the talent or body to be as good as you want him to be.

subzero0 wrote:Yea, I started thinking about this. I think even with Melo we wont really have enough to become a dynasty, which is what we are really after right?

correctamuno