BRIGGS wrote:

TMS wrote:

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Amare @ 20 and Carmelo @ 23 is a losing proposition. No team can pay any two guys like that unless they were able to move their payroll to 100mm$ and we would not be able to do that for years--way to late for it to mean anything. On top of which we have 0 idea what the new CBB will be--could be worse.

I think the cap space next year could yield a bevy of new talent--doesnt mean it has to be max player or star--not does the *BIG3* concept mean much--in NBA history really very little. I think out of the combo of AR Gallo an Chandler people will be very surprised at the combination of their production collectively. I really believe unless you are talking Shaq in prime Kobe etc.. that a team concept is the way to go.

You can see the obvious posturing in the media by th Nuggets. I still cannot believe or understand some knick fans that they dont understand once we get Carmelo--that is it--and the reason why Denver is posturing is because they want every frikin young asset we have---they dont want gallo(nor would i give him up)theyre going to want ar gallo and chandler--ALL OF THEM.

I think people are missing that point.. it is just not going to be GAllo or AR, it is going to be, back up the truck and give us all three young prospects....

even if either Gallo or AR ever turns out to be as good as Melo, you're going to be looking at having to extend those guys to lucrative contracts themselves... so how does that change matters? you'd still have 2 guys taking up the bulk of the cap & having to deal with dolling out the rest to the support players... do you really think teams like the Oklahoma City Thunder are worried about how they'll be able to manage after Kevin Durant & Russell Westbrook end up getting contract extensions? & they're in a small market at that... this entire line of reasoning is ass backwards, & i don't say that to offend... it just doesn't make sense how people around here could possibly advocate trading away assets to clear cap space & yet not willing to trade away assets to acquire a living, breathing superstar player in his prime.

TMS--if Chandler Gallo and AR turn out as good as I think they are---moving up payroll is fine--its a natural progression and we can control it as we own their rights. If they feel that they want to move Chandler at this deadline for picks or assets if they feel he's not the right piece or wait and S+T or even extend--we will see. But this team has horses that need to play together--maybe we get Carmelo Anthony next year for free in terms of FA --if we can get him giving away NOTHING and for the same price as LBJ got--that is the best avenue--that is my first choice. That way we keep our horses and can enhance the team.

we would own Carmelo's rights too if we traded for him... you said "IF" Gallo & AR turn out to be as good as you think they are... well i already know how good Melo is & i can tell u right now he's better than both those guys hands down, it's not even a question... so what's the difference in tying up a player to big money who you already know is a superstar as opposed to holding onto unproven prospects that you THINK can be superstars so that you can one day tie those same guys up to big money deals? the difference is the level of certainty... you wanna pass up on acquiring a superstar player because you don't wanna lose out on seeing Gallo & AR develop & hopefully one day become star players themselves... that to me makes no sense... this is not baseball where the highest bidder wins out in free agency & we can use our large market appeal to lure FA's... the supposed "lure" of the bright lights of NYC is way overrated by Knicks fans & has been for quite some time... adding Melo to this team would be an instant upgrade, there are zero guarantees he would sign here in free agency next summer, none... we went through this whole scenario w/Lebron & his whole marketing campaign throwing out hints left & right that he was intending to sign w/the Knicks in 2010, & he ended up in Miami... fool me once, shame on you... you all know the rest.

tkf wrote:

TMS wrote:

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Amare @ 20 and Carmelo @ 23 is a losing proposition. No team can pay any two guys like that unless they were able to move their payroll to 100mm$ and we would not be able to do that for years--way to late for it to mean anything. On top of which we have 0 idea what the new CBB will be--could be worse.

I think the cap space next year could yield a bevy of new talent--doesnt mean it has to be max player or star--not does the *BIG3* concept mean much--in NBA history really very little. I think out of the combo of AR Gallo an Chandler people will be very surprised at the combination of their production collectively. I really believe unless you are talking Shaq in prime Kobe etc.. that a team concept is the way to go.

You can see the obvious posturing in the media by th Nuggets. I still cannot believe or understand some knick fans that they dont understand once we get Carmelo--that is it--and the reason why Denver is posturing is because they want every frikin young asset we have---they dont want gallo(nor would i give him up)theyre going to want ar gallo and chandler--ALL OF THEM.

I think people are missing that point.. it is just not going to be GAllo or AR, it is going to be, back up the truck and give us all three young prospects....

even if either Gallo or AR ever turns out to be as good as Melo, you're going to be looking at having to extend those guys to lucrative contracts themselves... so how does that change matters? you'd still have 2 guys taking up the bulk of the cap & having to deal with dolling out the rest to the support players... do you really think teams like the Oklahoma City Thunder are worried about how they'll be able to manage after Kevin Durant & Russell Westbrook end up getting contract extensions? & they're in a small market at that... this entire line of reasoning is ass backwards, & i don't say that to offend... it just doesn't make sense how people around here could possibly advocate trading away assets to clear cap space & yet not willing to trade away assets to acquire a living, breathing superstar player in his prime.

that's not a good reason to trade them... the fact that they will be our talent makes it that much better.... And who knows maybe they give us a hometown discount like dirk does the mavs... what I do know for sure is guys like melo want every max penny they can get. In the end, anyone comming to NY, it is about the dollars, yea, I am sure they want to play here, but it is always about the dollars...

do you really think teams like the Oklahoma City Thunder are worried about how they'll be able to manage after Kevin Durant & Russell Westbrook end up getting contract extensions?

And neither are they worried about trying to trade them everytime some Big name player says he wants to leave his team..... As knick fans we have to get out of that line of thinking... At some point we are going to have to develop something of our own.. listen to GM's around the league.. steve kerr made a great point.. You want to get Good fA's when you can, but developing good young talent on cheap rookie deals is paramount to building a good team...

come on dude... enough about hometown discounts... i heard that same line of argument from y'all about how David Lee was gonna re-sign w/us for pennies on the dollar because he loved NYC so much, & he ended up signing a 6 year $80M contract before he got dealt.

as for the Thunder, Kevin Durant is already being paid & is already a superstar... but if the Heat came to them & offered up Lebron for Westbrook & some of their other young players, do u really see them turning it down?

Gallo, AR & Chan may not be on his level but they fill out important aspects of what a team needs to be balanced n successful. I want to see how they develop 1st. We'd have no shot to find a player with AR's skills, size and athletic gifts that has his defensive disposition, certainly not Melo. We won't have issues scoring the ball which is all Melo brings. All 3 of our guys play on both ends very well. Just not in a hurry to give that up.

crzymdups wrote:i want to keep AR at all costs.

if we could do a melo trade based on wilson and gallo, i would strongly consider it.

Felton
Azubuike
Melo
Amare
AR

is a team that can contend for a top 3 spot in the East for the next 4-5 years. and if we can later flip AR and Felton for Chris Paul...

i agree w/u, i think out of the 2, AR probably is the better complement to Melo than Gallo, but if DEN insists on AR & lets us hold onto Gallo i still say u have to do it... if we can hold onto at least 1 of those 2 i think u have to make the move & guarantee yourself another superstar to play alongside Amare... we can't keep waiting forever to become good... it's been 10 freakin' years already, it's time for us to be good again.

Here's a good post on TS% http://basketbloggers.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/true-shooting-percentage-and-its-usefulness/. TS% takes into account Free Throws and 3 pointers.

According to the above post, he's this (I agree):

Mid TS%, high FGA, high FTA- This guy is most likely a volume scorer. He can be used as a #1 option, however, he does not possess the talent to single-handedly do it night in and night out.

Here's a good analysis of Carmelo's efficiency: http://www.magicbasketball.net/2010/08/19/additional-commentary-on-carmelo-anthony/. Check his net +/- and his TS% vs Lebron. And for fans of basketball who feel Durant is a much better player than Melo - guess what, you're right.

knickstorrents wrote:Why are people so in love with Melo? IF this team needs scoring, he MIGHT fill a need (though on a net basis he doesn't give you that much. Check his true shooting percentage vs. other max players). What this team needs right now is a stable, defensive Center. Let this team play. If it becomes apparent that we lack scoring punch (which is highly doubtful) then I can see why we might want to trade for Melo.

Here's a good post on TS% http://basketbloggers.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/true-shooting-percentage-and-its-usefulness/. TS% takes into account Free Throws and 3 pointers.

According to the above post, he's this (I agree):

Mid TS%, high FGA, high FTA- This guy is most likely a volume scorer. He can be used as a #1 option, however, he does not possess the talent to single-handedly do it night in and night out.

Here's a good analysis of Carmelo's efficiency: http://www.magicbasketball.net/2010/08/19/additional-commentary-on-carmelo-anthony/. Check his net +/- and his TS% vs Lebron. And for fans of basketball who feel Durant is a much better player than Melo - guess what, you're right.

BRIGGS wrote:

TMS wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:Why are people so in love with Melo?

speaking for myself, i'm not in love w/Melo... in fact i don't even really like his style of play... but you're a sucker if you think Gallo or AR will grow into as good a player as he is IMO.

Im pretty sure that Denver wants more than just one player--would that makes any sense? I don't care if someone is better than the other guy--and no one knows what talent level Gallo or Randolph will be in their prime. I think their collective talents--their size their diversity of skills for the team give the Knicks a tough match up. We honestly do not have draft picks that are attractive--so what is left. I will tell you--Randolph Gallo Chandler in lieu of no picks. If you were Denvers GM what would you ask for--what is acceptable--really I dont care about a draft pick in 2014--this is my job today right? So either the Knicks pay a very high price ON TOP of which they lose ALL flexibility and we accept the team that will be here---OR we stay patient and haev it all. If Carmelo Anthony wants to be a Knick--than he will do what LBJ and Bosh did--stay patient for a year. We cannot have 2 guys making over 20mm(unless Shaq Hakeem etc.. in their prime)--wont work how we are set up.

i couldn't agree more. if melo wants to seriously battle lebron/wade/bosh then he'll come here after this year so he can play WITH gallo and ar, instead of without them. everything we know about donnie is that he's patient, i don't think he makes that trade anyway.

TMS wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:Why are people so in love with Melo?

speaking for myself, i'm not in love w/Melo... in fact i don't even really like his style of play... but you're a sucker if you think Gallo or AR will grow into as good a player as he is IMO.

then why bother with melo... if you don't like his style of play, why give up that kind of potential? you don't know what kind of player these two kids will grow into.. what we do know now that gallo is a pretty good player and Ar has shown flashes.... these are not 4th year players who are struggling to find their way.. they are guys who basically played parts of two seasons , and during which time have shown the type of game that got GM's high on them in the first place... melo is not the final piece to a championship here... sorry man... if we need him that much..we sign him as a FA...

I think Gallo and Randolph can become really good players but I dont see them making that leap anytime soon to all star status.

fishmike wrote:thank god for a few things.

1) Walsh is still our GM. This guy COVETED Gallo AND Randolph. As it turns out he had Randolph in for a secret workout on draft day and only got scared off because AR weighed in at 175 pounds. The other guy they loved was Gallo. Now DW has them both, and he's not going to pawn them off for a guy who does nothing but score and doesnt make the Knicks a title contender

2) Walsh traded Jalen Rose for Artest/Mercer/Miller. 3 guys who helped turn the Pacers around to playoff team. Size and depth. Melo is a better scorer than Rose was but Rose created alot of open shots and played point forward. Size + Depth + Skill is >>> than one guy. clearly some here dont see that. Thank god Walsh does.

3) Melo isnt a top 10 player, he's played in 2 all star games, he's advanced in the playoffs once and he's played on some pretty solid and deep teams. This guy is NOT making us a title contender. This is a $$$ move that puts us in the playoffs every year and out of the playoffs in round 2 every year.

4) So what if we have to pay Gallo/AR if they become stars. We dont have to pay them next year which means we can still manage max cap space and add a star player next to AR/Gallo/Felton/Amare/Douglas + draft picks. Thats how you build a champ.

- Walsh also coveted Jordan Hill

- Melo is a top 10 player

- We have two young guys who had season ending injuries at VERY young ages. Their health is a big concern long term.

fishmike wrote:thank god for a few things.

1) Walsh is still our GM. This guy COVETED Gallo AND Randolph. As it turns out he had Randolph in for a secret workout on draft day and only got scared off because AR weighed in at 175 pounds. The other guy they loved was Gallo. Now DW has them both, and he's not going to pawn them off for a guy who does nothing but score and doesnt make the Knicks a title contender

2) Walsh traded Jalen Rose for Artest/Mercer/Miller. 3 guys who helped turn the Pacers around to playoff team. Size and depth. Melo is a better scorer than Rose was but Rose created alot of open shots and played point forward. Size + Depth + Skill is >>> than one guy. clearly some here dont see that. Thank god Walsh does.

3) Melo isnt a top 10 player, he's played in 2 all star games, he's advanced in the playoffs once and he's played on some pretty solid and deep teams. This guy is NOT making us a title contender. This is a $$$ move that puts us in the playoffs every year and out of the playoffs in round 2 every year.

4) So what if we have to pay Gallo/AR if they become stars. We dont have to pay them next year which means we can still manage max cap space and add a star player next to AR/Gallo/Felton/Amare/Douglas + draft picks. Thats how you build a champ.

Very good post, FM. Not to mention, we will have bird rights on Gallo and AR, and our owner is not going to quibble about luxury taxes. Let's have our cake and eat it, too. If we lose Melo to another team, so be it. They will have acquired a terrific scorer (one of the best) who doesn't do too much else to help his team win.