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Ranking the East right now
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sidsanders
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8/28/2010  10:24 PM
nixluva wrote:
Panos wrote:
nixluva wrote:Oh You too!?! Well instead of just making empty statements why not layout some rationale for why you think i'm wrong specifically. This is a forum where we're regularly asked to explain our positions. I've made several posts explaining mine and backing up my opinions for why i'm predicting a good team. Just what did I say that didn't make sense or wasn't supported by stats, player history, style of play, team makeup etc.? This crap about my posts always being the same is fine, but why not refute my position with something substantial of your own. All of you guys are doing what's been easy for the last few years. It's easy to just sit back and say the team stinks and won't win simply based on recent history.

My predictions have been only slightly more positive than a lot of other members of this forum. It's not like i've been saying the team is gonna win 50 every year. Do the last two years even count when we all knew that the team was gonna look for every opportunity to tear the roster down? I mean how serious could anyone really take predictions from the last two years? I don't think I was off base with what i've said so far. So now instead of attacking my past predictions, why not show us why you don't have faith in this current roster being successful this year. Some of my reasoning is just above, where's yours? You haven't written anything of substance in this thread yet.


Yeah, me too.
I'm not saying you're wrong about this coming year. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
In fact, I'm excited about it, whether we win 50 or not.
But you overrate the team every single year since I've been reading this forum, and come back every year and do it again.
You want a prediction? Here's one. In the Melo thread this morning you wrote this:

nixluva wrote:I just can't be worried about what this guy does. We have a young team and a comfortable cap structure. We watched this guy not win a title or even get to the finals with some really talented teams. Heck his supporting cast has been better than Lebrons. Even without Melo the Nuggets are still a good team. SO why do we gut our team just to bring in this guy? I'm not saying that I don't like his talent, but he may be a bit overrated.

I'll bet the house that if the Knicks acquire Melo, you'll be jumping up and down how great Melo is, and now you're so happy we're a lock to get to the ECF!

Your posts are all the same man, no objectivity, Knicks can do no wrong.
You're just a cheerleader jumping up and down waving your pom-poms.
I got tired of reading them long ago, and pretty much skip over them now.

I don't think you've seriously read my posts cuz if you did, you'd at least have noticed that I haven't in fact liked everything about the team and never have. I'm a guy that lives on the glass half full side of life and so YEAH, I tend to TALK about the positives more than the negatives, but that's not the same as saying there are no negatives. If I was all pollyanna then why not predict we'd win the division or some other unrealistic outcome. No instead I've been a guy that said 45 wins when other said 40 or 39. That's not really that big of a difference especially since in most cases there was a chance that the team could've came together and won a few more games if 1. Donnie didn't make trades. 2. Donnie actually looked to bring in someone to get the team over the hump. That's not what the last 2 years were about and so the team wasn't given the help it may have needed. Instead we got guys with talent, witness how they played on new teams they went to, but as I said Donnie was looking to break the team down, which I agree with.

You want to tell me that i'm wrong about what the team could've done in terms of wins if we didn't trade Zach and Jamal or even the Jared trade last year that sucked the defense out of the middle of this team. Or that if Donnie wanted to help this team win, but sacrifice some cap flexibility, then he could've done something about the PG position. This team really wasn't that far off from being competitive enough to get an 8th seed. Now it's easy to just say "OH NIX is always wrong" after the way the team was stripped the last 2 years, but I stick by my feelings about the talent this team had and that it should've done more.

Now in regards to the current situation. I still am waiting for someone to layout why this team can't do well as some of us have been predicting. Outside of reading something convincing, i'll just have to go with my opinion of the talent we've collected.

amare returns to complaining about mike, doesnt go all out every game. ar doesnt play as well as folks hope, gallo doesnt improve, chandler doesnt improve. felton remains an avg pg. team lacks any chemistry. bench performs poorly. worst avenue could be multiple injuries. thats a lot of the variables going against the knicks...

point being high win totals are one possibility, as are lower ones. the knicks, to me, have a lot of variables and why so many see such different outcomes. if the variables turn in the knicks favor, they can do well. things dont all play out to the best, its gonna be a mixed bag. -- lower win totals.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
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tj23
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8/28/2010  10:38 PM
Vmart wrote:I would put the Knicks around the 8-9-10 area 36-37 wins. I think we are overrating the Knicks. To many players are unknown commodities and there is no evidence as to know if some have turned the corner. Will Chandler, Gallo, AR improve. Will Mozgov be able to provide solid minutes at center position. You have Amare and the rest need to show what they have. I also have to put Felton in that group as he has to learn a new system and we need to see if he can master the system.

The key is Felton. We have to run the p&r effectively. But I figure if Duhon can work it for about half a season, then Felton should be alright, at least until we get cp3 lol jk
nixluva
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8/28/2010  11:41 PM
sidsanders wrote:
nixluva wrote:Now in regards to the current situation. I still am waiting for someone to layout why this team can't do well as some of us have been predicting. Outside of reading something convincing, i'll just have to go with my opinion of the talent we've collected.

amare returns to complaining about mike, doesnt go all out every game. ar doesnt play as well as folks hope, gallo doesnt improve, chandler doesnt improve. felton remains an avg pg. team lacks any chemistry. bench performs poorly. worst avenue could be multiple injuries. thats a lot of the variables going against the knicks...

point being high win totals are one possibility, as are lower ones. the knicks, to me, have a lot of variables and why so many see such different outcomes. if the variables turn in the knicks favor, they can do well. things dont all play out to the best, its gonna be a mixed bag. -- lower win totals.

Now see this is what i'm talking about. What you just did isn't laying out rational reasons why the Knicks shouldn't be considered a playoff contender in the second tier behind Mia, Bos & Orl. The key point is I'm not even talking about everything going perfectly or better than expected. I'm basing my opinion on guys just doing what they do. Amar'e being Amar'e. Felton, Gallo, Chan, AR & Turiaf being who they are, but collectively they will help each other to be more than the sum of the teams parts. Felton will be better because of Amar'e, Gallo etc.

1. You're going against the facts and proven history of what Amar'e has been as a player. Amar'e never complained about Mike when they were winning. Only after big playoff losses did this crap come up. Also some of his griping had to do with criticism coming his way for not playing harder on D. He tried to lay that off on MDA, but we all know that Defensive effort is on the player. In any case Amar'e seems to have matured a bit since then. I think there's a low chance that this would happen again.

2. Now all of a sudden we have to assume that none of our young players will improve. OK let's just say that they stay about where they were last year. Still that wouldn't be bad production, since Gallo and Chandler were avg. NBA players in terms of production. I just don't see that Gallo is gonna somehow stagnate. At least some modest amount of maturation in his game should be expected, since he's shown growth so far.

3. Felton has to go against history for PG's playing in Mike's system and doesn't put up better numbers. Now that would seem to be a stretch, since he's a PG that is known to thrive in an Uptempo style of play. Felton would also be surrounded by better talent than he's ever had since coming into the NBA. Unless somehow I missed the Bobcats having a player like Amar'e on the team. Again it could happen, but that degree of chance has to be low.

You're argument seems to be full of things that are worst case scenario and what's more not likely to happen based on history. Can it happen sure. Is it likely? I don't think it is. You can't make predictions based on what is likely to go wrong only. If that's the case then Miami is doomed that all 3 of the TRIO will get injured or some other horrible outcome, like a slap fight breaking out in the lockerroom and the TRIO no longer wanting to be friends.

Vmart
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8/29/2010  12:06 AM
tj23 wrote:
Vmart wrote:I would put the Knicks around the 8-9-10 area 36-37 wins. I think we are overrating the Knicks. To many players are unknown commodities and there is no evidence as to know if some have turned the corner. Will Chandler, Gallo, AR improve. Will Mozgov be able to provide solid minutes at center position. You have Amare and the rest need to show what they have. I also have to put Felton in that group as he has to learn a new system and we need to see if he can master the system.

The key is Felton. We have to run the p&r effectively. But I figure if Duhon can work it for about half a season, then Felton should be alright, at least until we get cp3 lol jk

Felton just as easily could revert to the poor shooting Felton before this past season.

nixluva
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8/29/2010  12:52 AM
Vmart wrote:
tj23 wrote:
Vmart wrote:I would put the Knicks around the 8-9-10 area 36-37 wins. I think we are overrating the Knicks. To many players are unknown commodities and there is no evidence as to know if some have turned the corner. Will Chandler, Gallo, AR improve. Will Mozgov be able to provide solid minutes at center position. You have Amare and the rest need to show what they have. I also have to put Felton in that group as he has to learn a new system and we need to see if he can master the system.

The key is Felton. We have to run the p&r effectively. But I figure if Duhon can work it for about half a season, then Felton should be alright, at least until we get cp3 lol jk

Felton just as easily could revert to the poor shooting Felton before this past season.


With Felton it may have been poor shot selection in the past. It looks like he got more selective. He took fewer shots and fewer 3's overall. If he stayed within himself that could easily account for his better %'s. That is something he could easily continue to do. Even if he turns out not to have quite as good a shooting year, there are still so many other things he does well that can help this team. We've got a lot of scoring elsewhere so the pressure shouldn't be on him to feel he has to score a lot. So long as he doesn't have a similarly sub career performance like Duhon did.
sidsanders
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8/29/2010  1:23 AM
nixluva wrote:
sidsanders wrote:
nixluva wrote:Now in regards to the current situation. I still am waiting for someone to layout why this team can't do well as some of us have been predicting. Outside of reading something convincing, i'll just have to go with my opinion of the talent we've collected.

amare returns to complaining about mike, doesnt go all out every game. ar doesnt play as well as folks hope, gallo doesnt improve, chandler doesnt improve. felton remains an avg pg. team lacks any chemistry. bench performs poorly. worst avenue could be multiple injuries. thats a lot of the variables going against the knicks...

point being high win totals are one possibility, as are lower ones. the knicks, to me, have a lot of variables and why so many see such different outcomes. if the variables turn in the knicks favor, they can do well. things dont all play out to the best, its gonna be a mixed bag. -- lower win totals.

Now see this is what i'm talking about. What you just did isn't laying out rational reasons why the Knicks shouldn't be considered a playoff contender in the second tier behind Mia, Bos & Orl. The key point is I'm not even talking about everything going perfectly or better than expected. I'm basing my opinion on guys just doing what they do. Amar'e being Amar'e. Felton, Gallo, Chan, AR & Turiaf being who they are, but collectively they will help each other to be more than the sum of the teams parts. Felton will be better because of Amar'e, Gallo etc.

1. You're going against the facts and proven history of what Amar'e has been as a player. Amar'e never complained about Mike when they were winning. Only after big playoff losses did this crap come up. Also some of his griping had to do with criticism coming his way for not playing harder on D. He tried to lay that off on MDA, but we all know that Defensive effort is on the player. In any case Amar'e seems to have matured a bit since then. I think there's a low chance that this would happen again.

2. Now all of a sudden we have to assume that none of our young players will improve. OK let's just say that they stay about where they were last year. Still that wouldn't be bad production, since Gallo and Chandler were avg. NBA players in terms of production. I just don't see that Gallo is gonna somehow stagnate. At least some modest amount of maturation in his game should be expected, since he's shown growth so far.

3. Felton has to go against history for PG's playing in Mike's system and doesn't put up better numbers. Now that would seem to be a stretch, since he's a PG that is known to thrive in an Uptempo style of play. Felton would also be surrounded by better talent than he's ever had since coming into the NBA. Unless somehow I missed the Bobcats having a player like Amar'e on the team. Again it could happen, but that degree of chance has to be low.

You're argument seems to be full of things that are worst case scenario and what's more not likely to happen based on history. Can it happen sure. Is it likely? I don't think it is. You can't make predictions based on what is likely to go wrong only. If that's the case then Miami is doomed that all 3 of the TRIO will get injured or some other horrible outcome, like a slap fight breaking out in the lockerroom and the TRIO no longer wanting to be friends.

you should reread what i said.... i was only offering up 1 of many scenarios of which i stated was probably the absolute worst (thats a lot of the variables going against the knicks...). you asked for how things could fall below 45+ wins, thats one way. my view is i havent any solid idea how this is gonna go. im willing to wait and see and as i noted -- i think the knicks have the most variables in play. this makes it hard to guess whats gonna happen till we see some preseason games and start to see whos gonna get some playing time, heck -- whats the real starting lineup.

whats the probability of the worst case -- low for sure. even in better cases, how does one factor in improvements/declines of the other teams? did all the current playoff teams in the east improve, get older/or worse? lots of factors. i would guess as of now with just the upgrades, min: 41-41. i would still rather wait and see how it goes. maybe these guys are ready to go right away and shock folks...

as noted: i think you are seeing so many diff takes cuz there are so many factors. going into last year, i thought they would win 30 --> they had very little change in personnel, came off a bad year. lot less factors to make that guess.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
nixluva
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8/29/2010  9:08 PM
WHen making predictions, you have to go mostly on what you KNOW about the team and individual players. The idea is that Amar'e has been consistently at a certain level of play. It's possible but not probable that he's gonna suddenly deviate from that and become a worse player. Yeah it could happen, but you don't base a prediction on the idea that he is gonna substantially drop from what he's been. Now with regard to the overall team, it's the same thing. The team IMO was held back by a horrible situation at PG last year and then made worse by the GM making moves to further clear cap and selfish attitudes from vets at the end of their contracts. Talent wise this team should've been better and if it was a normal year where you're actually trying to win, the Donnie would've made a move or two to improve the team. All of this will be completely turned around this year. Now we have a team with better size, balance and players. The players FIT the system and have played fast before, so that's less of an unknown than if they hadn't. Lots of good character guys with good reps vs. vets with history of problems wherever they've been.

I mean come on. At some point we have to go with the facts on the ground ad stop with this feeling that we're somehow cursed. It's not a curse just bad decision making by management. You bring in malcontents and you reap what you sow. Donnie has done a good job trying to fix those issues.
Again, just looking at the top 9 rotation players, this looks like a team that should be competitive with the 2nd tier playoff teams. Could it end up being worse than expected sure, but my prediction isn't based on every possible freak injury scenario or multiple players suddenly not playing like their career suggests they should. No Pro Analyst makes predictions that way so why should I? Being wrong isn't such a bad thing, i've got company in that area even among the pros. My analysis is still based on what I perceive as the fact of what this team should be capable of.

I like the roster make up and the intangibles of the roster too. Donnie has gone out of his way to make sure we have a good level of depth just in case of minor amounts of injury. So I think this team could end up anywhere from 4-7 spot in the playoffs this year. My guess is 5/6.

knickstorrents
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8/30/2010  4:04 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/30/2010  4:05 AM
nixluva wrote:Now in regards to the current situation. I still am waiting for someone to layout why this team can't do well as some of us have been predicting. Outside of reading something convincing, i'll just have to go with my opinion of the talent we've collected.

As currently constructed I'm a big fan of this team. The big X Factor here though is injury. A lot of our critical components are injury prone (AR, Gallinari), or have had major surgery (Amare, Kelenna, Walker), or were injured last year (Turiaf, Chandler). The only stable, injury free guys are Felton who is new, and Toney Douglas...

Whether D'Antoni likes it or not, I believe the rotation will be very deep due to necessity.

Rose is not the answer.
Cookdcokehop
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8/31/2010  11:44 AM
LeBron won 66 games with bum ass Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. If you think the Heat won't win over 66 games ur crazy.

Miami 73-9
Orlando 56-26
Milwaukee 47-35
Boston 47-35
Chicago 45-37
Atlanta 43-39
Knicks 42-40
Pacers 40-42

Cookdcokehop
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8/31/2010  11:54 AM
Every year we overrate the Knicks only to get disappointed. Alot of you didn't want Amare over D Lee but now that he is a Knick he is the messiah. Knicks will win 42 games or less bc our biggest issue is still here...we play horrible defense. You want to know why players love playing at MSG, it's because they know on that game they will raise their scoring averages. I don't believe Mozgov. You guys overrate the sh!t out of Randolph, when he just reminds be of Jared Keffries on the Wizards. The key to us being great next yr is Chandler. If he can significantly raise his level a play (which I think he will) we win 42 games or more. If not, the Morey has a good pick.

Oh and the Heat will win 73 games. If the don't the mods of this site can delete my account.

nixluva
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8/31/2010  1:22 PM
Cookdcokehop wrote:Every year we overrate the Knicks only to get disappointed. Alot of you didn't want Amare over D Lee but now that he is a Knick he is the messiah. Knicks will win 42 games or less bc our biggest issue is still here...we play horrible defense. You want to know why players love playing at MSG, it's because they know on that game they will raise their scoring averages. I don't believe Mozgov. You guys overrate the sh!t out of Randolph, when he just reminds be of Jared Keffries on the Wizards. The key to us being great next yr is Chandler. If he can significantly raise his level a play (which I think he will) we win 42 games or more. If not, the Morey has a good pick.

Oh and the Heat will win 73 games. If the don't the mods of this site can delete my account.

How do you KNOW that this years Knicks team will be horrible on defense? I disagree, since almost every player we've brought in is statistically better defensively than the player they're replacing in our lineup. Amar'e/Turiaf > Lee, Jared, Barron etc. Felton > Duhon
Further, collectively, this roster will have much better balance and size, athletic ability and shooting. We might even be better rebounding the ball. That is hard to say, but I think we have more natural rebounders than before. We really only had Lee before.

In terms of the overall defense, I think that having Felton will help everyone else since he at the least isn't a matador at his position. This helps the bigs and everyone else, since the switching won't be so drastic as it was in the past. We'll likely still play a switching D, but there should be more ability to stay in front of their men, forcing the ball towards help. If guys aren't just waltzing into the paint that will help Amar'e, Turiaf, AR & Timo to be more effective on D as well.

I just don't see this team being as bad as it was. We may not be a great defensive team, but if we can move up into the middle of the league that would be a great improvement and enough to get this team into a good playoff spot.

Ranking the East right now

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