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OT: Ground zero mosque. For it or against, or inbetween?
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DurzoBlint
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8/19/2010  2:54 PM
there was ...I can't remember the exact details but it was the Pope prior to John PaulIII

He wrote that such contact brought both parties closer to god.

That sound like not only knew what was happening but the perv's (not painted all clergy with this brush)

the fact that you can't even have an unrelated thread without some tool here bringing him up make me think that rational minds are few and far between. Bunch of emotionally weak, angst riddled people. I mean, how many times can you argue the same shyt
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fishmike
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8/19/2010  3:14 PM
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:I think the question in a lot of people's minds are

does Islam = jihad?

does jihad = forceful conversion or killing of non believers?

From what little I know of Islam..that's not the case though obviously there are extremist sects where jihad = your duty as a a Muslim.

Has the head of the mosque come out and said he does not condone violent jihad? If he did would that help?

it would for me.

Part of my problem has been enough outspoken anger or denouncement by prominent muslim leaders over the fundamentalists. While suicide bombers are killing in the name of jihad where are the muslim leaders saying these criminals are not muslims but are themselves renegade infidels killing innocents? I would like to hear more of that somewhere sometime. Seems to be lacking. Thats just my perception.

Now they have come out and condemned. I'm not saying they condone it. Do an ounce of research and you will find stuff like this:
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335

But its not enough in my opinion... ok for the US but thats about it. On a global level its painfully lacking. Except for a handful of mental cases I do not view US Muslims as any more threat than anyone else. All par for the course.

Show me an area run by an Islamic leader and those are the places where women are repressed and mutilated, where people are stoned to death for petty crimes, where suicide bombers and terror cells breed and brew... you get the idea. Is that my bias? Maybe so. Thats just my perception.

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Ira
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8/19/2010  3:16 PM
Freedom of religion is more American than the Republican Party.
DrAlphaeus
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8/19/2010  3:31 PM
I really don't like the term "Ground Zero" used for the WTC site. Hiroshima was the original "ground zero". Just a personal pet peeve.

This Islamic center is not on the actual WTC site, it's 2 blocks away. And the descriptions seem to make it more like a YMCA.

It's used to be a Burlington Coat Factory and has been vacant since 2001. Maybe this will bring businesses to life down in that block.

I'm not in the habit of supporting Bloomberg & a real estate developer, but their comments have been the most on-point about this. If the Community Board says it's OK and they get the funding and permits, so be it.

As for the 9/11 terrorists, they were a gang of spoiled, murderous Saudi hypocrites using religion to make a cynical geo-political suicide attack on a nation that welcomed them. To use them as a yardstick for all Muslims does everyone a disservice.

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Nalod
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8/19/2010  3:32 PM

Old saying:

"Ignorance breeds fear"

martin
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8/19/2010  3:38 PM
izybx wrote:Im against it. Its tacky, inconsiderate, and wrong. The people who are building it are completely heartless and have no tact.

That being said they of course have every right to do it. Just as they have the right to build it, we Americans should also have the right to oppose it without being called bigots, racists, and islamaphobes.

i am ambivalent for the whole community center being built and really have no problem with it. But I also understand the viewpoint of the above, not sure I agree with it.

Unfortunately that's not position a lot of those who are against it have been claiming.

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fishmike
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8/19/2010  3:47 PM
DurzoBlint wrote:there was ...I can't remember the exact details but it was the Pope prior to John PaulIII

He wrote that such contact brought both parties closer to god.

That sound like not only knew what was happening but the perv's (not painted all clergy with this brush)

you gotta do better than that.
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Marv
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8/19/2010  3:55 PM
it's an opportunity all the way around. have the leaders of the mosque come out publically for what they stand for and what they're promoting. build a multi-religious/cultural coalition promoting learning, peace, tolerance, etc.
fishmike
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8/19/2010  3:59 PM
Marv wrote:it's an opportunity all the way around. have the leaders of the mosque come out publically for what they stand for and what they're promoting. build a multi-religious/cultural coalition promoting learning, peace, tolerance, etc.
hopefully they capitalize on it
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DrAlphaeus
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8/19/2010  4:04 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/19/2010  4:05 PM
I'm going to bring up a sports parallel:

I was really against the Brooklyn arena for a bunch of reasons. Not "protest in the street" against it, but maybe "create a thread" against it. I thought the Nets should stay in Newark.

Partly because a project like that uses public money and resources, and often false promises & stats are made by developers & politicians are what used to get these projects approved by various boards. It's going to get built. So now I just hope it really does everything positive for that community like it says it will, and hope that a watchdog is out there (maybe we all should take turns at watchdog) staying vigilant and keeping the developers & politicians accountable.

Now obviously, the Barclays Center isn't something that deals with life and death like the attacks on the WTC. (Though remember the reports about Barclays Bank being founded in the 18th-century on African slave trade profits.) But I think there are parallels here. Opponents have the right to protest lawfully. IMHO, it would behoove the community to keep them accountable, and take them up on their offer to be a agent of change for the better.

I hate this issue is a national political football. Because beginning from the phrase "Ground Zero mosque" the details of this project have been lost to the public. If they said "YMCA-like Islamic center in the WTC area" I wonder would that change some peoples perceptions?

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izybx
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8/19/2010  6:10 PM
martin wrote:
izybx wrote:Im against it. Its tacky, inconsiderate, and wrong. The people who are building it are completely heartless and have no tact.

That being said they of course have every right to do it. Just as they have the right to build it, we Americans should also have the right to oppose it without being called bigots, racists, and islamaphobes.

i am ambivalent for the whole community center being built and really have no problem with it. But I also understand the viewpoint of the above, not sure I agree with it.

Unfortunately that's not position a lot of those who are against it have been claiming.

Theres always going to be people who are unreasonable in any debate when race or religion are involved. Most polls in the city are showing over 60% of new yorkers are against the location of the mosque. Are these people bigots? I dont think so. The government should not be getting involved in this. The Republicans, President Obama, and Harry Reid should be keeping out of what is a local matter that involves religion. Local New Yorkers should be able to express their views without people insinuating that it is because of some deep seated prejudice.

Two blocks is too close. I would think that the people who chose this area would be more sensitive to what happened right down the street. I just dont understand why it HAS to be there, and since I haven't heard anyone say why it MUST be there (financial, a large muslim community in the area) I have to infer that the location near Ground Zero is the reason. And I dont want anything American hating islamic fundamentalists can view as a trophy near ground zero.

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loweyecue
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8/19/2010  6:55 PM
This is a hard one. I think the Muslims have the right to build a mosque over there. I also thnk Religion was invented to rule the masses through fear and intimidation and I mean "religion" in the broadest sense of the word. I am basically opposed to any type of construction that is grounded in religion. So yes I am opposed to having a mosque being built there, I am also opposed to having a church, temple or synagogue being built there for the exact same reason. Religion sucks -- not trying to offend people, just my 2c.

If you believe in a religion and want to practice it more power to you, I have no intention of keeping other people from practicing their faith but if you ask for my opinion which the OP did here, then I will provide it :)

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arkrud
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8/19/2010  9:13 PM
Markji wrote:
martin wrote:
Markji wrote:
grillco wrote:I'm against it unless they're also putting a church and a temple there. In that case all religions should have the right to be included.
I like your idea of having a religious center there where all religions can have a place of worship in that location. That would open up the possibility for mutual understanding and respect.

to me the answer of having a religious center dodges the underlying question and point: this is private property and you are telling the people that own it what to do when in fact they are well within the bounds of what they are doing.

Yes, that is what I was doing - dodging the underlying question and bringing in another solution. It's called the "Principle of the 2nd element." Because I agree with both sides, and yet there should be some common ground for a solution.

In thinking more on this, I would love to see the City allocate land on the WTC site for a Religious Center, not 2 blocks away where the proposed Mosque/Muslim center is. A separate building, modern and religious looking that would honor all religions and have places of worship within the building that accomodates, Christians, Moslems, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Doaists, etc. Show the religious tolerance and freedom that this country was founded on. Then all people within this country as well as tourists could come and pray to God in their own way and remember those innocent people who died there from a very warped terrorist act.

I think this is great plan and great intensions. But I do not think it is possible.
The core idea of Muslim religion is that only Muslims are people of God and all the rest should convert or burn in hell (after life or in Twin Towers).
Same notion is more or less behind other religions with the difference of not being so active in making this the goal of live and honor in death.
Islam is young and aggressive religion. Christianity and Judaism was aggressive long back and moderated since.
I see the plan to build it as statement... I believe that all Muslim people should share the responsibility for what happened and not bother the feelings of these who have loved one get killed by their brothers.
If they do not understand it is their problem.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
islesfan
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8/19/2010  10:01 PM
As with most things in life, I look for guidance from strippers. Let them build it, I'll be next door.


http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2010/08/19/for-strip-clubs-near-ground-zero-its-business-as-usual-amid-mosque-uproar/


For Strippers Near Ground Zero, It’s Business as Usual Amid Mosque Uproar


After the World Trade Center towers fell, a stripper named Chris went to volunteer in the recovery effort for the Red Cross. Nearly 10 years later, she dances just down the street from Ground Zero at the Pussycat Lounge.

Thousands of workers spend their days toiling in the neighborhood around the World Trade Center site, a space that had gained renewed national attention amid controversial plans to build an Islamic center there.

The project, known as Park51, is opposed by a majority of New York residents in recent opinion polls. Politicians both local and national argue that the plan is insensitive to families touched by the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, among others, has referred to the area around Ground Zero as “hallowed ground.”

But for Chris, who declined to give her last name, and other dancers at the two strip clubs within three blocks of the World Trade Center site, the neighborhood is just where they go to work.

As supporters held signs extolling religious freedom at the site of the proposed Islamic center Wednesday, a stripper who gave her name as Cassandra was working the afternoon shift at New York Dolls on Murray Street — just around the corner. She worried that calls to prayer from the mosque at Park51 might wake up neighbors. But when she was told that the organizers aren’t planning loudspeakers, she said she didn’t have a problem with the project.

“I don’t know what the big deal is,” Cassandra said. “It’s freedom of religion, you know?”

Down on Church Street, one block east of the proposed Islamic center and two blocks from Ground Zero, men placed bets on horse racing at an Off-Track Betting facility. One bettor said he could see why the families of victims might get upset about the mosque and community center, but scoffed at the notion that the area around the betting parlor was hallowed ground.

“The bums used to sit right in front of it,” he said of the Park51 location, which would replace a former Burlington Coat Factory store damaged in the terrorist attack.

Not everyone engaged in weekday activities in the neighborhood agrees. Workers near the World Trade Center — including those working in the site — have expressed opposition to the proposed Islamic center. Some of the construction workers have even taken to wearing stickers and signs that demonstrate their opposition to the project, as the news website DNAinfo reported.

But if Ground Zero has been made sacred by tragedy, it’s hard to say the same for the Pussycat Lounge one block south of the site. The front entrance of the strip club and bar, which has been there for more than four decades, offers a clear view of the ongoing construction at the World Trade Center site. There weren’t many customers on Wednesday afternoon, when a television reporter stood in the middle of the street filming a report on the Park51 controversy.

Inside, a bartender who said her name was Dasha offered brief remarks against the proposed Islamic center. She said she’s uneasy about organized religion in general.

But Chris, the stripper who volunteered in the Ground Zero recovery, sat on a barstool in a tiny, shiny red dress and defended Park51. “They’re not building a mosque in the World Trade Center,” she pointed out. “It’s all good. You have your synagogues and your churches. And you have a mosque.”

Chris said she lost eight friends on Sept. 11, 2001 — firefighters from the Brooklyn firehouse next to her home at the time. “The people who did it are not going to the mosque,” she said.

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DrAlphaeus
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8/19/2010  10:40 PM
arkrud wrote:I believe that all Muslim people should share the responsibility for what happened and not bother the feelings of these who have loved one get killed by their brothers.
If they do not understand it is their problem.

arkud, so does that mean that all U.S. citizens should share the responsibility for the various assassinations & atrocities done by the U.S. government, military & its agents?

If so, aren't you just justifying what the 9/11 terrorists did by attacking us?

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loweyecue
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8/19/2010  11:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/19/2010  11:09 PM
1 IN 5 People believe Oabama is Muslim? So 20% of the country falls below the grade of "abysmal" when it comes to intellectual capacity. Wonder what that says about the national average? Methinks, I will change my ID to MediumIQ.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_urban_legends

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izybx
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8/19/2010  11:29 PM
loweyecue wrote:1 IN 5 People believe Oabama is Muslim? So 20% of the country falls below the grade of "abysmal" when it comes to intellectual capacity. Wonder what that says about the national average? Methinks, I will change my ID to MediumIQ.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_urban_legends

Id really be curious to see how many of those people voted Democrat or Republican in the last election...or how many of them vote period

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nykshaknbake
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8/19/2010  11:44 PM
DurzoBlint wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:How is this 'arrogant american's' thinking they are better than everyone else? It sounds more like someone is being arrogant looking down reflively on anyone who doesn't share their anti-american or anti western bias. I also want you to back up your next statement. How many people have been killed? Please compare it with other religions. Please compare it with those that died under athiestic regimes.

DurzoBlint wrote:as if no one of Islamic faith was killed in the towers. This is another case of arrogant american's thinking they are better than everyone else. How many people have been killed to spread christian values around the world.

No one religion follower has caused more death and misery than the catholic missionary.

no, do your own research

Meaning you just pulled this out of your butt.

BasketballJones
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8/20/2010  12:16 AM
Actually, if you'd asked me before all hooopla I would've said "I don't care" if they build a muslim center down there or not. I would never have considered it a "ground zero" mosque given it's location.

I'm really concerned anytime I see a group in our society being misrepresented and vilified like this. It seems to be happening more and more these days. There always seem to be politicians like Newt Gingrich who along with the fox news propaganda operation are all to happy to feed the flames of fear and hatred.

So now I'm for it, and of course they have a right to build it. I do not equate the people who want to build this center with the people who attacked the twin towers.

https:// It's not so hard.
izybx
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8/20/2010  12:27 AM
BasketballJones wrote:Actually, if you'd asked me before all hooopla I would've said "I don't care" if they build a muslim center down there or not. I would never have considered it a "ground zero" mosque given it's location.

I'm really concerned anytime I see a group in our society being misrepresented and vilified like this. It seems to be happening more and more these days. There always seem to be politicians like Newt Gingrich who along with the fox news propaganda operation are all to happy to feed the flames of fear and hatred.

So now I'm for it, and of course they have a right to build it. I do not equate the people who want to build this center with the people who attacked the twin towers.

This is what Im talking about. Cant you be against the mosque without being accused of "vilifying" an entire group of people and feeding the flames of fear and hatred or whatever. Cant you be against the mosque without being accused of being a bigot?

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OT: Ground zero mosque. For it or against, or inbetween?

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