PresIke wrote:firefly wrote:A few clarifications. Pres, it is that simple. If your mothers was Jewish, you're Jewish. Period. We're not talking about conversions here. It's simple. The line follows the maternal side. Since Mary was Jewish, so was Jesus. We've always been happy to have him in the clan, we just debate his progression to something more.
Regarding conversions, yes it gets complex there and as you progress up to the more orthodox levels of Judaism, each level doesn't recognize the lower levels' version of conversion. Reform conversion boils down to "you wanna be Jewish? Got a check? Sweet, you're in". Conservative Judaism doesn't recognize that, and orthodox Judaism don't recognize conservative. It's about what each level believes is required to convert and it's very difficult to convert to orthodox Judaism and purposely so. We believe in purity of motive and it can be very very hard. Remember, judaisms the only religion who doesn't do missionary evangelicism. We're quite happy for people to live how they want, but if they want to join, I think they should be doing it for the right reasons.
Arkrud, I guess I'm one of the "weird" guys you mention. I do all the strange things Jews do, and if you led my life you would assume I was out of my mind. I don't see why that makes me an idiot or crazy. I'm pretty normal, I can have a normal conversation with anyone here and my interactions with others aren't and shouldn't be affected by my Jewishness at all. I don't force my opinions and beliefs on others, it's my life and I don't see why you can judge my private beliefs and call them weird.
I wouldn't imagine for one second that Amares Jewishness will make him want to live the orthodox way of life and I doubt that he's going to make a stink about playing on the Sabbath etc. Personally, if Amare stood up and said he didn't want to play on Yom Kippur I would be very very proud. Don't expect it to happen, but there is precedent in soccer, baseball and other sports.
I don't like it when people judge me or people like me because they don't understand the things I do. I'm more then happy to explain some of the curioser things I live my life by, and I'm also more then happy if noones interested. I don't tell others their way of life is weird, stupid or hypocritical and I expect the same courtesy from the world we live in today.
sorry, firefly, but it isn't. perhaps you are open to this, and others are, but not all.
i am a direct example of this dilemma, and i know others who share similar experiences.
my own father has told me directly to my face he does not consider me jewish, even after encouraging me to be bar mitzvahed via reform judaism (it was actually done in the basement of a lutheran church) after he changed from reform to orthodox later in his life.
either way, i was raised a mix of catholic-episcopalian-jewish as a child (i have also been confirmed in the catholic church).
of course, this baffled many more traditional folks (usually with a response, "you can't do that!")
I believe I addressed your point in my second paragraph. Noone is saying amares mom is a converted Jew, so conversion doesn't come into it. That's why it's that simple.
Regarding your own personal experience, I don't know whether your mother was a reform convert or an original Jew. If she was converted reform, you are right. Orthodox Judaism would not recognize her as Jewish until she performed an orthodox conversion. Look, reform Judaism believes that the bible and g-ds teachings can be changed to more reflect current times and opinions, including changing actual biblical text. I'm sure you can see why that would not be "kosher" to orthodox Judaism. I sympathise with your personal experiences and I believe in everyones right to live however they want. Personally, I wouldnt be able to understand living a chatholic-episcopalian-Jewish life as that would make you a living oxymoron. If it's simply about the "roots" and the history you wish to feel a part of, fair enough, and at that stage I would say reform Judaism is for you anyway.
Most importantly, I am not a big fan of people putting religious beliefs before family. Sadly, you sometimes get that in orthodox Judaism and it's always sad and the children suffer. I have had kids living in my house who's parents want nothing to so with them because they feel they lack the same religious convictions as them. It's depressing and sad, but I'm glad to say in most cases the Jewish community as a whole don't allow those kids to feel alone and unloved, despite their parents' misguided principles.
As a total aside, you don't really need to BE bar mitzvahed. It happens when you turn 13 whether you like it or not, be it in a Lutheran church or at a nudist beach in Corfu. So, happy days!
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
7/29/2010 9:03 AM
