TMS wrote:

eViL wrote:

scoshin wrote:Anyone suggesting that we don't need Paul cause we have Felton, either has forgotten how good Paul really is or is overhyping Felton.

first, i agree with your overall assessment of paul being a superlative PG talent in the league, but the above quote is an oversimplification of the stance against going after paul.

it's not that we don't need paul because we have felton. it's moreso about what paul will cost us in terms of young assets, depth and future cap flexibility. basically, the way i see it: felton + gallo + randolph + flexibility > paul + no depth + no flexibility.

so basically you think we'd have to give up Felton, Gallo, AR, Wilson & take on Okafor's contract to land CP3? i think that's way too much & Donnie would probably never agree to it... i don't think even the proponents of bringing CP3 to NY think that's the price we'd have to pay either.

if u can get CP3 by giving up either AR or Gallo along w/Wilson, TD & take on Okafor's contract in exchange for expirings & future picks, then i think it's about as much as NO could ask for under the circumstances... we would still have Felton as an insurance policy in case CP3's knee goes out, & we'd still have either AR or Gallo at the wing position to play off of the CP3 & Amare combo in the P&R... plus Okafor isn't exactly some scrub player either, his double double per night (or near to it) & shotblocking playing next to Amare in the frontcourt is an ideal scenario... it frees up Amare to concentrate on what he does best & doesn't leave a wide open lane to our basket on the other end.

to hedge on making a deal like that because AR might develop into some superstar or Melo might want to sign here in 2011 is just wasting yet another season hoping to find gold at the end of the rainbow... we just signed a stud bigman in his prime, but he's not going to be in his prime forever... why waste another 2 years playing the waiting game? so Melo can spurn us just like Lebron spurned us this past summer? no thanks.

i think if we make a deal for paul before the season begins, we're gonna get fleeced. to me, playing it cool is the way to go. new orleans is a small market team. if they lose early and often, they will be the ones that are desperate. in addition, if we get off to a solid start, our bargaining position will be even greater. combine both those points with the fact that there aren't many teams out there with the assets to get paul and i really don't feel the urgency that it seems like you are feeling.

scoshin wrote:

eViL wrote:see, you operate on the assumption that none of our players will break out this season. what if there is a break-out star or two already on our roster? my stance is that we need to see what we have before we rush to dump assets. to me, waiting until december 15th is absolutely necessary. if paul gets traded before then, so be it. he's not the first superstar to be on the block and he won't be the last.

I don't think any of our players will "break out" into a franchise talent. I'm talking top 10 here, which is where Paul or Melo are in. Can Gallo or Randolph become all-stars in the future? Sure, but that's the reason NOH may trade with us over 24 other teams. Caron Butler became a future all star and hell, Al Jefferson will probably be an all-star this year now that Boozer and Amare went east. But both of their original teams didn't hesitate or wait on their potential when an actual franchise-changing talent was on the table.

Do people really see Gallo or Randolph becoming top 10 in the league? In the same breath as the Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Paul, etc?

the heat have really messed with everybody's heads. now all of a sudden, you need to have 3 out of the top 10 players to compete. one top 10 guy, plus 2 all-star level talents, plus solid role players is what the two-time reigning NBA champs have been rolling with lately. and they're doing just fine.

eViL wrote:

TMS wrote:

eViL wrote:

scoshin wrote:Anyone suggesting that we don't need Paul cause we have Felton, either has forgotten how good Paul really is or is overhyping Felton.

first, i agree with your overall assessment of paul being a superlative PG talent in the league, but the above quote is an oversimplification of the stance against going after paul.

it's not that we don't need paul because we have felton. it's moreso about what paul will cost us in terms of young assets, depth and future cap flexibility. basically, the way i see it: felton + gallo + randolph + flexibility > paul + no depth + no flexibility.

so basically you think we'd have to give up Felton, Gallo, AR, Wilson & take on Okafor's contract to land CP3? i think that's way too much & Donnie would probably never agree to it... i don't think even the proponents of bringing CP3 to NY think that's the price we'd have to pay either.

if u can get CP3 by giving up either AR or Gallo along w/Wilson, TD & take on Okafor's contract in exchange for expirings & future picks, then i think it's about as much as NO could ask for under the circumstances... we would still have Felton as an insurance policy in case CP3's knee goes out, & we'd still have either AR or Gallo at the wing position to play off of the CP3 & Amare combo in the P&R... plus Okafor isn't exactly some scrub player either, his double double per night (or near to it) & shotblocking playing next to Amare in the frontcourt is an ideal scenario... it frees up Amare to concentrate on what he does best & doesn't leave a wide open lane to our basket on the other end.

to hedge on making a deal like that because AR might develop into some superstar or Melo might want to sign here in 2011 is just wasting yet another season hoping to find gold at the end of the rainbow... we just signed a stud bigman in his prime, but he's not going to be in his prime forever... why waste another 2 years playing the waiting game? so Melo can spurn us just like Lebron spurned us this past summer? no thanks.

i think if we make a deal for paul before the season begins, we're gonna get fleeced. to me, playing it cool is the way to go. new orleans is a small market team. if they lose early and often, they will be the ones that are desperate. in addition, if we get off to a solid start, our bargaining position will be even greater. combine both those points with the fact that there aren't many teams out there with the assets to get paul and i really don't feel the urgency that it seems like you are feeling.

& if NO gets desperate, then what? do you honestly think they'd trade him to us for Wilson Chandler & a bag of peanuts? let's get real here... you're gonna have to give up something to get the top PG in the league... only way we get him for so little is in 2012 when he becomes a FA, & by then like i pointed out earlier, we'll have to waive goodbye to Gallo, Chandler & our other players anyway to even make room for him to come here.

eViL wrote:

scoshin wrote:

eViL wrote:see, you operate on the assumption that none of our players will break out this season. what if there is a break-out star or two already on our roster? my stance is that we need to see what we have before we rush to dump assets. to me, waiting until december 15th is absolutely necessary. if paul gets traded before then, so be it. he's not the first superstar to be on the block and he won't be the last.

I don't think any of our players will "break out" into a franchise talent. I'm talking top 10 here, which is where Paul or Melo are in. Can Gallo or Randolph become all-stars in the future? Sure, but that's the reason NOH may trade with us over 24 other teams. Caron Butler became a future all star and hell, Al Jefferson will probably be an all-star this year now that Boozer and Amare went east. But both of their original teams didn't hesitate or wait on their potential when an actual franchise-changing talent was on the table.

Do people really see Gallo or Randolph becoming top 10 in the league? In the same breath as the Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Paul, etc?

the heat have really messed with everybody's heads. now all of a sudden, you need to have 3 out of the top 10 players to compete. one top 10 guy, plus 2 all-star level talents, plus solid role players is what the two-time reigning NBA champs have been rolling with lately. and they're doing just fine.

i have had this frame of mind for years... teams that win championships traditionally have at least 2 superstars playing on the team... why do you think i've been railing for us to stop wasting money on 3rd tier talent guys like Zach Randolph & been against targetting guys like Gerald Wallace & Gilbert Arenas in trades all this time? because i've wanted to remain flexible so we could go after the top stars in the game... signing Amare was a big step towards achieving the goal, but we still have more left to do... CP3 is a bonafide superstar... i'd rather take my chances with 2 guys like that leading this team over just Amare & guys that have yet to live up to their potential or hype... & no one on this thread is saying we need to get our own big 3 together in NY to compete, but a roster of Amare, Felton, Gallo & AR is not going to realistically contend for championships... they might be fun to watch & provide some oohs & ahs for the Knick fans to cheer about, but they're not going to be able to go to battle against the top teams in the NBA on a regular basis.

as for the Lakers, do you really think Amare stacks up to Kobe Bryant in terms of talent or ability to carry his team? plus Kobe's supporting cast includes more than just 2 all-star level talents when you consider he's got Gasol, Artest, Odom & Bynum playing alongside him... do u really think Felton, Gallo & AR are a match for that kind of depth around Kobe? seriously?

eViL wrote:

TMS wrote:& if NO gets desperate, then what?

my point is, let's wait and see. better than working out a deal when they have a strong bargaining position. i'm not saying no to paul under any and all circumstances. i'm just saying wait until december 15th at a minimum. i'm not saying they'll throw him away. i'm saying they might be more apt to settle for less. basically, i'm saying be patient.

let's say we wait til december 15th & CP3 still wants out... we're still going to have to give up something to get him... you have to figure at least 1 of AR or Gallo will have to be included in any deal no matter if it's now or 4 months from now... & in that scenario the likelihood goes up we'd also be including Ray Felton in the deal instead of maybe another piece, especially if CP3 comes out balling to start the season... his price goes way up in that case... w/CP3's knee issue i would rather hold onto Felton as insurance & give up the cap space now to get the guy we're after... sacrificing flexibility & assets to land a superstar is the ultimate goal of all these moves we've made up to this point afterall, is it not? or do you really think Donnie made these moves because he plans on building this team around Felton, AR & Gallo?

TMS wrote:as for the Lakers, do you really think Amare stacks up to Kobe Bryant in terms of talent or ability to carry his team? plus Kobe's supporting cast includes more than just 2 all-star level talents when you consider he's got Gasol, Artest, Odom & Bynum playing alongside him... do u really think Felton, Gallo & AR are a match for that kind of depth around Kobe? seriously?

no. i'm not suggesting that we are the same level as the Lakers. and you know i'm not. that's not why i brought them up. i brought them up to refute the idea that we need multiple top 10 talents to win.

i know you think it's impossible, but if we stay patient and sign Carmelo, then i think we've constructed a team much in the same mold as the lakers:

carmelo = kobe = top 10 talent
amare = gasol = all-star talent
randolph = odom = versatile, do-it-all forward
gallo = artest = in gallo's case, dead-eye shooter; in artest's, perimeter lock-down guy
felton = fisher = solid vet

now, i see no good reason for melo to stay in denver other than fear of the next CBA. that's it. other than that, the roster is aging and the coach is unfortunately battling a life-threatening illness. he lags behind all other nba superstars in popularity because he's in denver. he stands to gain the biggest boost from the NY stage of all top-level NBA franchise talents. moreso than any of this offseason's free agents.

so you think it's impossible we sign carmelo. i don't think it's impossible. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. i'm just not sold on rushing to get chris paul. you are. again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I just want to see the team win. I'm not of the opinion that we won't win if we don't get Paul. I happen to think this team will be really good with or without him. Clearly CP3 in on another level from your typical PG and I can understand if Donnie gives up the farm to get him, I just hope it won't cost that much. I guess we'll know after Dec 15.

eViL wrote:

TMS wrote:as for the Lakers, do you really think Amare stacks up to Kobe Bryant in terms of talent or ability to carry his team? plus Kobe's supporting cast includes more than just 2 all-star level talents when you consider he's got Gasol, Artest, Odom & Bynum playing alongside him... do u really think Felton, Gallo & AR are a match for that kind of depth around Kobe? seriously?

no. i'm not suggesting that we are the same level as the Lakers. and you know i'm not. that's not why i brought them up. i brought them up to refute the idea that we need multiple top 10 talents to win.

i know you think it's impossible, but if we stay patient and sign Carmelo, then i think we've constructed a team much in the same mold as the lakers:

carmelo = kobe = top 10 talent
amare = gasol = all-star talent
randolph = odom = versatile, do-it-all forward
gallo = artest = in gallo's case, dead-eye shooter; in artest's, perimeter lock-down guy
felton = fisher = solid vet

now, i see no good reason for melo to stay in denver other than fear of the next CBA. that's it. other than that, the roster is aging and the coach is unfortunately battling a life-threatening illness. he lags behind all other nba superstars in popularity because he's in denver. he stands to gain the biggest boost from the NY stage of all top-level NBA franchise talents. moreso than any of this offseason's free agents.

so you think it's impossible we sign carmelo. i don't think it's impossible. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. i'm just not sold on rushing to get chris paul. you are. again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I like Melo, but I honestly don't feel like Melo would be as good a fit as Paul would be. I'm not just talking about D'Antoni's system. Melo is one of the top iso-scorers in the league, but how well would he mesh with Amare, who works primarily in the P/R? What do we do with Gallo then who plays the same position as Melo? Do we turn him into a just a spot-up shooter, which is what he was with Al Harrington? (note - Gallo looked a lot better as soon as we took Harrington out of the lineup). Maybe if we ran the triangle like the Lakers it would make a lot more sense.

Moreover, signing Melo is just not a guarantee, even if most signs are pointing toward him coming to NY. If there's a reasonable Paul deal now, I take it and stop gambling on FA.