TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:any one who thinks we couldn't have signed Amare without making that T-Mac trade is delusional... we offered him a max contract & he took the offer... that could have been accomplished without having to give up any assets last year... the point of THAT trade was to land Lebron James geniuses... but by all means keep on dishing out the same ol' bullsheit about Jordan Hill being crap & whatever else if that makes some of you feel more manly.

Well, to be fair, there's no guarantee that Amare signs if we don't have enough cap room for a chance at LeBron/Wade/Carmelo/etc...

what's Melo have to do with this? what Amare knows about Lebron or Wade's intentions is anyone's guess, but the point if if neither of those 2 sign here, what was the point of the T-Mac trade?

Well, in theory we could use the cap space in a lopsided trade for Melo. E.g.: Gallo + Chandler for Carmelo. Just saying.

I agree with you about the point of the trade. I was just saying that if we don't have two max, maybe Amare isn't as quick to sign here. But, who knows?

get real bro... DEN's not giving Melo to us in any trade for Gallo & Chandler... that's not even worth debating.

Well, if they were really afraid of losing him for nothing, I don't think it's out of the question. I think Gallinari is a pretty valuable trade piece right now.

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:any one who thinks we couldn't have signed Amare without making that T-Mac trade is delusional... we offered him a max contract & he took the offer... that could have been accomplished without having to give up any assets last year... the point of THAT trade was to land Lebron James geniuses... but by all means keep on dishing out the same ol' bullsheit about Jordan Hill being crap & whatever else if that makes some of you feel more manly.

Well, to be fair, there's no guarantee that Amare signs if we don't have enough cap room for a chance at LeBron/Wade/Carmelo/etc...

what's Melo have to do with this? what Amare knows about Lebron or Wade's intentions is anyone's guess, but the point if if neither of those 2 sign here, what was the point of the T-Mac trade?

Well, in theory we could use the cap space in a lopsided trade for Melo. E.g.: Gallo + Chandler for Carmelo. Just saying.

I agree with you about the point of the trade. I was just saying that if we don't have two max, maybe Amare isn't as quick to sign here. But, who knows?

get real bro... DEN's not giving Melo to us in any trade for Gallo & Chandler... that's not even worth debating.

Well, if they were really afraid of losing him for nothing, I don't think it's out of the question. I think Gallinari is a pretty valuable trade piece right now.

NEXT year maybe they would, but no way in hell that happens this year... which brings me to my original point, if we had held onto the picks & Hill, we have more to offer to DEN to get them to trade him to us next summer... that trade was made for this summer, & it was made for Lebron, Wade or Bosh to come here to play with another max guy, let's be real about it.

BlueSeats wrote:

TMS wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:TMS, I'm playing catch up with you guys. Is your point that if this doesn't land us Wade, Melo or LBJ it was foolsh, or do you leave room that some things are worth trying even if they don't work out as we'd like?

my point is that trade was made to clear up cap space to sign 2 max guys THIS SUMMER... let's leave Melo's name out of this, ain't no way DEN's trading him to us this year.

the trade was made to land 2 out of Lebron, Wade, Bosh or Amare in my view... those are the guys that were being talked about for the past 2 years as planning on this summer to join forces & contend for titles together... those were the guys Donnie had his sights set on, let's be real about it.

but i have gone on record as saying i'd be content if we ended up with Amare & Tony Parker out of all this maneuvering as well, so i am open to other alternatives... but really we could have better explored sign & trade avenues if we had held onto our draft pick & Jordan Hill, i think that's a fair statement.

The trades were to give us the opportunity to land two big fish. However this turns out, do you think precluding that opportunity in order to keep Hill & pick would have been sound?

I might agree with you in most other offseasons. But big opportunity cost to not be in it for all it's worth this offseason. Admittedly, I'd say the odds are against it, but we're still the roll of a dice away from being contenders in a year or two. Not so if Parker and Amare where the most we aspired to.

by making that trade we may have also lost out on the opportunity for some sign & trade scenarios we otherwise would have been able to consider if we had more assets to offer... it works bothh ways... in the end, it's all about results... if we land the big fish we were after, it's an obvious success... if we don't, it's a failure... we landed 1 big fish, but that's only half the goal.

Cosmic wrote:

VDesai wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

VDesai wrote:Are we 100% sure they renounced Amare...I thought I read something last night that they didn't. It would make a lot of sense if the S&T'd Amare for Lee or maybe even Curry/Chandler. Actually if they S&T'd Amare for Curry/Chandler that would actually give us enough cap space for a Max/Near Max.

They had to renounce him to sign Frye and Warrick. They didn't have the space otherwise due to Amare's cap hold.

They haven't signed Warrick yet and can't officially sign him till Thursday yesterday. A verbal agreement doesn't mean they'd have to renounce Amare yet. We can go get a verbal from Lebron right now and we wouldn't immediately need to renounce Lee too make that happen. There's no logical reason to renounce someone till official signings can happen.

Amare wanted 5 full max guaranteed years.

The Suns were unwilling to give it to him be it for themselves or in a sign and trade - they didn't want to take back an equal amount of salary.

They tried to re-sign him. He didn't want to agree to their terms. It was obvious there was nothing more to be done.

So they went in another direction and renounced his rights so they could do so.

Kinda simple stuff there if you read into it. It was over. They weren't keeping him. They weren't S&T'ing him. They didn't want to meet the contract demands one way or another. So they parted ways.

OPtimus is right: They are going to rebuild. As well they should. It has run it's course.

Huh? Doesn't sound like you got any of it. The point is they don't have to renounce Amare before they ink any contracts. They can move on and talk to Warrick/Frye etc. but they don't have to renounce him untill they INK those contacts. So in all likelihood, they haven't dont that yet. It may be moot because they may not be amenable to a sign and trade- all they may want to do is to use the free space that they clear up by letting Amare walk to sign Warrick and Frye. But untill those contracts are inked they can still see if they can work a S&T and do exactly what Hollinger described.

If they indeed have renounced him already, than that was just stupid because they didn't have any reasonable reason to do so untill they had to officially sign the contracts (not till Thurs does that have to take place).

BasketballJones wrote:

TMS wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:TMS, I'm playing catch up with you guys. Is your point that if this doesn't land us Wade, Melo or LBJ it was foolsh, or do you leave room that some things are worth trying even if they don't work out as we'd like?

TMS didn't like the TMAC trade because they traded away his favorite player of all time - Jordan Hill.

no i didn't like the TMac trade cuz your momma was on my jock about the draft picks & i had to shut her up somehow while she was going Dirty Sanchez on deez nuts.

Wow, so a joke about you liking Jordan Hill calls for a dirty joke about my mother. Really hit a nerve, huh?

oh i thought we were all joking here... my bad.

BlueSeats wrote:

TMS wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

TMS wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:TMS, I'm playing catch up with you guys. Is your point that if this doesn't land us Wade, Melo or LBJ it was foolsh, or do you leave room that some things are worth trying even if they don't work out as we'd like?

my point is that trade was made to clear up cap space to sign 2 max guys THIS SUMMER... let's leave Melo's name out of this, ain't no way DEN's trading him to us this year.

the trade was made to land 2 out of Lebron, Wade, Bosh or Amare in my view... those are the guys that were being talked about for the past 2 years as planning on this summer to join forces & contend for titles together... those were the guys Donnie had his sights set on, let's be real about it.

but i have gone on record as saying i'd be content if we ended up with Amare & Tony Parker out of all this maneuvering as well, so i am open to other alternatives... but really we could have better explored sign & trade avenues if we had held onto our draft pick & Jordan Hill, i think that's a fair statement.

The trades were to give us the opportunity to land two big fish. However this turns out, do you think precluding that opportunity in order to keep Hill & pick would have been sound?

I might agree with you in most other offseasons. But big opportunity cost to not be in it for all it's worth this offseason. Admittedly, I'd say the odds are against it, but we're still the roll of a dice away from being contenders in a year or two. Not so if Parker and Amare where the most we aspired to.

by making that trade we may have also lost out on the opportunity for some sign & trade scenarios we otherwise would have been able to consider if we had more assets to offer... it works bothh ways... in the end, it's all about results... if we land the big fish we were after, it's an obvious success... if we don't, it's a failure... we landed 1 big fish, but that's only half the goal.

But those trades wold not have been for Lebron, so it's not quite equal.

Anyway, like the Van Gundy's say, you gotta judge a shot a good shot or a bad shot when it goes up, not when you know if it went in or not.

that kinda logic doesn't apply to roster moves or draft picks... u judge those by results... u don't say 10 years down the line after a guy ends up being a bust that it was worth the risk to take him because of his upside potential... same thing with a trade of this nature... 10 years down the road no one's gonna look back & say the Knicks were smart to give up those assets to take a shot at Lebron if he turns us down this summer.

umynot wrote:
We opened up 10 mil in space and got to rent Tracy.....

Bulls gave a 17th pick and Hinrich and got nothing!!

Miami made similar deals and now have no players at all!!

If Wade leaves they are now irrelevant!!

We got Amare already so even at this point all we gave up was Jordan Hill and one pick!!

If we get any other of these big time FA we have hit a GRAND SLAM with this one trade!!

Yet you still disagree!!

Thought with this signing you might change mind!!

And I said all that and never mentioned getting rid of the worst Knick of all
time and his disgusting contract that houston now has to deal with!!

Think its time you admit it might of been worth it!!

Bulls gave up a 17th pick for $17M in cap space genius... we gave up 2 future potential lottery picks & a #8 lottery rook for $10M in cap space... which team looks like they got the better bargain?

i think it's time you stopped using all those !!!!'s to try & make your post sound more intelligent & start thinking about the reality of the situation... we still need to land another big fish to make sense of that trade... if that happens i'll be more than happy to give Donnie props... if it doesn't, will you be man enough to admit we should have held onto our assets tho? i sincerely doubt that... you're so eager for the I Told You So privileges, you're already pronouncing this whole plan a success... that's pretty laughable.

TMS wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

TMS wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

TMS wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:TMS, I'm playing catch up with you guys. Is your point that if this doesn't land us Wade, Melo or LBJ it was foolsh, or do you leave room that some things are worth trying even if they don't work out as we'd like?

my point is that trade was made to clear up cap space to sign 2 max guys THIS SUMMER... let's leave Melo's name out of this, ain't no way DEN's trading him to us this year.

the trade was made to land 2 out of Lebron, Wade, Bosh or Amare in my view... those are the guys that were being talked about for the past 2 years as planning on this summer to join forces & contend for titles together... those were the guys Donnie had his sights set on, let's be real about it.

but i have gone on record as saying i'd be content if we ended up with Amare & Tony Parker out of all this maneuvering as well, so i am open to other alternatives... but really we could have better explored sign & trade avenues if we had held onto our draft pick & Jordan Hill, i think that's a fair statement.

The trades were to give us the opportunity to land two big fish. However this turns out, do you think precluding that opportunity in order to keep Hill & pick would have been sound?

I might agree with you in most other offseasons. But big opportunity cost to not be in it for all it's worth this offseason. Admittedly, I'd say the odds are against it, but we're still the roll of a dice away from being contenders in a year or two. Not so if Parker and Amare where the most we aspired to.

by making that trade we may have also lost out on the opportunity for some sign & trade scenarios we otherwise would have been able to consider if we had more assets to offer... it works bothh ways... in the end, it's all about results... if we land the big fish we were after, it's an obvious success... if we don't, it's a failure... we landed 1 big fish, but that's only half the goal.

But those trades wold not have been for Lebron, so it's not quite equal.

Anyway, like the Van Gundy's say, you gotta judge a shot a good shot or a bad shot when it goes up, not when you know if it went in or not.

that kinda logic doesn't apply to roster moves or draft picks... u judge those by results... u don't say 10 years down the line after a guy ends up being a bust that it was worth the risk to take him because of his upside potential... same thing with a trade of this nature... 10 years down the road no one's gonna look back & say the Knicks were smart to give up those assets to take a shot at Lebron if he turns us down this summer.

I guess different people handle such things differently. For instance, whatever career Greg Oden has, he was the right pick at the time.

And the converse is also true. Driving home drunk is wrong even when one makes it safely.

Not positioning ourselves to be in it now, when we've got as good a shot as anybody, would have been a wasted opportunity.

TMS wrote:

umynot wrote:
We opened up 10 mil in space and got to rent Tracy.....

Bulls gave a 17th pick and Hinrich and got nothing!!

Miami made similar deals and now have no players at all!!

If Wade leaves they are now irrelevant!!

We got Amare already so even at this point all we gave up was Jordan Hill and one pick!!

If we get any other of these big time FA we have hit a GRAND SLAM with this one trade!!

Yet you still disagree!!

Thought with this signing you might change mind!!

And I said all that and never mentioned getting rid of the worst Knick of all
time and his disgusting contract that houston now has to deal with!!

Think its time you admit it might of been worth it!!

Bulls gave up a 17th pick for $17M in cap space genius... we gave up 2 future potential lottery picks & a #8 lottery rook for $10M in cap space... which team looks like they got the better bargain?

i think it's time you stopped using all those !!!!'s to try & make your post sound more intelligent & start thinking about the reality of the situation... we still need to land another big fish to make sense of that trade... if that happens i'll be more than happy to give Donnie props... if it doesn't, will you be man enough to admit we should have held onto our assets tho? i sincerely doubt that... you're so eager for the I Told You So privileges, you're already pronouncing this whole plan a success... that's pretty laughable.

TMS I aint arguing my dawg......

Not my style

All I was saying is everyone in the NBA wanted to get into the same position we were slowing
putting ourselves into all this time....

No matter what happens from here on out we were successful just by getting into this position!!

No one knew real value at deadline but we got some publicity by getting T-Mac and we got rid of really
bad contract leaving us with only one bad asset ( curry ).....

Hill is a role player........ And I'm willing to bet loot no pick will be Lottery!

Walsh is smart and the NBA noticed how smart and followed his lead into this Summer!!

He struck first too so I think its time to say it was an ok trade at least!!

TMS wrote:

umynot wrote:
We opened up 10 mil in space and got to rent Tracy.....

Bulls gave a 17th pick and Hinrich and got nothing!!

Miami made similar deals and now have no players at all!!

If Wade leaves they are now irrelevant!!

We got Amare already so even at this point all we gave up was Jordan Hill and one pick!!

If we get any other of these big time FA we have hit a GRAND SLAM with this one trade!!

Yet you still disagree!!

Thought with this signing you might change mind!!

And I said all that and never mentioned getting rid of the worst Knick of all
time and his disgusting contract that houston now has to deal with!!

Think its time you admit it might of been worth it!!

Bulls gave up a 17th pick for $17M in cap space genius... we gave up 2 future potential lottery picks & a #8 lottery rook for $10M in cap space... which team looks like they got the better bargain?

i think it's time you stopped using all those !!!!'s to try & make your post sound more intelligent & start thinking about the reality of the situation... we still need to land another big fish to make sense of that trade... if that happens i'll be more than happy to give Donnie props... if it doesn't, will you be man enough to admit we should have held onto our assets tho? i sincerely doubt that... you're so eager for the I Told You So privileges, you're already pronouncing this whole plan a success... that's pretty laughable.

Hold on... gotta compare apples to apples. Hinrich and the 17th pick cleared 10.5M of guaranteed salary for the Bulls not $17M. They got back the 35th pick overall. Hinrich is a better player than Jeffries. Chicago didn't have to do as much to get rid of him.

Trading Jeffries and Hill cleared $10.1M of salary. We gave up a future first and the right to swap the 1st next year with Houston (which may not net them anything). We also received 1) Sergio Rodriguez (which means his future rfa rights if he ever tries to come back to the NBA since he has signed overseas) and 2) Tracy McGrady's bird rights (useless).

So, we paid a bit to be rid of Jeffries, but we were also clearing Hill off the cap as well. In order to offer two max contracts, either Hill, Gallo or Chandler had to go also (since we couldn't dump Curry). They dumped Hill instead of anyone else.

When deal was first made it was a gamble of sorts but when you see everyone making the same exact
gambles that you make you know you did something right!!

The Don has officially done a good job!!!

Now all we got to do is have him look like a super genius by getting Bron

Feel we are close!!