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Better deal 26 year old lee 6 years 66mm 29 yo amare 5 years 100mm?
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King1
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7/3/2010  6:23 PM
The real question if walsh would have done what boston did with rondo and portland did with alderidge lee for 45 or amare 100 million?
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loweyecue
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7/3/2010  6:31 PM
Walsh is trying to land the biggest fish in the pond and using the MOST expensive bait to do so. Now can we end this thread please?
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Paladin55
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7/3/2010  7:25 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/3/2010  7:28 PM
Just for the sake of my enlightenment, what actually makes Amare that much of a better player than Lee? When I hear Lee's best backer say- Amare is a much better player than Lee so lets not talk about that, I figure that the case is closed- Amare has to be the better player.

But what makes him that much better than Lee? Especially if both are playing at PF, their natural position?

I am all for Amare coming here if it means that LeBron sees it as an enticement and follows, but this is probably the only reason I would want Amare here. None of us really know how Amare will be as a player without Nash, and when I look at what each of them, Lee and Amare, can do, I honestly don't see why we consider him to be that much better than Lee.

I saw a lot of hunger and desire by Amare in the playoffs, but he has a lot of holes in his game:

- very underachieving as a rebounder

- Improved jumper from when he came into the league, but not as good as Lee's at this point

- spotty defender- stronger in the post than Lee (who isn't)but nothing special as a help defender or playing the passing lanes

- very poor passer compared to Lee

- very weak going to his left- looked like me (5'10" with a 5 inch vertical) going to his left a few times against the Lakers' big men.

I have been very frustrated with Lee on defense, and the fact that he has refused to build himself up physically in order the be tougher in the middle continues to amaze me, we all know that he has been playing out of position. How much better might he be as a PF with a traditional shot blocking center next to him?

All this is academic if Amare as a Knicks lures LeBron here, but I don't think that the Amare/Lee comparison is as clear cut for Amare as some of you seem to think.

I also don't know if Lee's max contract is as large as Amare's because don't you also consider years of service when computing it? Lee has 5 years in-Amare 8.We can also offer Lee a 6th year, and this could further reduce the per year amount and still give him more over the life of the contract.

This is something that should have been brought up with LeBron, by the way (maybe it was) -why not just ask him which players he would want on the court with with him, and whether he had a preference between Lee and Amare. I do know that he wanted him on the Cavs last year at the trade deadline- don't remember him saying anything about wanting Lee.

I have fights with Briggs all the time, but I think this is a legitimate topic of discussion, and to be honest, I was thinking of beginning a similar thread myself.

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TMS
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7/3/2010  7:40 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/3/2010  7:41 PM
for starter's, Amare is playing against much tougher competition out West & has been able to distinguish himself at the top of the NBA... he's also bigtime proven in postseason play against the best the NBA has to offer.

David Lee has put up stats on a crappy team his entire career, & while he has improved his game admirably & worked his ass off to become an Allstar, he is not nearly as proven a player as Amare is.

for these same reasons a guy like Amare is much more likely to lure Lebron here than David Lee.

hope that answers your question.

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Paladin55
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7/3/2010  7:49 PM
TMS wrote:for starter's, Amare is playing against much tougher competition out West & has been able to distinguish himself at the top of the NBA... he's also bigtime proven in postseason play against the best the NBA has to offer.

David Lee has put up stats on a crappy team his entire career, & while he has improved his game admirably & worked his ass off to become an Allstar, he is not nearly as proven a player as Amare is.

for these same reasons a guy like Amare is much more likely to lure Lebron here than David Lee.

hope that answers your question.

I'm playing devil's advocate, to an extent, but the situation is not as simple as some think.

Who knows how Lee would be looked at if he had been in Amare's place on Phoenix? Who knows how Amare would have been in Lee's spot over here? And which of them has played with the best PG of the past decade for 6 of his 8 years (and 2 with Marbury when he was averaging 8 APG)?

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AnubisADL
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7/3/2010  7:53 PM
These arguments dont make sense because we have no idea what David Lee's agent is asking for. I assume David Lee is looking for a Rudy Gay type deal.

So I rather have Amare for a difference of 10-15 million over 5 yrs.

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BRIGGS
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7/3/2010  7:56 PM
iSergio wrote:Amare Stoudemire = Star

David Lee = Role player

/thread.

Amare was a star 4 years ago and had some great moments again this year. You get a little more reliable pure offensive post presence but you go backwards on rebounding passing and starting the fast break. Defensively it is very close to call. I thought D Lee improved towards the end of the season and Amare has never been a great defender--I don't see a dramatic difference. The only way I see this being a good deal is if it brings one of Wade or LBJ to NY otherwise in terms of TEAM with the extra cap space left over--this is a losing proposition.

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Ira
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7/3/2010  8:11 PM
It's hard to measure defense statistically, but a friend of mine had the bright idea of looking at 82games data on 'counterpart offense', as measured by eFG%. What you're seeing is the scoring efficiency of opponents against the player you're looking at.

The counterpart eFG% for Lee is .588 against power forwards and .560 against centers. The counterpart eFG% for Amare is .474 against power forwards and .481 against centers. In other words it's not close. Amare is much better than Lee.

Here are the links. Scroll down for the counterpart stats.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK17.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09PHO11.HTM

TMS
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7/3/2010  8:18 PM
Paladin55 wrote:
TMS wrote:for starter's, Amare is playing against much tougher competition out West & has been able to distinguish himself at the top of the NBA... he's also bigtime proven in postseason play against the best the NBA has to offer.

David Lee has put up stats on a crappy team his entire career, & while he has improved his game admirably & worked his ass off to become an Allstar, he is not nearly as proven a player as Amare is.

for these same reasons a guy like Amare is much more likely to lure Lebron here than David Lee.

hope that answers your question.

I'm playing devil's advocate, to an extent, but the situation is not as simple as some think.

Who knows how Lee would be looked at if he had been in Amare's place on Phoenix? Who knows how Amare would have been in Lee's spot over here? And which of them has played with the best PG of the past decade for 6 of his 8 years (and 2 with Marbury when he was averaging 8 APG)?

u can ask these questions all day... what i do know is that Amare has proven himself to be a better player than D Lee for his entire career... the questions surrounding him have to do with his health history, but his ability is undeniable.

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King1
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7/3/2010  8:56 PM
TMS i totally agree with you but if you add Amare and Miller you maybe get a 8 seed in the playoffs. You could also have him miss the season like he has 3 out of the 8. Amare played with the MVP and Marion another all star and they didnt win there is no way he is winning with this lineup
TMS
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7/3/2010  9:01 PM
King1 wrote:TMS i totally agree with you but if you add Amare and Miller you maybe get a 8 seed in the playoffs. You could also have him miss the season like he has 3 out of the 8. Amare played with the MVP and Marion another all star and they didnt win there is no way he is winning with this lineup

it's a risk no doubt, but at this point what are our alternatives? Walsh has put us all in on a bigname FA this summer... we have no fallback plan... sorry but signing David Lee & a buncha 3rd tier guys to contracts is not a fallback plan, that's what you call a plan for failure.

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King1
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7/3/2010  9:14 PM
i totally agree but for having no draft picks and 2 decent players and you come up with a guy you had to overpay that gets hurt, and no one else so far would be considered a failure.
loweyecue
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7/3/2010  9:22 PM
Broussard is apparently mentioning rumors of Knicks looking at an S&T for Monta Ellis? Can anyone confirm this?
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
TMS
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7/3/2010  9:23 PM
King1 wrote:i totally agree but for having no draft picks and 2 decent players and you come up with a guy you had to overpay that gets hurt, and no one else so far would be considered a failure.

i agree... if Amare is the only impact signing this summer, then it's definitely a failure... personally the only way Donnie's plan can be worth our while is if we land Lebron... he's the 1 player that can make sense of this entire mess... i don't see us getting D Wade regardless of what happens... if we fail to land those guys, but can still end up with Amare & work a trade for someone like Tony Parker, then i'd say it was worth it... not the ideal pairing but you'd be hard pressed to find another tandem like that in the Atlantic Division... both those guys have proven they can hang in the tough Western Conference against the best competition in the league & have been parts of winning teams their entire careers... i'd be OK with that to start & then building up from there... pair those guys up with Gallo & a defensive minded C who can patrol the paint, & you have something to build on.

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Childs2Dudley
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7/3/2010  9:23 PM
loweyecue wrote:Broussard is apparently mentioning rumors of Knicks looking at an S&T for Monta Ellis? Can anyone confirm this?

Yeah, he mentioned it.

That would be awful.

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nixluva
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7/3/2010  9:26 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
iSergio wrote:Amare Stoudemire = Star

David Lee = Role player

/thread.

Amare was a star 4 years ago and had some great moments again this year. You get a little more reliable pure offensive post presence but you go backwards on rebounding passing and starting the fast break. Defensively it is very close to call. I thought D Lee improved towards the end of the season and Amare has never been a great defender--I don't see a dramatic difference. The only way I see this being a good deal is if it brings one of Wade or LBJ to NY otherwise in terms of TEAM with the extra cap space left over--this is a losing proposition.

Amare has been in 7 All Star Games! He's been playing in the post season against the best players and finding success. He's got some flaws which I think get exaggerated a bit. He's not perfect, but I find him to be a much more feared player than Lee. Lee kind of sneaks up on teams, whereas Amare is a main target of teams defenses. No one really fears Lee that way. I have concerns about some of Amare's flaws, but not so much that I think they outweigh his positives.

Amare has been the man on his team for years and his production has been just flat out better than Lee. Lee is close, but not as good. As part of trying to build a title team you want to improve in every aspect, so this is part of that process.

loweyecue
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7/3/2010  9:27 PM
Childs2Dudley wrote:
loweyecue wrote:Broussard is apparently mentioning rumors of Knicks looking at an S&T for Monta Ellis? Can anyone confirm this?

Yeah, he mentioned it.

That would be awful.

Assuming its for Curry. how would it hurt us in the short term? What's his contract like?

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Childs2Dudley
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7/3/2010  9:36 PM
loweyecue wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:
loweyecue wrote:Broussard is apparently mentioning rumors of Knicks looking at an S&T for Monta Ellis? Can anyone confirm this?

Yeah, he mentioned it.

That would be awful.

Assuming its for Curry. how would it hurt us in the short term? What's his contract like?

Ellis runs at $11 million per year till 2014.

The Knicks wouldn't trade Curry (and GS would have no reason to do that) in this scenario. It would be David Lee for Monta Ellis.

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loweyecue
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7/3/2010  9:40 PM
Childs2Dudley wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:
loweyecue wrote:Broussard is apparently mentioning rumors of Knicks looking at an S&T for Monta Ellis? Can anyone confirm this?

Yeah, he mentioned it.

That would be awful.

Assuming its for Curry. how would it hurt us in the short term? What's his contract like?

Ellis runs at $11 million per year till 2014.

The Knicks wouldn't trade Curry (and GS would have no reason to do that) in this scenario. It would be David Lee for Monta Ellis.

In that case Ellis can rot in hell.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
Nalod
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7/3/2010  11:03 PM
I love Dlee, but Dlee don't post up and get you points in crunch time.

He is a much better value no doubt, but Amare MIGHT get you Leborn.

Knicks had to get Bosh or Amare QUICK!

You don't get lebron without one of them and Bosh Is wasting peoples time.

Toronto handed him a bit of news and let them know they want good **** in return for his max deal.

Better deal 26 year old lee 6 years 66mm 29 yo amare 5 years 100mm?

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