TMS wrote:i agree with your point & i appreciate your counterpoints Nalod, they have validity to them as much as we'd all like there to be no stereotypes of races existing they do & will always exist as long as people are ignorant to the cultures of the different ethnicities that make up this country... & you're right, i doubt the show "Kung Fu" would have succeeded had Bruce Lee been cast as the lead in the show he created because of the close minded viewpoints of the times regarding people of other races living in this country... it's too bad many of those close minded views still exist today.

perhaps I misunderstand you, but are stereotypes a bad thing, in general? Isn't it just a general way to describe a culture or people?

From wikipedia: "A stereotype is a commonly held public belief about specific social groups or types of individuals. The concepts of "stereotype" and "prejudice" are often confused with many other different meanings. Stereotypes are standardized and simplified conceptions of groups based on some prior assumptions. Generally speaking, stereotypes are not based on objective truth but rather subjective and sometimes unverifiable content-matter."

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:i agree with your point & i appreciate your counterpoints Nalod, they have validity to them as much as we'd all like there to be no stereotypes of races existing they do & will always exist as long as people are ignorant to the cultures of the different ethnicities that make up this country... & you're right, i doubt the show "Kung Fu" would have succeeded had Bruce Lee been cast as the lead in the show he created because of the close minded viewpoints of the times regarding people of other races living in this country... it's too bad many of those close minded views still exist today.

perhaps I misunderstand you, but are stereotypes a bad thing, in general? Isn't it just a general way to describe a culture or people?

From wikipedia: "A stereotype is a commonly held public belief about specific social groups or types of individuals. The concepts of "stereotype" and "prejudice" are often confused with many other different meanings. Stereotypes are standardized and simplified conceptions of groups based on some prior assumptions. Generally speaking, stereotypes are not based on objective truth but rather subjective and sometimes unverifiable content-matter."

stereotypes breed assumptions & generalizations about an entire ethnic group & they breed ignorance, which then can lead to racist attitudes... negative stereotypes are particularly dangerous... as long as Hollywood continues to proliferate certain negative stereotypes about Asians in general, many people of other ethnicities will continue to believe in their ignorant viewpoints about certain parts of Asian culture & society.

casting an Asian male as a nerdy, non-English speaking immigrant, or a kungfu fighting master or tattooed yakuza mafia member all the time is not showing the Asian American in an accurate light.

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:i agree with your point & i appreciate your counterpoints Nalod, they have validity to them as much as we'd all like there to be no stereotypes of races existing they do & will always exist as long as people are ignorant to the cultures of the different ethnicities that make up this country... & you're right, i doubt the show "Kung Fu" would have succeeded had Bruce Lee been cast as the lead in the show he created because of the close minded viewpoints of the times regarding people of other races living in this country... it's too bad many of those close minded views still exist today.

perhaps I misunderstand you, but are stereotypes a bad thing, in general? Isn't it just a general way to describe a culture or people?

From wikipedia: "A stereotype is a commonly held public belief about specific social groups or types of individuals. The concepts of "stereotype" and "prejudice" are often confused with many other different meanings. Stereotypes are standardized and simplified conceptions of groups based on some prior assumptions. Generally speaking, stereotypes are not based on objective truth but rather subjective and sometimes unverifiable content-matter."

stereotypes breed assumptions & generalizations about an entire ethnic group & they breed ignorance, which then can lead to racist attitudes... negative stereotypes are particularly dangerous... as long as Hollywood continues to proliferate certain negative stereotypes about Asians in general, many people of other ethnicities will continue to believe in their ignorant viewpoints about certain parts of Asian culture & society.

casting an Asian male as a nerdy, non-English speaking immigrant, or a kungfu fighting master or tattooed yakuza mafia member all the time is not showing the Asian American in an accurate light.

TMS, to me, the positive stereotypes are just as dangerous as the negative ones. For example, what if you ultimately become reliant on somebody to live up to their positive stereotype like "Asians are good at math" or something like that. Or more specifically, what if I want to be a high school basketball coach one day (Which I do) and I figured "Oh, the black guys trying out must be great athletes, therefore, they would be great for my team, especially because I want a defensive oriented team, who can also run the break." If I made my team up, based purely on that, I'd have absolutely no clue who I'm actually placing on the team, and I'd be in danger of having a terrible team, therefore making the school look bad and therefore making myself lose a job, and even setting the players up for humiliation.

Negative or positive, stereotyoes just lead to no good.

And hey, I am sorry I put something so simple as a basketball example up, but it is kind of my life, so to me, it's a big deal. Hope you didn't frown on it!

Allanfan20 wrote:

TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:i agree with your point & i appreciate your counterpoints Nalod, they have validity to them as much as we'd all like there to be no stereotypes of races existing they do & will always exist as long as people are ignorant to the cultures of the different ethnicities that make up this country... & you're right, i doubt the show "Kung Fu" would have succeeded had Bruce Lee been cast as the lead in the show he created because of the close minded viewpoints of the times regarding people of other races living in this country... it's too bad many of those close minded views still exist today.

perhaps I misunderstand you, but are stereotypes a bad thing, in general? Isn't it just a general way to describe a culture or people?

From wikipedia: "A stereotype is a commonly held public belief about specific social groups or types of individuals. The concepts of "stereotype" and "prejudice" are often confused with many other different meanings. Stereotypes are standardized and simplified conceptions of groups based on some prior assumptions. Generally speaking, stereotypes are not based on objective truth but rather subjective and sometimes unverifiable content-matter."

stereotypes breed assumptions & generalizations about an entire ethnic group & they breed ignorance, which then can lead to racist attitudes... negative stereotypes are particularly dangerous... as long as Hollywood continues to proliferate certain negative stereotypes about Asians in general, many people of other ethnicities will continue to believe in their ignorant viewpoints about certain parts of Asian culture & society.

casting an Asian male as a nerdy, non-English speaking immigrant, or a kungfu fighting master or tattooed yakuza mafia member all the time is not showing the Asian American in an accurate light.

TMS, to me, the positive stereotypes are just as dangerous as the negative ones. For example, what if you ultimately become reliant on somebody to live up to their positive stereotype like "Asians are good at math" or something like that. Or more specifically, what if I want to be a high school basketball coach one day (Which I do) and I figured "Oh, the black guys trying out must be great athletes, therefore, they would be great for my team, especially because I want a defensive oriented team, who can also run the break." If I made my team up, based purely on that, I'd have absolutely no clue who I'm actually placing on the team, and I'd be in danger of having a terrible team, therefore making the school look bad and therefore making myself lose a job, and even setting the players up for humiliation.

Negative or positive, stereotyoes just lead to no good.

And hey, I am sorry I put something so simple as a basketball example up, but it is kind of my life, so to me, it's a big deal. Hope you didn't frown on it!

A-fan, i agree with you 100%... stereotypes of any kind are not conducive towards breeding a better understanding of any particular race, ethnic group, gender or sexual preference... it leads to breeding ignorance... my objection with the way Hollywood consistently depicts Asians in the media is that people of other cultures only get a very narrow & limited scope view of what Asian ethnic groups are all about... it's akin to if all you ever saw in movies were African American people playing basketball, snatching purses & eating fried chicken, or Latino people cruising around in hoopdies & calling everyone "esse" with a hair net & gang ink on their necks... with things like comedy films it's sometimes funny to poke fun at these types of stereotypes, but when you're constantly bombarded by them even in more serious genre, there is always the danger that it will influence the thinking of the mass audience that takes it in, even subconsciously.

these days i'm starting to see some more positive representation by some very talented Asian youth in dance & talent shows on television that shows we're not all nerdy math geniuses who play the piano & know kungfu, which is a positive sign... hopefully Hollywood follows suit with some of their movies in the near future.

& btw, to NYBocker, i'm sorry if i may have hijacked your Last Airbender thread & turned it into another general racial discussion... just so everyone knows, the reason i always seem to harp on Asian issues regarding racism is because i don't think it's talked about enough or even cared about by a lot of people in this country... maybe it's my tiny little way of trying to raise some awareness of it in some kinda way, even though there's obviously a lot more i could be doing to achieve that... btw, i'm a lazy ass Asian who doesn't have a small penis & sucks at math & isn't afraid to curse you out if you cut me in line... so much for stereotypes... but my parents do own a drycleaners.

martin wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:TMS, Hollywood caters to the american taste.

Didn't Pierce bronson's last Bond movie he had an Asian women who could fight and helped him? She was a hero.

Im not saying your not right, but HOllywood makes movies for Western consumption.

I think you'd have to look at Asian made movies for the asian perspective, not american made movies.

Is that fair? ITs what people want to see and where they are watching from. American movies have always been popular overseas because of the big budget and special effects. I would say the Asian market is huge and lots of movies made have the bigger budget. I do rent foriegn movies a bit and the characters are quite complex at times.

Regarding your tastes and posting pics of pretty women you can justify it as your values but they are posted as sex objects and not as mothers, school teachers, or any intelectual quality. Men do this. Nothing wrong, but look at the snaggle tooth school girl look women. Its revered in some cultures but kinda creepy in another.

Just Rap and Rock and Roll portray women as sluts. Italians and Russians are mobsters, Jews are petty, Irish are drinkers, Wasps are uptight, and Asians are good with gadgets or martial art experts. White males are the hero, the villian, the winner and the losers.

Stereotypes are more intersting then mainstream I suppose. Its what sells.

Michele Yeoh was cast as a special agent for the Chinese Government. They got the casting on this one right.

Western consumption? So white america is the only consumer for hollywood?

When they casted the primary players for the movie they were looking for caucascian actors. When they needed extras they were looking for ethnic people. Nice.

Bocker, Nalod and I have been talking about movies in general, you keep focusing on "Avatar: The Last Airbender". Of course it's stupid to hire white people to play ethnic roles especially when the role itself is defined by it as with the movie you refer to.

In general, movies made by Hollywood do often-times focus on the largest potential audience, ie white folk.

I don't agree that it's stupid to hire white people to play ethnic roles. I can be stupid if there are qualified actors to play that role.

In Libya, Omar Muhktar is a hero. He's even a hero in my book because of what the did and how he did it. Anthony Quinn, a Mexican, played an Arabic Omar Muhktar and he is revered here for his realistic portrayal.

Acting really isn't about realism. I don't think Sean Penn is gay but he nailed "Milk". If it wasn't for Clint Eastwood's performance "Gran Torino" would've been garbage, in large part because of the ethnic casting.

Then, there's the whole script issue. Most people write about what they know. I don't think there are a lot of Asian roles available in Hollywood because of scripting. But if I pick up "Oldboy"--which was ****ing awesome--there's plenty of opportunity for great roles.

I wouldn't know the first thing about writing an authentic Asian character

I hear you man, and relative to the movie and in general its best to have natural actors playing those roles close to their ethnic for the most realistic effect.

Most important though is the character being potrayed proper and not a carature that is offensive. Animae does to a degree make most look anglo.

This kid Noah Ringo to me looks very generic and perhaps the safe approach for world wide distribuition. Im thinking investment here.

But, and this is big, the kid is a third degree blackbelt and is it more important that an Asian kid portray an martial arts fantasy character or one who is almost a master of the art and still just 12 years old, and can act and portray the part?

Getting that big screen magic is not easy. This is a big movie.

Kind of like a basketball movie. They get a kid who can play or a kid that can act? If a good actor looks silly playing, its not a good fit.

In this case this kid is suppose to blow people away.

Apparently not. lol At first I was thinking "WTF is going on here, Avatar was the f'in sheeot." lol

SupremeCommander wrote:

TMS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:TMS, Hollywood caters to the american taste.

Didn't Pierce bronson's last Bond movie he had an Asian women who could fight and helped him? She was a hero.

Im not saying your not right, but HOllywood makes movies for Western consumption.

I think you'd have to look at Asian made movies for the asian perspective, not american made movies.

Is that fair? ITs what people want to see and where they are watching from. American movies have always been popular overseas because of the big budget and special effects. I would say the Asian market is huge and lots of movies made have the bigger budget. I do rent foriegn movies a bit and the characters are quite complex at times.

Regarding your tastes and posting pics of pretty women you can justify it as your values but they are posted as sex objects and not as mothers, school teachers, or any intelectual quality. Men do this. Nothing wrong, but look at the snaggle tooth school girl look women. Its revered in some cultures but kinda creepy in another.

Just Rap and Rock and Roll portray women as sluts. Italians and Russians are mobsters, Jews are petty, Irish are drinkers, Wasps are uptight, and Asians are good with gadgets or martial art experts. White males are the hero, the villian, the winner and the losers.

Stereotypes are more intersting then mainstream I suppose. Its what sells.

Michele Yeoh was cast as a special agent for the Chinese Government. They got the casting on this one right.

Western consumption? So white america is the only consumer for hollywood?

When they casted the primary players for the movie they were looking for caucascian actors. When they needed extras they were looking for ethnic people. Nice.

Bocker, Nalod and I have been talking about movies in general, you keep focusing on "Avatar: The Last Airbender". Of course it's stupid to hire white people to play ethnic roles especially when the role itself is defined by it as with the movie you refer to.

In general, movies made by Hollywood do often-times focus on the largest potential audience, ie white folk.

I don't agree that it's stupid to hire white people to play ethnic roles. I can be stupid if there are qualified actors to play that role.

In Libya, Omar Muhktar is a hero. He's even a hero in my book because of what the did and how he did it. Anthony Quinn, a Mexican, played an Arabic Omar Muhktar and he is revered here for his realistic portrayal.

Acting really isn't about realism. I don't think Sean Penn is gay but he nailed "Milk". If it wasn't for Clint Eastwood's performance "Gran Torino" would've been garbage, in large part because of the ethnic casting.

Then, there's the whole script issue. Most people write about what they know. I don't think there are a lot of Asian roles available in Hollywood because of scripting. But if I pick up "Oldboy"--which was ****ing awesome--there's plenty of opportunity for great roles.

I wouldn't know the first thing about writing an authentic Asian character

movies like OldBoy are open for interpretation... the characters aren't ethnic specific really... a story like Avatar, while fictitious, is based on a character who's backstory is that he grew up in a specific area & was from a certain ethnicity... the storyline has a lot to do with where the story is set... if the director wanted to put his own interpretation into the plot & change the storyline, that's cool... but if he's going to go with how the story is set & make the movie to reflect the actual characters that are in the original cartoon, then IMO he should have cast the main character as an Asian boy with an Asian actor.

this is akin to Jake Gyllenhaal being cast as the Prince of Persia... i've read that there has been some opposition to that decision as well, casting an actor of Swedish/Jewish descent to play a Persian character did not sit well with all.

look, i realize Hollywood's main priority is making money & appealing to the mass audience over making social statements & such... & i also realize that an actor's job is to portray a role convincingly regardless of the ethnic or sexual orientation backstory surrounding the character... i don't place fault with the actors that play these roles... i'm just saying it would be nice for a change to have a movie about an Asian character be cast as an Asian actor... i'm sure there are many others out there that would hope the same when it comes to movies about themes relating to their ethnic groups... Ben Kingsley made an excellent Ghandi & won an Oscar for it... he is of Indian descent... if they had cast Patrick Stewart to play Ghandi instead, would it have been appropriate? i don't think it would have.

I cite the example of Omar Muhktar because people love that movie here. Love it. And it was a Mexican playing an Arab. If the acting itself is good it isn't a slight. Now I haven't seen Prince of Persia, nor will I ever, because I'm guessing the movie is complete ****.

There are examples I'll take exception to, like Greeks playing Arabs in that **** Sandler movie Zohan. That type of stuff is inexcusable. But you see stuff like this all the time in acting. It's acting. It's make believe. As a man should I be offended when a woman is cast as a lead as a boy in a play?

I understand the portrayal isn't accurate and may perpetuate stereotypes... personally, I don't care, because I just look at media as distraction and it is ultimately one of the least important events in the world.

I put much more weight into the works of Yukio Mishima or Khalil Gibran. Most mainstream movie is rubbish designed to take $20 from consumers.

This is one mainstream movie that they will lose money on. They will never see my $120.

Allanfan20 wrote:BTW, I at first thought you were all talking about this movie:

Apparently not. lol At first I was thinking "WTF is going on here, Avatar was the f'in sheeot." lol

if Cameron had a N'avi actors i would hope he would have cast him in that role too.

TMS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:There are examples I'll take exception to, like Greeks playing Arabs in that **** Sandler movie Zohan. That type of stuff is inexcusable.

why is that inexcusable but white people playing Asians isn't?

I apologize if my point was ambiguous, but it isn't always bad to have a different ethnicity portray another one. I'm sure The Last Airbender falls into that category but I don't know. I'll never watch it or research it because I'm not a fan of crap. I agree with you regarding the Mr Miagi stereotype. That said, to me, it's not that important of issue (like, say, how oil drilling is important to allanfan). Mel Gibson isn't a Scot and I happen to love Braveheart. Then again maybe I don't care because I grew up looking at a white Santa Claus. The Zohan comment was made because of how they trashed the Arabs and had Greeks playing Arabs but I can cite that example because, unfortunately, I watched that **** movie and will never get those two hours back.

I'm not going to lie, I kind of resent what this implies. All I'm being is open and I think others on this board know my beliefs regarding race and difference. I was in no way, shape, or form implying Arabs > Asians