TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:the notion that u have to be absolutely horrible to build through the draft is a crock & has been proven year after year... there is star talent that can be had anywhere in the 1st & sometimes the 2nd round every year... the teams that do the best job of researching & scouting talent & also BUILDING UP that talent after they're drafted are able to utilize the draft most effectively... the teams that waste their draft picks year after year & fail to develop their talent don't

How many teams have won the title by drafting a player when they weren't one of the 5 or 6 worst teams in the league? The main exception that comes to mind off the top of my head is Kobe Bryant, but I don't think letting a player like him slip to 13 is something that will happen again; at the time it was taboo to draft a player right out of high school with a high pick, but not anymore.

I 100% agree that you can get good players. But is your goal good players or championships?

wait a second, ur telling me that Tony Parker & Manu G didn't play integral roles in helping the Spurs win their championships?

No, you're misreading me. I'm saying that the teams that won titles did it because of a franchise player and this is almost a constant throughout NBA championship history. If you don't have that franchise player, your championship chances drop almost to 0%. By all means, if we had Tim Duncan, I think you can totally build around them through the draft. But, let's face facts... no Tim Duncan, and the Spurs have no championships.

Relating this to the Knicks, what I'm saying is that the draft is only a viable strategy if you have that franchise player or if you're absolutely horrific. If you're neither, you're likely to stay in mediocrity. Since that was our situation, freeing up the cap room was really the only logical move.

i agree it's unlikely to nab yourself a franchise guy unless you land a top lottery pick, but my argument is that the draft is important every year... u can't just dismiss the draft just because your team isn't sh!tty enough to get a top 5 pick every year & give your picks away unless you're landing some significant talent in return... we gave away a #8 pick & 2 future 1st rounders on a huge gamble... it would be 1 thing if we'd traded those assets for a tangible Allstar player like Bosh or someone else, at least then u can justify the reasoning behind it all... but we gave those assets away just to clear some cap space on a hope & a prayer that we'll be able to land a max FA this summer using that cap space... unless you snag the big prize this summer then how do you justify the move?

Well, like I said, I think the order of acquisition is important. For example, let's say you nab 3 solid, very good starters, putting up numbers only 10-20% below some of the top players in the league. These would be considered very good draft picks. However, because of this, they make your team just good enough to go 35-47. Not terrible enough to have much of a chance at a franchise player now. Not good enough to do much better than cap at 45 wins a few years down the road. That's what I consider no man's land. In a few years, once the rookie deals expire, your team is hopelessly deep in cap hell for 6 more years when it resigns them.

Now, consider plan B. Forego the picks and use them to clear cap room. This seems extreme, but your team has two paths now which carry the high reward that we desire. The first is that there's the obvious cap space to sign a star like LeBron, Wade, etc... as you know. The second is, if we can't get any of those guys, we have the option of just filling up the roster with small one year contracts and hoping to make our team pretty terrible, which might give us a chance at the high pick we desire (in cases where the future picks weren't forfeited in an unprotected manner).

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:the notion that u have to be absolutely horrible to build through the draft is a crock & has been proven year after year... there is star talent that can be had anywhere in the 1st & sometimes the 2nd round every year... the teams that do the best job of researching & scouting talent & also BUILDING UP that talent after they're drafted are able to utilize the draft most effectively... the teams that waste their draft picks year after year & fail to develop their talent don't

How many teams have won the title by drafting a player when they weren't one of the 5 or 6 worst teams in the league? The main exception that comes to mind off the top of my head is Kobe Bryant, but I don't think letting a player like him slip to 13 is something that will happen again; at the time it was taboo to draft a player right out of high school with a high pick, but not anymore.

I 100% agree that you can get good players. But is your goal good players or championships?

wait a second, ur telling me that Tony Parker & Manu G didn't play integral roles in helping the Spurs win their championships?

No, you're misreading me. I'm saying that the teams that won titles did it because of a franchise player and this is almost a constant throughout NBA championship history. If you don't have that franchise player, your championship chances drop almost to 0%. By all means, if we had Tim Duncan, I think you can totally build around them through the draft. But, let's face facts... no Tim Duncan, and the Spurs have no championships.

Relating this to the Knicks, what I'm saying is that the draft is only a viable strategy if you have that franchise player or if you're absolutely horrific. If you're neither, you're likely to stay in mediocrity. Since that was our situation, freeing up the cap room was really the only logical move.

i agree it's unlikely to nab yourself a franchise guy unless you land a top lottery pick, but my argument is that the draft is important every year... u can't just dismiss the draft just because your team isn't sh!tty enough to get a top 5 pick every year & give your picks away unless you're landing some significant talent in return... we gave away a #8 pick & 2 future 1st rounders on a huge gamble... it would be 1 thing if we'd traded those assets for a tangible Allstar player like Bosh or someone else, at least then u can justify the reasoning behind it all... but we gave those assets away just to clear some cap space on a hope & a prayer that we'll be able to land a max FA this summer using that cap space... unless you snag the big prize this summer then how do you justify the move?

Well, like I said, I think the order of acquisition is important. For example, let's say you nab 3 solid, very good starters, putting up numbers only 10-20% below some of the top players in the league. These would be considered very good draft picks. However, because of this, they make your team just good enough to go 35-47. Not terrible enough to have much of a chance at a franchise player now. Not good enough to do much better than cap at 45 wins a few years down the road. That's what I consider no man's land. In a few years, once the rookie deals expire, your team is hopelessly deep in cap hell for 6 more years when it resigns them.

Now, consider plan B. Forego the picks and use them to clear cap room. This seems extreme, but your team has two paths now which carry the high reward that we desire. The first is that there's the obvious cap space to sign a star like LeBron, Wade, etc... as you know. The second is, if we can't get any of those guys, we have the option of just filling up the roster with small one year contracts and hoping to make our team pretty terrible, which might give us a chance at the high pick we desire (in cases where the future picks weren't forfeited in an unprotected manner).

if you get the protection like we got with the jj trade under option b, option b had better work or its gonna be messy. the swap with houston could backfire even if we do tank, and the same goes for the traded pick after that.

thats too much hedging on landing the $$$ fa, or not sucking so much that the swap/traded picks wont hurt to lose. thats what we did with marbury/curry. past perf isnt indicative of future results however no one has pulled off what this team is trying to do yet either. i hope it works, it just seems like the failback plan doesnt exist yet, not that we fans would know what it is anyway.

TMS wrote:the notion that u have to be absolutely horrible to build through the draft is a crock & has been proven year after year... there is star talent that can be had anywhere in the 1st & sometimes the 2nd round every year... the teams that do the best job of researching & scouting talent & also BUILDING UP that talent after they're drafted are able to utilize the draft most effectively... the teams that waste their draft picks year after year & fail to develop their talent don't

It has? Cite examples.

Star talent? Again cite examples and show why the Knicks who would continously pick around 8-10 would somehow pick up franchise talent.
?
Develop their own? Who is David Lee, Nate Robinson, Trevor Ariza, Collins, Balkman, and Douglas?

Oh, they are rookies the Knicks played in games.

Are you STILL crying about Jordan Hill? The POS even Houston STOPPED playing because, get this he sucks?

Is this what you are whining about? Still?

Well, hey I'm talking to someone who still thinks that Crawful and Zachass were destined to be franchise cornerstones on a championship bound team.

Panos wrote:Y'all gotta simmer down. What's the point of all this? We'll all know within a month if it was worth it or not.
Why waste your time arguing about it?

they must have that greek passion..

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

Panos wrote:Y'all gotta simmer down. What's the point of all this? We'll all know within a month if it was worth it or not.
Why waste your time arguing about it?

they must have that greek passion..

Fans Throw Explosives At Referees In Greek League Finals

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2010/06/fans-throw-explosives-at-referees-in-greek-league-finals-video/

Hilarious, and typical European houliganism.

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:the notion that u have to be absolutely horrible to build through the draft is a crock & has been proven year after year... there is star talent that can be had anywhere in the 1st & sometimes the 2nd round every year... the teams that do the best job of researching & scouting talent & also BUILDING UP that talent after they're drafted are able to utilize the draft most effectively... the teams that waste their draft picks year after year & fail to develop their talent don't

How many teams have won the title by drafting a player when they weren't one of the 5 or 6 worst teams in the league? The main exception that comes to mind off the top of my head is Kobe Bryant, but I don't think letting a player like him slip to 13 is something that will happen again; at the time it was taboo to draft a player right out of high school with a high pick, but not anymore.

I 100% agree that you can get good players. But is your goal good players or championships?

wait a second, ur telling me that Tony Parker & Manu G didn't play integral roles in helping the Spurs win their championships?

No, you're misreading me. I'm saying that the teams that won titles did it because of a franchise player and this is almost a constant throughout NBA championship history. If you don't have that franchise player, your championship chances drop almost to 0%. By all means, if we had Tim Duncan, I think you can totally build around them through the draft. But, let's face facts... no Tim Duncan, and the Spurs have no championships.

Relating this to the Knicks, what I'm saying is that the draft is only a viable strategy if you have that franchise player or if you're absolutely horrific. If you're neither, you're likely to stay in mediocrity. Since that was our situation, freeing up the cap room was really the only logical move.

i agree it's unlikely to nab yourself a franchise guy unless you land a top lottery pick, but my argument is that the draft is important every year... u can't just dismiss the draft just because your team isn't sh!tty enough to get a top 5 pick every year & give your picks away unless you're landing some significant talent in return... we gave away a #8 pick & 2 future 1st rounders on a huge gamble... it would be 1 thing if we'd traded those assets for a tangible Allstar player like Bosh or someone else, at least then u can justify the reasoning behind it all... but we gave those assets away just to clear some cap space on a hope & a prayer that we'll be able to land a max FA this summer using that cap space... unless you snag the big prize this summer then how do you justify the move?

Well, like I said, I think the order of acquisition is important. For example, let's say you nab 3 solid, very good starters, putting up numbers only 10-20% below some of the top players in the league. These would be considered very good draft picks. However, because of this, they make your team just good enough to go 35-47. Not terrible enough to have much of a chance at a franchise player now. Not good enough to do much better than cap at 45 wins a few years down the road. That's what I consider no man's land. In a few years, once the rookie deals expire, your team is hopelessly deep in cap hell for 6 more years when it resigns them.

Now, consider plan B. Forego the picks and use them to clear cap room. This seems extreme, but your team has two paths now which carry the high reward that we desire. The first is that there's the obvious cap space to sign a star like LeBron, Wade, etc... as you know. The second is, if we can't get any of those guys, we have the option of just filling up the roster with small one year contracts and hoping to make our team pretty terrible, which might give us a chance at the high pick we desire (in cases where the future picks weren't forfeited in an unprotected manner).

i think over the history of the NBA you can cite several examples where teams amassed young assets & were able to build a championship calibre team... i don't think there has been any precedent set for a team clearing cap space in an all out attempt at attracting 2 max money FA's that vaulted the franchise to a title that i know of... the path that DW took was the much more risky path, & one that has never been proven to net longterm success... we will see in a few weeks if he looks like a genius or if his plan blows up in his face.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I don't think the 2011 and 2012 picks are almost meaningless. Right now there is a rumor that one of those picks could be used to net Anthony Randolph or as part of a sign and trade to get Chris Bosh. I also am not as confident that Donnie's plan will be as successful as some. If the Knicks end up coming away with some combination of Joe Johnson and a power forward (Amare, Lee, or Boozer). If that is what happens there could be significant value in those picks.
In my opinion, the Hill and picks trade was made because Dolan pushed Walsh to do it. I think Donnie is too smart and experienced to give up as much as he did.

I don't see Dolan being savvy nor involved enough to have "pushed" for the trade. DW was itching for a chance to clear JJ2 and get that extra money for a 2nd MAX FA. The whole plan hinges on being able to convince top FA's that this team can be QUICKLY built into a top contender. The only way that happens is to add 2 Elite players and pairing them up with Gallo and some solid role players. I think DW has some trades already worked out with other GM's under different scenarios.

DW is no fool and he and his staff have been working on this for a long time. Other GM's will want to get in on the action and move contracts to teams like NY that are looking to fill out roster spots. I say that the picks have little value cuz there's almost no chance that after making a trade with another team that this team would be in the lottery. So if we use those picks to bring in a talent like A. Randolph or a guy like Bosh, just where do you think we'd be drafting 1-2 years from now? So why would a team see those picks as valuable? Our picks really had value when teams felt we would likely be losers. Picking up talent like Bosh won't allow us to be losers anymore.

as you noted, the current path taken must include elite talent or walsh is gonna have some .... interesting times.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:the notion that u have to be absolutely horrible to build through the draft is a crock & has been proven year after year... there is star talent that can be had anywhere in the 1st & sometimes the 2nd round every year... the teams that do the best job of researching & scouting talent & also BUILDING UP that talent after they're drafted are able to utilize the draft most effectively... the teams that waste their draft picks year after year & fail to develop their talent don't

How many teams have won the title by drafting a player when they weren't one of the 5 or 6 worst teams in the league? The main exception that comes to mind off the top of my head is Kobe Bryant, but I don't think letting a player like him slip to 13 is something that will happen again; at the time it was taboo to draft a player right out of high school with a high pick, but not anymore.

I 100% agree that you can get good players. But is your goal good players or championships?

wait a second, ur telling me that Tony Parker & Manu G didn't play integral roles in helping the Spurs win their championships?

No, you're misreading me. I'm saying that the teams that won titles did it because of a franchise player and this is almost a constant throughout NBA championship history. If you don't have that franchise player, your championship chances drop almost to 0%. By all means, if we had Tim Duncan, I think you can totally build around them through the draft. But, let's face facts... no Tim Duncan, and the Spurs have no championships.

Relating this to the Knicks, what I'm saying is that the draft is only a viable strategy if you have that franchise player or if you're absolutely horrific. If you're neither, you're likely to stay in mediocrity. Since that was our situation, freeing up the cap room was really the only logical move.

i agree it's unlikely to nab yourself a franchise guy unless you land a top lottery pick, but my argument is that the draft is important every year... u can't just dismiss the draft just because your team isn't sh!tty enough to get a top 5 pick every year & give your picks away unless you're landing some significant talent in return... we gave away a #8 pick & 2 future 1st rounders on a huge gamble... it would be 1 thing if we'd traded those assets for a tangible Allstar player like Bosh or someone else, at least then u can justify the reasoning behind it all... but we gave those assets away just to clear some cap space on a hope & a prayer that we'll be able to land a max FA this summer using that cap space... unless you snag the big prize this summer then how do you justify the move?

Well, like I said, I think the order of acquisition is important. For example, let's say you nab 3 solid, very good starters, putting up numbers only 10-20% below some of the top players in the league. These would be considered very good draft picks. However, because of this, they make your team just good enough to go 35-47. Not terrible enough to have much of a chance at a franchise player now. Not good enough to do much better than cap at 45 wins a few years down the road. That's what I consider no man's land. In a few years, once the rookie deals expire, your team is hopelessly deep in cap hell for 6 more years when it resigns them.

Now, consider plan B. Forego the picks and use them to clear cap room. This seems extreme, but your team has two paths now which carry the high reward that we desire. The first is that there's the obvious cap space to sign a star like LeBron, Wade, etc... as you know. The second is, if we can't get any of those guys, we have the option of just filling up the roster with small one year contracts and hoping to make our team pretty terrible, which might give us a chance at the high pick we desire (in cases where the future picks weren't forfeited in an unprotected manner).

i think over the history of the NBA you can cite several examples where teams amassed young assets & were able to build a championship calibre team... i don't think there has been any precedent set for a team clearing cap space in an all out attempt at attracting 2 max money FA's that vaulted the franchise to a title that i know of... the path that DW took was the much more risky path, & one that has never been proven to net longterm success... we will see in a few weeks if he looks like a genius or if his plan blows up in his face.

I still don't see how the tried and true method holds for our situation. Gallo, TD = Good draft value. Hill = good prospect, but needs time. No 2010 1st rd pick. 2 2010 2nd rd picks. 2011 and 2012 picks. OK if we use the cap space we had which was pretty good, but don't do the Hill trade, just where will we be picking in 2011 and 2012? It's gonna be NBA Mediocrity type picks, cuz we won't have the worst record in the NBA after the FA signings.

This isn't about historical precedent. This is about our specific situation and the options for building a title contending team. There's no traditional option that could get us there within two years. DW's plan is bold, but makes sense when in 2 successive FA classes there will be Elite players available to simply sign or do sign n trades for. Once again, our picks would hold less value in sign n trades if the teams know we'd be signing Lebron and Bosh using those picks. They're just fluff at that point.

if we have ownership of our draft picks in '11 & '12 along with Jordan Hill & 2 expiring contracts plus ~$23M in cap space this summer u don't think that gives DW some ammo to make possible deals with? can't agree w/u there.