Nalod wrote:BItty, its not the numbers. Think with your heart, with your reasoning, not with Numbers.

My point is one side fights to preserve life and the other discounts.

Perhaps a mistake was made on that boat but they were baiting them into a confrontation. Israel should have done better knowing this.

But lets be real here, there are lots of ways to peace but you have to have a willing partner. Israel has made many concessions over the years but to no avail.

The graphics depict some views I agree with.

YOu can debate many things, but some cannot.

I am bias emotionally on this one.

I don't buy this argument that one side fights to preserve life. That is extremely condescending BS, tell that to the numerous Palestinian civilians that routinely get written off as collateral damage. Israel has made absolutely zero effort at peace, every year hey have encroached further and further into Jerusalem, while spinning their hyperbole about peace. They get a pass from Western countries that have no interest in holding up the rights of Palestinians. Israel has developed nuclear weapons without any sanctions being imposed on them by the UN, but just see what's happening to Iran. And no one can convince me Iran is more prone to war than Israel, cause that is complete utter crock. They occupy a sovereign nation that is rendered impotent and doesn't even have an army. If the US was similarly occupied would you be defending the occupants?

Bippity10 wrote:

bitty41 wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I wonder what the opinions would be if Canada or Mexico were lobbing dozens of missiles into New York City on a daily basis. It's easy to judge from afar.

^this pisses me off. If you have something to offer up towards the discussion then do so but just chiming for a potshot is a cheap move. I'm not trying to change minds or prevent people from offering up opposing opinions this is strictly a dialogue (relating to the Freedom Flotilla incident). And if you really want to get technical the last time I checked I'm a American citizen and as such my tax dollars as well as millions other Americans tax dollars go towards Israeli's military so yea we can kinda of judge them from afar.

Who cares if it pisses you off. It's not a pot shot, it's how I feel. I do not apologize for that. If New Jersey was smuggling in arms and lobbing rockets into downtown Manhattan your perspective would be different. Rockets are indiscriminately fired into their cities and yet the world asks them to let all the ships through. Would we? Would anyone? If we started lobbing rockets into Mexico on a daily basis what would the world's reaction be? What would yours be?

Of course you can judge Israel from afar. No one is telling you to stop so don't take it personally. Just saying, when judging a situation realize that you are seeing things completely different then those people that are actually sitting in the country where rockets are fired at them on a regular basis. What country would put up with that. I disagree with a lot of what Israel does, but blockades to protect your country are not one of them for me. I also was not on the ship, so am cautious with my condemnation or side taking.

What country would put up with 100 years of forced occupation where its indigenous people are treated as second class citizens and randomly labelled as terrorists for trying to win their country back?

Bippity10 wrote:

oohah wrote:

The Palestinians were never forced from their land!!! Read my posts from the beginning of the thread. Palestinians were offered to stay and live in peace with equal rights and to be able to maintain their culture, lifestyle and religion. Some stayed; most left because the armies of 5 Arab nations jointly attacked Israel to wipe out/purge every Jewish man, woman, and child from the Land.

That is not accurate. Some Arabs left in order to not be in the middle of a war but others were absolutely forced from their homes, murdered, pillaged, and raped. Yes raped. The nature of how Israel was won has been swept under the rug in Western historical documentation. But if you read the writings of the men who actually formed Israel you will see that it was a very dirty business. "Adventurism" Come on Markji, there is no way a whole population can be displaced nicely.

And does that even sound right to you anyway? What if some government said right now" that all Jewish people can stay in Israel with equal rights -- "But hey! We're going to move in 4 million Arabs so it can be a Muslim state! Don't worry you'll be treated great!" I bet you would not think that is okay, would you? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you think it is okay when it is Europeans moving in on Arabs.

Speaking of equal rights, where have all of those equal rights gone? Did Israel honor that promise? Do you really think an Arab citizen in Israel has equal rights to that of a Jewish person? Really? And what about the right of return of the displaced population? Why haven't treaties and borders been honored for the past 43 years?

By the way, were you aware of the Jewish militant groups that committed acts of terrorism in the forming of the state of Israel? Was that okay?

***

Here is what I always do Markji: I forget about who I am supposed to be on the side of and look at both sides. I read facts and history from both sides. Then I contemplate. And here is my conclusion: Bussing in Millions of Jewish people from Europe and Russia on top of a population that was already there cannot be considered right by any person who believes in the instrinsic rights of humans.

Yes, you are correct that Jewish people have always made lives in Israel. They were considered part of the community and many were "pilgrims". And they were treated better (Not perfectly) than Israel has treated their Arab brothers. Jewish people throughout history have fled Christian persecution in Europe and taken refuge in Muslim countries and made very good lives. There were enormous Jewish communities in different parts of the Middle East, and they prospered and lived in peace before Israel came about. Baghdad, Syria, Iran. (I can't remember what the names of the country were back then off the top of my head. I think Turkey ruled them.) Jewish people living in Muslim Spain referred to it as the "golden age". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

For that matter what about equal rights for all Jewish people in Israel? Were you aware that a great deal of the Jewish people who were expelled from Arab countries (Which was a terrible, terrible thing.) in reaction to the creation of Israel still hold a grudge toward Israel? And find that they don't get equal treatment as Ashkenazim Jewish people? Were you aware that Ethiopian Jewish people were not admitted to Israel until the mid-1980's?

***

Markji, there was a time when Americans faced similar threats that Israel did. It was when we were expanding the American territory and killing Indians. We claimed divine right back then too. South Africa had a similar problem.

I never think violence is alright no matter who commits it. But, thinking clearly, perhaps if Israel treated the Palestinians like people with equal rights -- and you and I both know they don't have have not for 63 years -- security would not have to be so tight.

By the way, when I was a teenager, I accepted the American propaganda about Israel because I did not know any better. One of my best friends, a Jewish kid I grew up with since we Junior high, whose family lost many members in the holocaust, his family told me to look at what actually is going on over there and not just accept what the papers and media said.

I'm done. Everybody should be able to live in peace no matter their religion or ethnicity or nationality.

oohah

So once again I ask, what is the solution?

Admitting that Palestinian rights have been violated for the past hundred years would be a good start.

loweyecue wrote:

Nalod wrote:BItty, its not the numbers. Think with your heart, with your reasoning, not with Numbers.

My point is one side fights to preserve life and the other discounts.

Perhaps a mistake was made on that boat but they were baiting them into a confrontation. Israel should have done better knowing this.

But lets be real here, there are lots of ways to peace but you have to have a willing partner. Israel has made many concessions over the years but to no avail.

The graphics depict some views I agree with.

YOu can debate many things, but some cannot.

I am bias emotionally on this one.

I don't buy this argument that one side fights to preserve life. That is extremely condescending BS, tell that to the numerous Palestinian civilians that routinely get written off as collateral damage. Israel has made absolutely zero effort at peace, every year hey have encroached further and further into Jerusalem, while spinning their hyperbole about peace. They get a pass from Western countries that have no interest in holding up the rights of Palestinians. Israel has developed nuclear weapons without any sanctions being imposed on them by the UN, but just see what's happening to Iran. And no one can convince me Iran is more prone to war than Israel, cause that is complete utter crock. They occupy a sovereign nation that is rendered impotent and doesn't even have an army. If the US was similarly occupied would you be defending the occupants?

your not even close enough to respond to. your factually impotent.

Bippity10 wrote:

Markji wrote:fer during war. It isn't right and it isn't fair. And I wish there wasn't any fighting and everyone lived in peace and happiness.

How to bring peace? Not by running a blockade and starting a confrontation which everyone knew was going to cause trouble. Bring peace by diffusing the tensions and stress in the collective consciousness of the region and in the individuals.

It would be great if the Palestinian/Israeli govt's decided to work together to prevent weapons being smuggled in. Or even better if the Palestinians stopped teh smuggling on their own, without Israel. That cooperation would go a long way in sewing the seeds of future cooperation and possible peace. The problem is that the very people we are asking Israel to work with are the very people that are trying to smuggle the rockets in. Now Israel can say okay, let's stop the blockade and place our trust in you. Now what happens if the rockets still come? At that point what is Israel allowed to do?

Israel vows to stop aid ship as it approaches Gaza

FILE - the Irish-flagged ship the MV Rachel Corrie. The ship was named after an American college student crushed to death by an Israeli Army bulldozer while protesting house demolitions in Gaza. Greta Berlin, a spokesman for the Free Gaza group, said Friday June 4, 2010 the 1,200-ton Rachel Corrie is heading directly to Gaza and will not stop in any port on the way. (AP Photo/FreeGaza.org) NO SALESJERUSALEM (AP) -

Israel vowed Friday to keep an Irish aid ship from breaching its blockade of the Gaza Strip, setting the stage for another maritime showdown as the vessel made its way toward the impoverished Palestinian territory.

The fear of more violence loomed large as Israel stood fast by its blockade, despite rising pressure to lift it following Monday's raid against another aid ship that left nine activists dead.

An Irish Nobel Peace Prize laureate on the ship, Mairead Corrigan, said activists were determined to press on but would offer no resistance if Israeli forces came aboard.

"We will sit down," she told The Associated Press in a telephone interview from the ship. "They will probably arrest us ... But there will be no resistance."

The Free Gaza Movement said on its website that the ship, the 1,200-ton Rachel Corrie, would reach Gaza by Saturday morning.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told his Cabinet on Thursday night that the boat would not reach the territory. On Friday, Israel's foreign ministry said the policy had not changed.

"There is a maritime blockade on Gaza," ministry director Yossi Gal told reporters in Jerusalem.

The new effort to break the blockade will test Israel's resolve as it faces a wave of international outrage following Monday's botched raid, in which Israeli commandos clashed with activists after rappelling onto a ship from helicopters. Eight Turks and an American of Turkish descent were killed and hundreds of others on the ship were arrested and later deported.

The fallout has increased pressure to end the embargo that has plunged Gaza's 1.5 million residents deeper into poverty and sharply raised Mideast tensions at a time the U.S. is making a new push for regional peace.

Israel has urged the activists to bring the ship to the southern Israeli port of Ashdod and promised to transfer all cargo save any weapons or weapons components. The activists rejected the Israeli offer.

Netanyahu has instructed the Israeli military to avoid harming the passengers on board the Rachel Corrie, a participant at Thursday night's Cabinet meeting said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because the meeting was closed.

Gal said Israel has "no desire to board the ship. If the ship decides to sail to the (southern Israeli) port of Ashdod, then we will ensure its safe arrival and will not board it."

In Washington, the State Department said U.S. officials had been in touch with "multiple" countries, including the Israeli and Irish governments, about the latest effort.

"Everyone wants to avoid a repetition of this tragic incident," spokesman P.J. Crowley said. He added that the U.S. had been in contact numerous times with Israeli authorities in recent weeks. "We urged caution and restraint," he said.

International condemnation continued Friday, with protests in Syria, Greece, Bahrain and Malaysia, where some demonstrators burned Israeli flags and carried mock coffins. In Norway, the military canceled a seminar scheduled for later this month because an Israeli army officer was to have lectured.

Israel has allowed ships through five times, but has blocked them from entering Gaza waters since a three-week military offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers in January 2009.

Israeli claims the activists ambushed the commandos after they descended onto the board from helicopters on Monday, and the military and Turkish TV have released videotape that backs up that claim. Returning activists admitted fighting with the Israeli commandos but insisted their actions were in self-defense because the ships were being boarded in international waters by a military force.

All of the violence took place on the lead boat, the Mavi Marmara, which was carrying hundreds of activists sponsored by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief. Israel outlawed the group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, in 2008 because of alleged ties to Hamas.

Activists say Israel sabotaged the previous aid flotilla, but Israeli defense officials said Friday only that unspecified "actions" were taken when the boats were still far from Gaza that delayed the flotilla. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the information was classified.

Activists said immediately after the raid that the violence would not deter them from sending more ships, and the Rachel Corrie continued on course for Gaza, carrying hundreds of tons of aid, including wheelchairs, medical supplies and concrete. Eleven passengers were on board, including Corrigan and a former U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Iraq, Denis Halliday.

"We will not be diverted anywhere else. We head to Gaza in order to deliver the humanitarian aid and to break the siege of Gaza," Corrigan said. "As human rights activists we want to see Israel uphold human rights and international law and end the military occupation of Palestine and move forward."

Halliday told Israel's Channel 2 TV the cargo had been inspected three different times in Ireland by trade unions and government officials, "so we are 100 percent confident that there is nothing that is offensive or dangerous or otherwise." He acknowledged that Israel might object to the 500 tons of cement on board; Israel claims militants can use the cement for battle purposes.

The vessel is named for an American college student who was crushed to death in 2003 by a bulldozer while protesting Israeli house demolitions in Gaza.

Greta Berlin, a spokesman for the Free Gaza group, said in Nicosia that the cargo ship was headed directly to Gaza and would not stop in any port on the way.

The standoff has particularly strained Israel's relationship with once-close ally Turkey.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan kept up the tough rhetoric on Friday, telling a crowd that "nobody should test Turkey's patience."

"Even if the world turns a blind eye to the massacre, Turkey will never do so," he said in a speech in the central Turkish city of Konya that was punctuated with calls of "down with Israel" from the crowd.

Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc also announced Turkey was downsizing its economic and defense cooperation with Israel.

Some 20,000 people, meanwhile, waved Turkish, Palestinian and Hezbollah flags at a memorial service in Istanbul for an American-born IHH member who activists say was killed while taking pictures of the Israeli commando raid.

Anger also was high as 10,000 people turned out to bury the youngest of the nine activists killed, 19-year-old Furkan Dogan in the central Turkish town of Kayseri.

"Neither I nor his mother or brother have any grief," his father, Ahmet Dogan, told the AP as he arranged flowers on his son's coffin before prayers started. "We believe he became a martyr and God accepts martyrs to paradise."

___

Associated Press Writers Sarah El Deeb in Cairo, David Rising in Istanbul, Menelaos Hadjicostis in Nicosia, Matti Friedman in Jerusalem, Selcan Hacaoglu in Istanbul and Burhan Ozbilici in Kayseri contributed to this report.

© 2010 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

Nalod wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Nalod wrote:BItty, its not the numbers. Think with your heart, with your reasoning, not with Numbers.

My point is one side fights to preserve life and the other discounts.

Perhaps a mistake was made on that boat but they were baiting them into a confrontation. Israel should have done better knowing this.

But lets be real here, there are lots of ways to peace but you have to have a willing partner. Israel has made many concessions over the years but to no avail.

The graphics depict some views I agree with.

YOu can debate many things, but some cannot.

I am bias emotionally on this one.

I don't buy this argument that one side fights to preserve life. That is extremely condescending BS, tell that to the numerous Palestinian civilians that routinely get written off as collateral damage. Israel has made absolutely zero effort at peace, every year hey have encroached further and further into Jerusalem, while spinning their hyperbole about peace. They get a pass from Western countries that have no interest in holding up the rights of Palestinians. Israel has developed nuclear weapons without any sanctions being imposed on them by the UN, but just see what's happening to Iran. And no one can convince me Iran is more prone to war than Israel, cause that is complete utter crock. They occupy a sovereign nation that is rendered impotent and doesn't even have an army. If the US was similarly occupied would you be defending the occupants?

your not even close enough to respond to. your factually impotent.

Do you deny that Israeli military action has killed Palestinian civilians?
Or that they keep increasing the bounds of their settlements each year?

loweyecue wrote:

firefly wrote:Loweycue, I was very much enjoying the debate between bip, mark, bitty and oohah. Your comments are ignorant, ininformed and riddled with historical errors. Perhaps let them do the talking?

This is an very emotional issue for me and I get carried away. But if you don't want to read my posts its easy to ignore them.

loweyecue wrote:

Markji wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

firefly wrote:Loweycue, I was very much enjoying the debate between bip, mark, bitty and oohah. Your comments are ignorant, ininformed and riddled with historical errors. Perhaps let them do the talking?

This is an very emotional issue for me and I get carried away. But if you don't want to read my posts its easy to ignore them.

It is an emotional issue for the entire world which has been going on for centuries. I would guess that you are of Lebanonese or Arab American origins which would make it more personal for you. But try not to take it personally.

I am an Indian, and not of Arabic or Islamic origin. It is personal to me because of some other reasons which I will not get into over here. When people write random generalizations like what's been posted here, its hard NOT to take it personally.

The Indian sub-continent has experienced a somewhat similar situation as Palestine. India and Pakistan gained independence Aug 15, 1947 after being ruled by Great Britain who divided up the sub-continent into 2 nations against Gandhi's desire. Fighting immediately erupted and a number of wars and numerous conflicts have continued and the governance of Kashmir is still in dispute and is partially occupied by both nations.

Palestine/Israel gained independence in May 1948 (9 months later)after being ruled by Great Britain, who divided up the area into Palestine and Israel, and then walked away, knowing full well that there would be immediate bloodshed. The wars and conflicts have continued since then. One would have thought that Britain would have done a better job in overseeing the granting of independence and maintaining peace.