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Hawks playoff struggles not Joe Johnson's fault? Apparently Mike Woodsons...
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iSergio
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5/10/2010  2:43 PM
I like Wilson Chandler but he's no Joe Johnson. Chandler isn't even as good as Rudy Gay.
AUTOADVERT
misterearl
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5/10/2010  2:49 PM
After people at Philips Arena booed Johnson and the team for their lackluster effort in the 105-75 defeat, Johnson told reporters, he "could care less if [fans] showed up or not.”

After Sunday's practice, Johnson explained his frustration, that the level of displeasure in the seats was disconcerting.

“I don’t think we’ve heard the boos like that in the five years since I’ve been here,” he said. “When I first got here, man, there were probably like 100 people out there in those seats. I won’t say everybody is a die-hard, but they’ve shown us a lot of support over the years. In the heat of the battle you tend to say a lot of things. But it was tough, man. I was a little [ticked] off, but I am over it now.”

No to Joe

once a knick always a knick
Pharzeone
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5/10/2010  5:47 PM
I actually posted what Chandler did at the SG spot vs. what Joe Johnson did at the SG awhile ago to breakdown Joe Johnson's game. The sad thing for Joe is that he isn't head and shoulders above Chandler. And that says more about Joe than Wilson. Joe Johnson is a volume bad shooter. But unlike Gilbert, he isn't that great of a shooter but continues to believe he is so.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
sebstar
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5/10/2010  6:17 PM
misterearl wrote:Bitty41 - Chandler has improved statistically every year in the league and this season he played well despite a summer of inactivity and a leg injury that never completely healed

What area is Joe Johnson more productive and polished than The Mayor?

Certainly NOT on defense

I feel this.

And Wilson Chandler at 22 > Joe Johnson at 22 ....

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bitty41
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5/10/2010  7:13 PM
I get that Joe Johnson is having a ****ty playoffs but it's absurd how much Knick fans overrate some of our players. Outside of Al Harrington and T-Mac no one else on the Knicks team has even been in a playoff game. The three seasons Wilson Chandler has been in the league he's been mostly stagnant this year he should have had a stand-out similar to what David Lee did but no he had the same mediocre season he always does. Not bad but not great either he can't even put up big numbers on a bad team. Now that's become the easiest thing in the NBA. Now he may get better but honestly I think the guy quickly approaching his ceiling. He's been given the minutes, opportunities, and he just lacks aggressiveness on a nightly basis. Joe Johnson has been for better or worse putting up all-star numbers for the past 5, 6 seasons and his teams are making the playoffs. So we all can criticize him but at the end of the day where is his team and where are the Knicks in May?
AnubisADL
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5/10/2010  7:22 PM
bitty41 wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:Im a fan of Rudy Gay but he is no SG. If you sign a guy a Rudy Gay you need a guy like McGrady to mentor and work with him.


McGrady mentor surely you are joking? He could maybe teach Gay how to fake injuries but in all seriousness there is all ready questions about Gay's work ethic and having someone like McGrady "mentor" whould be a disaster.

Rudy Gay has all the tools but he has yet to put them together consistently. It is actually disturbing. I have been waiting for him to breakout for 2 yrs now. I see more of the same every year.

NY Knicks - Retirement home for players and GMs
Pharzeone
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5/10/2010  7:41 PM
To me it's not about Joe Johnson's playoff performance but his time in Atlanta as a whole. This is about Joe Johnson and what he has done since his departure from Phoenix. I guess what the article that the OP tries to put some of the blame on Woodson's shoulders but I don't buy it. Joe Johnson has been a bad volume shooter meaning that he is going to get his no matter what. In and outside the flow of the game. If that means holding the ball for 12 secs to decide whether he wants to take his guy off the dribble or pull up for a shot. I seen games where he jacks up shots while Williams has his hands extended or Horford has to reposition himself in and out of the lane. He gets pissed when Josh blows him off because hey Josh knows the deal. 22 points on 42% shooting, playing 39 minutes a game while only dishing out 4 assists. If Chandler or Harrington for that matter put up those stats we would be blasting worse than we currently are.

On the playoffs that people like to throw around. When will be acknowledge that the Hawks making the playoffs, has more to do with the maturity of Smith and Horford. When Joe was given the sole keys to team. The Hawks were in the lottery. I remember the Atlanta sport talk shows when people who constantly called up to bitch about Joe and this isn't the player they thought they were getting. As the the team pulled back from the next year, low and behold they had to fight for the last spot in the east but it was more of a team effort. And now this year in the playoffs where they say ok Joe you run the show, he has been to look even less than worthy of his current contract and making Carter look like a player reborn and Jennings look like an all-star. Joe is still getting his bad shots but they have been magnified in these two series.

I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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5/10/2010  7:46 PM
misterearl wrote:After people at Philips Arena booed Johnson and the team for their lackluster effort in the 105-75 defeat, Johnson told reporters, he "could care less if [fans] showed up or not.”

After Sunday's practice, Johnson explained his frustration, that the level of displeasure in the seats was disconcerting.

“I don’t think we’ve heard the boos like that in the five years since I’ve been here,” he said. “When I first got here, man, there were probably like 100 people out there in those seats. I won’t say everybody is a die-hard, but they’ve shown us a lot of support over the years. In the heat of the battle you tend to say a lot of things. But it was tough, man. I was a little [ticked] off, but I am over it now.”

No to Joe

That's a huge exaggeration on his part. I guess I was one of the "100" but the crowds were of course smaller. That had to do more with the Spirit and Atlanta fans period than anything Joe did or didn't do. When the lowly Knicks came to Atlanta that arena was still able to fill out. And in his first year there were plenty of boo birds.

I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
bitty41
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5/10/2010  8:09 PM
Pharzeone wrote:To me it's not about Joe Johnson's playoff performance but his time in Atlanta as a whole. This is about Joe Johnson and what he has done since his departure from Phoenix. I guess what the article that the OP tries to put some of the blame on Woodson's shoulders but I don't buy it. Joe Johnson has been a bad volume shooter meaning that he is going to get his no matter what. In and outside the flow of the game. If that means holding the ball for 12 secs to decide whether he wants to take his guy off the dribble or pull up for a shot. I seen games where he jacks up shots while Williams has his hands extended or Horford has to reposition himself in and out of the lane. He gets pissed when Josh blows him off because hey Josh knows the deal. 22 points on 42% shooting, playing 39 minutes a game while only dishing out 4 assists. If Chandler or Harrington for that matter put up those stats we would be blasting worse than we currently are.

On the playoffs that people like to throw around. When will be acknowledge that the Hawks making the playoffs, has more to do with the maturity of Smith and Horford. When Joe was given the sole keys to team. The Hawks were in the lottery. I remember the Atlanta sport talk shows when people who constantly called up to bitch about Joe and this isn't the player they thought they were getting. As the the team pulled back from the next year, low and behold they had to fight for the last spot in the east but it was more of a team effort. And now this year in the playoffs where they say ok Joe you run the show, he has been to look even less than worthy of his current contract and making Carter look like a player reborn and Jennings look like an all-star. Joe is still getting his bad shots but they have been magnified in these two series.

Do I think Joe Johnson is a 1st team all NBA players absolutely not but do I think he's an all-star caliber player. Do I think he would be more suited in the role of a 2nd, 3rd option player yes. But does any of this negate the success he has had and remember he was solid contributor to that Phoenix team a team that was vastly more talented than Atlanta. But the real problem is the NBA they've created a system where there is no distinction btw all-star caliber vs MVP caliber players because both sets are getting paid similar salaries and they both are being handed over the reigns of their organizations. We've seen this time and time again in the NBA. Now for some reason fans bought into this falsehood that Joe Johnson was suppose to be an MVP type player and that reality has set-in they want tear him down. The organization has laid it his feet to put up big numbers so what he does he do? He shoots regardless if it's a good shot or a bad shot because guess what he's their so-called franchise player. Atlanta committed to him and now they are just rolling with the punches.

Joe Johnson is meeting expectation just like the Hawks are meeting expectations. I never thought he was better than All-Star caliber player just like I never thought the Hawks were better than a 2nd round exit. Whereas I don't think Chandler has shown himself to be no better than a solid 3rd, 4th option and he's totally unproven and thus far hasn't had good success. Is Chandler better than Ariza, AI, Tayshun Prince, Luol Deng, Jeff Green, Gerald Wallace, John Salmons, I just named 7 guys who weren't even all-stars this year who are comparable if not better than Chandler.

Chandler: nice role player
Joe Johnson: all-star

Olbrannon
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5/10/2010  8:29 PM
Pharzeone wrote:
misterearl wrote:After people at Philips Arena booed Johnson and the team for their lackluster effort in the 105-75 defeat, Johnson told reporters, he "could care less if [fans] showed up or not.”

After Sunday's practice, Johnson explained his frustration, that the level of displeasure in the seats was disconcerting.

“I don’t think we’ve heard the boos like that in the five years since I’ve been here,” he said. “When I first got here, man, there were probably like 100 people out there in those seats. I won’t say everybody is a die-hard, but they’ve shown us a lot of support over the years. In the heat of the battle you tend to say a lot of things. But it was tough, man. I was a little [ticked] off, but I am over it now.”

No to Joe

That's a huge exaggeration on his part. I guess I was one of the "100" but the crowds were of course smaller. That had to do more with the Spirit and Atlanta fans period than anything Joe did or didn't do. When the lowly Knicks came to Atlanta that arena was still able to fill out. And in his first year there were plenty of boo birds.

Is it? let's compare the numbers-
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/wilson_chandler/index.html
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/joe_johnson/index.html

Johnson averaged better scoring totals by 6 PPG TO vs Assists quite similar. Rebounds etc even efficiency don't seem to show this superiority you claim he has.
And at 22 vs Johnson's 29 and salary vs salary I say Wilson is far the better bargain. Add to that he's an inch taller and 20 lbs heavier and can man the PF in a pinch.

Now add to that Chandler has only 2 years in the league yet. Seems to me you must be a former GM's fan 'cause from what I've heard that would be one of his kind of moves.

Besides which if he can't handle the crowd in Atlanta...he'd be a broken man in a year playing in NY

Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
Olbrannon
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5/10/2010  8:30 PM
Bah...reply was for later post by bitty
Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
Pharzeone
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5/10/2010  8:34 PM
bitty41 wrote:
Pharzeone wrote:To me it's not about Joe Johnson's playoff performance but his time in Atlanta as a whole. This is about Joe Johnson and what he has done since his departure from Phoenix. I guess what the article that the OP tries to put some of the blame on Woodson's shoulders but I don't buy it. Joe Johnson has been a bad volume shooter meaning that he is going to get his no matter what. In and outside the flow of the game. If that means holding the ball for 12 secs to decide whether he wants to take his guy off the dribble or pull up for a shot. I seen games where he jacks up shots while Williams has his hands extended or Horford has to reposition himself in and out of the lane. He gets pissed when Josh blows him off because hey Josh knows the deal. 22 points on 42% shooting, playing 39 minutes a game while only dishing out 4 assists. If Chandler or Harrington for that matter put up those stats we would be blasting worse than we currently are.

On the playoffs that people like to throw around. When will be acknowledge that the Hawks making the playoffs, has more to do with the maturity of Smith and Horford. When Joe was given the sole keys to team. The Hawks were in the lottery. I remember the Atlanta sport talk shows when people who constantly called up to bitch about Joe and this isn't the player they thought they were getting. As the the team pulled back from the next year, low and behold they had to fight for the last spot in the east but it was more of a team effort. And now this year in the playoffs where they say ok Joe you run the show, he has been to look even less than worthy of his current contract and making Carter look like a player reborn and Jennings look like an all-star. Joe is still getting his bad shots but they have been magnified in these two series.

Do I think Joe Johnson is a 1st team all NBA players absolutely not but do I think he's an all-star caliber player. Do I think he would be more suited in the role of a 2nd, 3rd option player yes. But does any of this negate the success he has had and remember he was solid contributor to that Phoenix team a team that was vastly more talented than Atlanta. But the real problem is the NBA they've created a system where there is no distinction btw all-star caliber vs MVP caliber players because both sets are getting paid similar salaries and they both are being handed over the reigns of their organizations. We've seen this time and time again in the NBA. Now for some reason fans bought into this falsehood that Joe Johnson was suppose to be an MVP type player and that reality has set-in they want tear him down. The organization has laid it his feet to put up big numbers so what he does he do? He shoots regardless if it's a good shot or a bad shot because guess what he's their so-called franchise player. Atlanta committed to him and now they are just rolling with the punches.

Joe Johnson is meeting expectation just like the Hawks are meeting expectations. I never thought he was better than All-Star caliber player just like I never thought the Hawks were better than a 2nd round exit. Whereas I don't think Chandler has shown himself to be no better than a solid 3rd, 4th option and he's totally unproven and thus far hasn't had good success. Is Chandler better than Ariza, AI, Tayshun Prince, Luol Deng, Jeff Green, Gerald Wallace, John Salmons, I just named 7 guys who weren't even all-stars this year who are comparable if not better than Chandler.

Chandler: nice role player
Joe Johnson: all-star

Yeah, that's where I disagree about Joe. I don't think he is an all-star in the same sense I don't think Harrington or Crawford are all-stars. Not sure why he didn't develop into that type of player in Atlanta but I agree the Hawks put him that position so they have one more game to roll with their punches. I just don't want the Knicks to be deceived but it's safe to say that Joe is getting more exposed than even I anticipated he would be.

I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
bitty41
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5/10/2010  8:41 PM
Olbrannon,

I never said I wanted Johnson playing in NY. Johnson averages 2 more assists than Chandler so I don't really know how you say those stats are that comparable. Rebounding Chandler only averages 1 more rebound and that is a category he should be dominating because while Johnson never plays below Chandler spends a great deal of time on the block either defending or on offense.

Chandler's been in the league for 3 years and he's had ample of opportunity to break-out some guys have it and others don't. Now before you give the usual Knick fan spiel about he' so young and developing look around you guys younger than him are putting up better numbers and breaking out. Now I'm not talking about the Lebron James of the world but just young players who seized an opportunity to really make a name for themselves. Outside of Knick fans the average NBA fan barely knows who this guy is.

bitty41
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5/10/2010  8:46 PM
Pharzeone wrote:
bitty41 wrote:
Pharzeone wrote:To me it's not about Joe Johnson's playoff performance but his time in Atlanta as a whole. This is about Joe Johnson and what he has done since his departure from Phoenix. I guess what the article that the OP tries to put some of the blame on Woodson's shoulders but I don't buy it. Joe Johnson has been a bad volume shooter meaning that he is going to get his no matter what. In and outside the flow of the game. If that means holding the ball for 12 secs to decide whether he wants to take his guy off the dribble or pull up for a shot. I seen games where he jacks up shots while Williams has his hands extended or Horford has to reposition himself in and out of the lane. He gets pissed when Josh blows him off because hey Josh knows the deal. 22 points on 42% shooting, playing 39 minutes a game while only dishing out 4 assists. If Chandler or Harrington for that matter put up those stats we would be blasting worse than we currently are.

On the playoffs that people like to throw around. When will be acknowledge that the Hawks making the playoffs, has more to do with the maturity of Smith and Horford. When Joe was given the sole keys to team. The Hawks were in the lottery. I remember the Atlanta sport talk shows when people who constantly called up to bitch about Joe and this isn't the player they thought they were getting. As the the team pulled back from the next year, low and behold they had to fight for the last spot in the east but it was more of a team effort. And now this year in the playoffs where they say ok Joe you run the show, he has been to look even less than worthy of his current contract and making Carter look like a player reborn and Jennings look like an all-star. Joe is still getting his bad shots but they have been magnified in these two series.

Do I think Joe Johnson is a 1st team all NBA players absolutely not but do I think he's an all-star caliber player. Do I think he would be more suited in the role of a 2nd, 3rd option player yes. But does any of this negate the success he has had and remember he was solid contributor to that Phoenix team a team that was vastly more talented than Atlanta. But the real problem is the NBA they've created a system where there is no distinction btw all-star caliber vs MVP caliber players because both sets are getting paid similar salaries and they both are being handed over the reigns of their organizations. We've seen this time and time again in the NBA. Now for some reason fans bought into this falsehood that Joe Johnson was suppose to be an MVP type player and that reality has set-in they want tear him down. The organization has laid it his feet to put up big numbers so what he does he do? He shoots regardless if it's a good shot or a bad shot because guess what he's their so-called franchise player. Atlanta committed to him and now they are just rolling with the punches.

Joe Johnson is meeting expectation just like the Hawks are meeting expectations. I never thought he was better than All-Star caliber player just like I never thought the Hawks were better than a 2nd round exit. Whereas I don't think Chandler has shown himself to be no better than a solid 3rd, 4th option and he's totally unproven and thus far hasn't had good success. Is Chandler better than Ariza, AI, Tayshun Prince, Luol Deng, Jeff Green, Gerald Wallace, John Salmons, I just named 7 guys who weren't even all-stars this year who are comparable if not better than Chandler.

Chandler: nice role player
Joe Johnson: all-star

Yeah, that's where I disagree about Joe. I don't think he is an all-star in the same sense I don't think Harrington or Crawford are all-stars. Not sure why he didn't develop into that type of player in Atlanta but I agree the Hawks put him that position so they have one more game to roll with their punches. I just don't want the Knicks to be deceived but it's safe to say that Joe is getting more exposed than even I anticipated he would be.

Harrington and Crawford don't and didn't get respect in New York for one major reason. Their team sucked so let's not pretend it was anything else. That's why David Lee has to be named as alternate instead of just outright. Joe Johnson's Hawks as much as they are getting their butts kicked were still a very good regular season team. Whereas the Knicks couldn't even make the playoffs over an atrocious Bulls team.

Joe Johnson like the 99.9% of the NBA players need another guy/s in front of them they cannot carry teams on their own. Once GMs start getting this we'll see someone else other than the Lakers or Celtics win a Championship.

Olbrannon
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5/10/2010  9:13 PM
bitty41 wrote:Olbrannon,

I never said I wanted Johnson playing in NY. Johnson averages 2 more assists than Chandler so I don't really know how you say those stats are that comparable. Rebounding Chandler only averages 1 more rebound and that is a category he should be dominating because while Johnson never plays below Chandler spends a great deal of time on the block either defending or on offense.

Chandler's been in the league for 3 years and he's had ample of opportunity to break-out some guys have it and others don't. Now before you give the usual Knick fan spiel about he' so young and developing look around you guys younger than him are putting up better numbers and breaking out. Now I'm not talking about the Lebron James of the world but just young players who seized an opportunity to really make a name for themselves. Outside of Knick fans the average NBA fan barely knows who this guy is.

I think you are discounting that Chandler has to compete for reb's with DLee in a contract year. Besides here's J Johnson's first 3 years in the league

01-02 PHX 29 27 31.5 0.420 0.333 0.778 1.2 2.9 4.1 3.6 0.9 0.4 1.48 1.90 9.6
01-02 BOS 48 33 20.9 0.439 0.273 0.769 0.8 2.1 2.9 1.5 0.7 0.2 0.58 1.23 6.3
02-03 PHX 82 34 27.5 0.397 0.366 0.774 0.7 2.5 3.2 2.6 0.8 0.2 1.32 1.74 9.8
03-04 PHX 82 77 40.6 0.430 0.305 0.750 1.0 3.7 4.7 4.4 1.1 0.3 2.43 2.16 16.7

Compared to Wilson's

07-08 NYK 35 16 19.6 0.438 0.300 0.630 1.1 2.5 3.6 0.9 0.4 0.5 0.77 2.37 7.3
08-09 NYK 82 70 33.4 0.432 0.328 0.795 1.1 4.3 5.4 2.1 0.9 0.9 1.70 3.05 14.4
09-10 NYK 65 64 35.7 0.479 0.267 0.806 1.4 3.9 5.4 2.1 0.7 0.8 1.66 2.83 15.3

Let's compare apples and apples then ;)

Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
knicks1248
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5/10/2010  10:10 PM
Didn't we sweep the hawks, I think orlando is the better team by far, there balance and have solid depth, and mike wood doesn't have a clue.

Joe is 2nd option for 10/11 mill tops, The hawks have a team were almost every player is equally talented, there all 2nd optn..Why are we looking joe's numbers, and not the hawks game plan

ES
djsunyc
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5/10/2010  10:32 PM
if a team makes the 2nd round, but gets blown out in each game, did they really make the 2nd round?
markvmc
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5/10/2010  10:40 PM
Johnson's adjusted +/- for the year is -5.15.

For comparison's sake, Dirk's is +7.24.

James's is +18.52.

Kobe's is 9.15.

I think I'll add my voice to the 'no to JJ' camp.

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=LAL

misterearl
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5/10/2010  10:50 PM
No To Joe

obrannon - great work on the stats

Wilson Chandler would never shrink in front of a home crowd the way Johnson did this evening. Johnson was not a factor. Period. End of story

Chandler is more versatile, a better rebounder, can defend three positions and MUCH more fierce in traffic. When was the last time Johnson dunked in someones grille?

once a knick always a knick
Childs2Dudley
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5/10/2010  11:09 PM
misterearl wrote:No To Joe

obrannon - great work on the stats

Wilson Chandler would never shrink in front of a home crowd the way Johnson did this evening. Johnson was not a factor. Period. End of story

Chandler is more versatile, a better rebounder, can defend three positions and MUCH more fierce in traffic. When was the last time Johnson dunked in someones grille?

Yes, he would. And he has.

Please stop peddling this stuff, dude. You really sit here and believe Wilson Chandler is better than Joe Johnson? Joe Johnson is not a max guy but he's not worse than Chandler. That's the end of it.

"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
Hawks playoff struggles not Joe Johnson's fault? Apparently Mike Woodsons...

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