loweyecue wrote:

arkrud wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Nalod wrote:Sebby,

When I say "What about" I am not taking ownership. These are talking points, so painting me as you do is not correct.

MY talking points are from trying to understnd not from the right wing hate who support the law for its obvoius but form a practical point.

Do you recognize the problems illegals present on the state of Arizona?

Dude, chill and discuss. If your just going to paint ever single thing said and run with it then your not digesting. Don't worry about me, just give me your points.

Im not talking social benefits as spewed by the tea Party. They lack compassion at any level.

If you must know, Im a borderline socialist but our debt mounts. I don't mind Reaganomic spending to stimulate but when the harvest comes around we must pay it down.

I don't agree that Illegals have many rights as citizans. As humans they should be treated properly. We are talking about profiling not descrimination. We are talking about potentially offending some legals as the downside? Is that whats working you up?

Are Border Guards not being picked off? Are there not problems with the influx of many illegals regarding drug trafficing, crime, kidnapping and murder?

Just like yourself a lot of Americans have been bamboozled by loud mouthed racists who want to pin the blame of our countries ills on a rotating assortment of colored people. Now its the Mexicans turn. The Mexican people that do support this Nazi-like bill will sing a different tune one they get pulled over 39 times in one month just because their license plate was "crooked."

Are you speaking for all now?

OK so "tone" is not always easy to read on forum posts. But with all due respect I think Seb made excellent and valid points and you made some too.

Now about drug trafficking yes it's a problem but are the Mexican's the only people to blame for it? If generalization is wrong shouldn't it be wrong at all levels?

Also the supposition that people are "let go" after they are stopped by cops if there is nothing obviously wrong with their papers etc is a HUGE reach. I don't have the time to dig it up but there are plenty of of reports all over the place where police have racially profiled innocent people to the point of subjecting them to the indignity and humiliation of strip searches etc. So that's why its a big freakin deal.

It's a big freaking deal because people don't know their rights and how to deal with police. Also in most cases whoever stopped by cops has some problems so he will keep low profile regardless.
If you get stopped and abused - you can get pretty big compensation from the government. That’s why in most cases (unless cops are idiots) they will never do anything with people who have papers in order and acting without fear.
Yep it is some hassle to carry ID with you and act like a decent man not as a donkey.

Wow, so its OK for cops to abuse people who don't know their rights? Lots of people are not comfortable dealing with the police and will choose the path of least resistance. What you are saying is people who don't stand up for their right get abused and its their fault????? Is that the reason we have cops? So they can abuse people who don't stand up for their rights? And speaking of donkeys,....nah I am not going to go there.

Democracy is responsibility. There is no free lunch and NOBODY will stand for you but yourself.
If you want to help people thats great. And it is starting with explaining to everybody that they have rights to stand up against cops and any other burocrats.
The fight for human right is won in people heads not on the streets.
And speaking of donkeys. This is responsibility of any good persone to make man from dunkeys. At least as much as possible.

arkrud wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

arkrud wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Nalod wrote:Sebby,

When I say "What about" I am not taking ownership. These are talking points, so painting me as you do is not correct.

MY talking points are from trying to understnd not from the right wing hate who support the law for its obvoius but form a practical point.

Do you recognize the problems illegals present on the state of Arizona?

Dude, chill and discuss. If your just going to paint ever single thing said and run with it then your not digesting. Don't worry about me, just give me your points.

Im not talking social benefits as spewed by the tea Party. They lack compassion at any level.

If you must know, Im a borderline socialist but our debt mounts. I don't mind Reaganomic spending to stimulate but when the harvest comes around we must pay it down.

I don't agree that Illegals have many rights as citizans. As humans they should be treated properly. We are talking about profiling not descrimination. We are talking about potentially offending some legals as the downside? Is that whats working you up?

Are Border Guards not being picked off? Are there not problems with the influx of many illegals regarding drug trafficing, crime, kidnapping and murder?

Just like yourself a lot of Americans have been bamboozled by loud mouthed racists who want to pin the blame of our countries ills on a rotating assortment of colored people. Now its the Mexicans turn. The Mexican people that do support this Nazi-like bill will sing a different tune one they get pulled over 39 times in one month just because their license plate was "crooked."

Are you speaking for all now?

OK so "tone" is not always easy to read on forum posts. But with all due respect I think Seb made excellent and valid points and you made some too.

Now about drug trafficking yes it's a problem but are the Mexican's the only people to blame for it? If generalization is wrong shouldn't it be wrong at all levels?

Also the supposition that people are "let go" after they are stopped by cops if there is nothing obviously wrong with their papers etc is a HUGE reach. I don't have the time to dig it up but there are plenty of of reports all over the place where police have racially profiled innocent people to the point of subjecting them to the indignity and humiliation of strip searches etc. So that's why its a big freakin deal.

It's a big freaking deal because people don't know their rights and how to deal with police. Also in most cases whoever stopped by cops has some problems so he will keep low profile regardless.
If you get stopped and abused - you can get pretty big compensation from the government. That’s why in most cases (unless cops are idiots) they will never do anything with people who have papers in order and acting without fear.
Yep it is some hassle to carry ID with you and act like a decent man not as a donkey.

Wow, so its OK for cops to abuse people who don't know their rights? Lots of people are not comfortable dealing with the police and will choose the path of least resistance. What you are saying is people who don't stand up for their right get abused and its their fault????? Is that the reason we have cops? So they can abuse people who don't stand up for their rights? And speaking of donkeys,....nah I am not going to go there.

Democracy is responsibility. There is no free lunch and NOBODY will stand for you but yourself.
If you want to help people thats great. And it is starting with explaining to everybody that they have rights to stand up against cops and any other burocrats.
The fight for human right is won in people heads not on the streets.
And speaking of donkeys. This is responsibility of any good persone to make man from dunkeys. At least as much as possible.

This is so typical of everything that's wrong with society in general these days. Make some high sounding speech full of traditional sound bytes that doesn't mean jack s***, and focus the discussion away from the real issues which is dirty cops that abuse their powers to racially profile and abuse innocent hardworking citizens. The argument here in case you have forgotten by now is we now made it legal for these cops to abuse even more people. So we essentially TOOK AWAY whatever right's they had. GET IT???

arkrud wrote:If you get stopped and abused - you can get pretty big compensation from the government. That’s why in most cases (unless cops are idiots) they will never do anything with people who have papers in order and acting without fear.

lmao... what country you living in?

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0512/arizona-governor-signs-bill-banning-ethnic-studies/