TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:the Celtics got KG & Ray Allen by trading young talent & picks they amassed in the draft... they got Pierce through the draft as well... they utilized the draft to amass assets & built that team from the ground up that way... they didn't dump picks to unload cap space so they could try & sign 2 max FA's that summer like we're trying to do.

So it's not possible for DW to use a TD, Chan or even Gallo to do the same kind of thing? There's so much room under the cap that we can take back more than we give and in certain cases like say a deal for CP3 it would make sense. We can give them some talent and cap relief. No we can't give a pick, but don't underestimate the freedom a team gains from cap relief. They could go into the FA market themselves to improve their team. I'm not saying this is what DW will do, but it's a real option.

Also in the trades who made out better the TWolves or the Celts. That is the thing that needs to be the focus. We used a young talent and pick to get the cap space to add better talent. We want to be the Celts. We're the buyers in this summer market. We have players that we got thru the draft as part of our core. Now we want to add our Shaq or KG to make this team a winner. We might already have our Pierce in Gallo, but he hasn't been playing long enough to know for sure yet. Still Gallo may just get there. I like the early signs.

do u remember the package of assets the Celtics gave away to bring KG & Ray Allen to Boston? it equated to a lot more than a package of Chan, TD & Gallo, i'll tell u that much... what kind of talent do u think can realistically get with the package of assets we have to offer in a sign & trade? just curious.

if the goal is to be the Celtics, then DW took the wrong path to try & emulate what they did... i like what i see in Gallo too but if the plan is to hold onto him & still bring in key pieces to form a championship nucleus, you're pretty much taking the top asset you have to offer in any trades off the table... unless u think Wilson Chandler & TD are a good enough package to land us a superstar talent in a trade.

I don't think we are trying to be the Celts. Thing is , when you do a S+T for a star like KG, Shaq(to Miami) or dare I even mention Marbury you may win a title sometimes that way. But the thing is you give up so much that you don't have a chance to keep it up for a number of reasons. Like Martin said on a diff thread, if Lebron signs here he'd me much better off just signing with us straight up. Much better chance to build a championship team that is sustainable for a number of years. And if "Lebron will do whats best for Lebron" then he would just sign with us without losing major parts of his future team in the process. This is why our unconventional way to build a championship is, at least in theory, better than any other this coming summer.

ramtour420 wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:the Celtics got KG & Ray Allen by trading young talent & picks they amassed in the draft... they got Pierce through the draft as well... they utilized the draft to amass assets & built that team from the ground up that way... they didn't dump picks to unload cap space so they could try & sign 2 max FA's that summer like we're trying to do.

So it's not possible for DW to use a TD, Chan or even Gallo to do the same kind of thing? There's so much room under the cap that we can take back more than we give and in certain cases like say a deal for CP3 it would make sense. We can give them some talent and cap relief. No we can't give a pick, but don't underestimate the freedom a team gains from cap relief. They could go into the FA market themselves to improve their team. I'm not saying this is what DW will do, but it's a real option.

Also in the trades who made out better the TWolves or the Celts. That is the thing that needs to be the focus. We used a young talent and pick to get the cap space to add better talent. We want to be the Celts. We're the buyers in this summer market. We have players that we got thru the draft as part of our core. Now we want to add our Shaq or KG to make this team a winner. We might already have our Pierce in Gallo, but he hasn't been playing long enough to know for sure yet. Still Gallo may just get there. I like the early signs.

do u remember the package of assets the Celtics gave away to bring KG & Ray Allen to Boston? it equated to a lot more than a package of Chan, TD & Gallo, i'll tell u that much... what kind of talent do u think can realistically get with the package of assets we have to offer in a sign & trade? just curious.

if the goal is to be the Celtics, then DW took the wrong path to try & emulate what they did... i like what i see in Gallo too but if the plan is to hold onto him & still bring in key pieces to form a championship nucleus, you're pretty much taking the top asset you have to offer in any trades off the table... unless u think Wilson Chandler & TD are a good enough package to land us a superstar talent in a trade.

I don't think we are trying to be the Celts. Thing is , when you do a S+T for a star like KG, Shaq(to Miami) or dare I even mention Marbury you may win a title sometimes that way. But the thing is you give up so much that you don't have a chance to keep it up for a number of reasons. Like Martin said on a diff thread, if Lebron signs here he'd me much better off just signing with us straight up. Much better chance to build a championship team that is sustainable for a number of years. And if "Lebron will do whats best for Lebron" then he would just sign with us without losing major parts of his future team in the process. This is why our unconventional way to build a championship is, at least in theory, better than any other this coming summer.

thats what makes this so interesting... so many diff ways this can go. both good and bad.

does lbj leave flat out for ny for bball reasons, or cuz of off court $$$ opportunities/luvz ny/etc? can the "baby" knicks continue to improve? lots to be answered.

ramtour420 wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:the Celtics got KG & Ray Allen by trading young talent & picks they amassed in the draft... they got Pierce through the draft as well... they utilized the draft to amass assets & built that team from the ground up that way... they didn't dump picks to unload cap space so they could try & sign 2 max FA's that summer like we're trying to do.

So it's not possible for DW to use a TD, Chan or even Gallo to do the same kind of thing? There's so much room under the cap that we can take back more than we give and in certain cases like say a deal for CP3 it would make sense. We can give them some talent and cap relief. No we can't give a pick, but don't underestimate the freedom a team gains from cap relief. They could go into the FA market themselves to improve their team. I'm not saying this is what DW will do, but it's a real option.

Also in the trades who made out better the TWolves or the Celts. That is the thing that needs to be the focus. We used a young talent and pick to get the cap space to add better talent. We want to be the Celts. We're the buyers in this summer market. We have players that we got thru the draft as part of our core. Now we want to add our Shaq or KG to make this team a winner. We might already have our Pierce in Gallo, but he hasn't been playing long enough to know for sure yet. Still Gallo may just get there. I like the early signs.

do u remember the package of assets the Celtics gave away to bring KG & Ray Allen to Boston? it equated to a lot more than a package of Chan, TD & Gallo, i'll tell u that much... what kind of talent do u think can realistically get with the package of assets we have to offer in a sign & trade? just curious.

if the goal is to be the Celtics, then DW took the wrong path to try & emulate what they did... i like what i see in Gallo too but if the plan is to hold onto him & still bring in key pieces to form a championship nucleus, you're pretty much taking the top asset you have to offer in any trades off the table... unless u think Wilson Chandler & TD are a good enough package to land us a superstar talent in a trade.

I don't think we are trying to be the Celts. Thing is , when you do a S+T for a star like KG, Shaq(to Miami) or dare I even mention Marbury you may win a title sometimes that way. But the thing is you give up so much that you don't have a chance to keep it up for a number of reasons. Like Martin said on a diff thread, if Lebron signs here he'd me much better off just signing with us straight up. Much better chance to build a championship team that is sustainable for a number of years. And if "Lebron will do whats best for Lebron" then he would just sign with us without losing major parts of his future team in the process. This is why our unconventional way to build a championship is, at least in theory, better than any other this coming summer.

i don't think we're trying to be the Celts either (nixluva suggested that)... i think DW is trying to do something that's never been done before... convince the top 2 free agents to sign w/the Knicks this summer outright & forego the extra 6th year & higher incremental increases in annual max salary in order to have a chance to revive a dead franchise in the biggest market in sports... if things work out he will be annointed as the savior... if we end up signing more starphuch players to overpaid albatross contracts in a desperate attempt to get back into the playoffs, he will be compared directly to the previous 2 regimes with similar end results.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:If i'm Bosh I take that chance on the 5 yr verses the 6yr in Toronto, cuz I think we can offer him the promise of playing with another top talent like Lebron, Wade or JJ3. He has played with anyone on that level and he won't in Toronto. He'll get that 6th year money back when we win a title and the Knicks resign these guys to lock them up for the duration.

if i'm bosh i take the 6th year from TOR & try & work out a sign & trade to a team i think i can win with... we'll see how things play out this summer.

hasnt bosh said he doesnt want to be second fiddle recently? lbj+wade i can see working chemistry wise more so then lbj+bosh...

=========================================

Celtics dump:

Wally Szczerbiak == FINISHED
Delonte West == GARBAGE
rights to Jeff Green == VERY GOOD
2008 second round pick (#46-Trent Plaisted) == TRASH

Celtics receive:

Ray Allen == VERY GOOD
Glen Davis == SOLID

======

Celtics dump:

Al Jefferson == GOOD
Gerald Green == TRASH
Theo Ratliff == FINISHED
Ryan Gomes = TRASH
Sebastian Telfair = TRASH
2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (2009#6-Jonny Flynn) = OKAY
conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington) = TRASH

Celtics receive:

Kevin Garnett

*********************************************************

These assets are that much more amazing than what we could offer?

So, Douglas, Gallo, Chandler, Walker, Giddens, etc.... is so much worse than Flynn, Green, Al J?

Really?

LMFAO. No.

Cosmic wrote:Let us look back at what the Celtics did:

=========================================

Celtics dump:

Wally Szczerbiak == FINISHED
Delonte West == GARBAGE
rights to Jeff Green == VERY GOOD
2008 second round pick (#46-Trent Plaisted) == TRASH

Celtics receive:

Ray Allen == VERY GOOD
Glen Davis == SOLID

======

Celtics dump:

Al Jefferson == GOOD
Gerald Green == TRASH
Theo Ratliff == FINISHED
Ryan Gomes = TRASH
Sebastian Telfair = TRASH
2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (2009#6-Jonny Flynn) = OKAY
conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington) = TRASH

Celtics receive:

Kevin Garnett

*********************************************************

These assets are that much more amazing than what we could offer?

So, Douglas, Gallo, Chandler, Walker, Giddens, etc.... is so much worse than Flynn, Green, Al J?

Really?

LMFAO. No.

LMFAO is right... u'r equating Toney Douglas, Bill Walker & JR Giddens as valuable assets but discount the value of guys like Johnny Flynn & Wayne Ellington? dude, Al Jefferson by himself is worth more than 90% of the assets we have to offer, believe it... & at the time of the trade Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes & Sebastian Telfair were not considered trash... Gomes had put up 12 & 6 after his 2nd year in the league, that's not what you call trash... & both Green & Telfair were only 22 years old & former lottery picks, the book hadn't been completely shut on either of them yet... you speak as if the Celtics just made those trades yesterday.

& Glen Davis & Delonte West are good role players for championship calibre squads & you call them trash... that's a little much, don't u think? if those guys are trash what do u call our role players? & what is the "etc" after Douglas, Gallo, Chandler, Walker, Giddens that you're referring to? Eddy Curry's expiring? lol. come on. seriously. we're not landing no Kevin Durant or CP3 this summer w/our awesome collection of assets, it's just not gonna happen. don't expect a repeat of what the Celtics were able to pull off. we don't have the ammo to make it happen. our best shot at this point is attracting free agents this summer.

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:Let us look back at what the Celtics did:

=========================================

Celtics dump:

Wally Szczerbiak == FINISHED
Delonte West == GARBAGE
rights to Jeff Green == VERY GOOD
2008 second round pick (#46-Trent Plaisted) == TRASH

Celtics receive:

Ray Allen == VERY GOOD
Glen Davis == SOLID

======

Celtics dump:

Al Jefferson == GOOD
Gerald Green == TRASH
Theo Ratliff == FINISHED
Ryan Gomes = TRASH
Sebastian Telfair = TRASH
2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (2009#6-Jonny Flynn) = OKAY
conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington) = TRASH

Celtics receive:

Kevin Garnett

*********************************************************

These assets are that much more amazing than what we could offer?

So, Douglas, Gallo, Chandler, Walker, Giddens, etc.... is so much worse than Flynn, Green, Al J?

Really?

LMFAO. No.

LMFAO is right... u'r equating Toney Douglas, Bill Walker & JR Giddens as valuable assets but discount the value of guys like Johnny Flynn & Wayne Ellington? dude, Al Jefferson by himself is worth more than 90% of the assets we have to offer, believe it... & at the time of the trade Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes & Sebastian Telfair were not considered trash... Gomes had put up 12 & 6 after his 2nd year in the league, that's not what you call trash... & both Green & Telfair were only 22 years old & former lottery picks, the book hadn't been completely shut on either of them yet... you speak as if the Celtics just made those trades yesterday.

& Glen Davis & Delonte West are good role players for championship calibre squads & you call them trash... that's a little much, don't u think? if those guys are trash what do u call our role players? & what is the "etc" after Douglas, Gallo, Chandler, Walker, Giddens that you're referring to? Eddy Curry's expiring? lol. come on. seriously. we're not landing no Kevin Durant or CP3 this summer w/our awesome collection of assets, it's just not gonna happen. don't expect a repeat of what the Celtics were able to pull off. we don't have the ammo to make it happen. our best shot at this point is attracting free agents this summer.

David Lee, Gallinari, Chandler... or are we tossing them out?

FYI: The Celtics GOT GLEN DAVIS in trade! He wasn't a Celtic asset going OUTBOUND! He was GIVEN to them. I also called him solid, so I guess you didn't read that.

West, Telfair, Gomes, Ellignton ARE trash and WERE trash at the time. Come'on man.

Also, I'm not talking about Durant or CP3 or any other player I'm talking in terms of assets we could use in trade.

The Celtics had nothing better to give on those days than we have today to pull off similar trades.

I don't really know why you've been so insistent on downplaying what we have to offer. I just don't get it. We have plenty to offer. Whether or not a team wants to bite is irrelevant. You constantly make the case we have nothing compared to what the Celtics had. Well, I think you're wrong.

knicks1248 wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:Let us look back at what the Celtics did:

=========================================

Celtics dump:

Wally Szczerbiak == FINISHED
Delonte West == GARBAGE
rights to Jeff Green == VERY GOOD
2008 second round pick (#46-Trent Plaisted) == TRASH

Celtics receive:

Ray Allen == VERY GOOD
Glen Davis == SOLID

======

Celtics dump:

Al Jefferson == GOOD
Gerald Green == TRASH
Theo Ratliff == FINISHED
Ryan Gomes = TRASH
Sebastian Telfair = TRASH
2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (2009#6-Jonny Flynn) = OKAY
conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington) = TRASH

Celtics receive:

Kevin Garnett

*********************************************************

These assets are that much more amazing than what we could offer?

So, Douglas, Gallo, Chandler, Walker, Giddens, etc.... is so much worse than Flynn, Green, Al J?

Really?

LMFAO. No.

LMFAO is right... u'r equating Toney Douglas, Bill Walker & JR Giddens as valuable assets but discount the value of guys like Johnny Flynn & Wayne Ellington? dude, Al Jefferson by himself is worth more than 90% of the assets we have to offer, believe it... & at the time of the trade Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes & Sebastian Telfair were not considered trash... Gomes had put up 12 & 6 after his 2nd year in the league, that's not what you call trash... & both Green & Telfair were only 22 years old & former lottery picks, the book hadn't been completely shut on either of them yet... you speak as if the Celtics just made those trades yesterday.

& Glen Davis & Delonte West are good role players for championship calibre squads & you call them trash... that's a little much, don't u think? if those guys are trash what do u call our role players? & what is the "etc" after Douglas, Gallo, Chandler, Walker, Giddens that you're referring to? Eddy Curry's expiring? lol. come on. seriously. we're not landing no Kevin Durant or CP3 this summer w/our awesome collection of assets, it's just not gonna happen. don't expect a repeat of what the Celtics were able to pull off. we don't have the ammo to make it happen. our best shot at this point is attracting free agents this summer.

David Lee, Gallinari, Chandler... or are we tossing them out?

FYI: The Celtics GOT GLEN DAVIS in trade! He wasn't a Celtic asset going OUTBOUND! He was GIVEN to them. I also called him solid, so I guess you didn't read that.

West, Telfair, Gomes, Ellignton ARE trash and WERE trash at the time. Come'on man.

Also, I'm not talking about Durant or CP3 or any other player I'm talking in terms of assets we could use in trade.

The Celtics had nothing better to give on those days than we have today to pull off similar trades.

I don't really know why you've been so insistent on downplaying what we have to offer. I just don't get it. We have plenty to offer. Whether or not a team wants to bite is irrelevant. You constantly make the case we have nothing compared to what the Celtics had. Well, I think you're wrong.

I agree, he's pretty much saying gallo and chandler are trash, or not worth much. Yet it becomes contradictive when you suggest that there the knicks future.

With there age and potential those guy's should be considered as major assets

i dont think thats what he is saying (what we have is trash). its more that we have only a few guys left, and less draft picks to play with compared to what bos had to work with. if we unload td/wc/dg (or do a lee s&t) for elite talent, i think no one will be mad. if we do it for lower tiered guys, the team will be kinda behind the 8ball. we have assets, most we would not want to unload and may have to for s&t's to work.

TMS wrote:if DW thinks we will be getting better talent than any top 5 pick would get us, he must have a guarantee that Lebron or Wade are coming here... or he could be talking nonsense... since GM's can never be taken at their word, i'm going to assume the latter... i don't think i need to run through a list of great players that were taken past the #5 overall pick that are playing in the NBA right now.

You are right TMS, agreed
150%

One of them great pick players at #5 was the Sonics 1987 pick of Scottie Pippen (hall of fame eligible elect 2010)
Same 6 ring Scottie Pippen whom was draft day traded by Sonics to BULLs.

Of course NewYork Knicks gave up the #5 pick in a deal to Seattle in 1986, same Knicks ill luck of today.
Knicks can't historically get anything right again until they win 3rd francise NBA Title.
Right we'll see that in our next lifetime, I hope I am wrong.