loweyecue wrote:I understand and share your frustration about the same 37 years, believe me I do. I just think its useless to deal in absolutes and engage in empty rhetoric the way some people seem to do here. Yes you as a fan have the right to question management, while others have the right to support them. All this discussion forum dramatics lead people to get too carried away in blaming the current management for the overall sense of frustration and ineptitude.

speaking for myself i've only been frustrated w/this team for the past 10 years... started following the team in the mid 80s & i was never really heavily emotionally invested in them until they reached the Finals in '94... after that i was never really severely down on the way this team was managed for another 6 years, even when we signed Allan Houston to that ridiculous extension... at least the team was still good back then... in the past 10 years tho, this team really took a nosedive off a cliff & they've become totally irrelevant... not 1 worthy franchise player to get excited over ever since & just a parade of starphuch player after starphuch player coming in & out the door to try & get fans into the building regardless of how crappy the team was... as sad as it sounds the most excited i was since 2000 was when we traded for Stephon Marbury & we all know how that turned out... after that it's guys like Jalen Rose, Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Zach Randolph, Tracy McGrady... just 1 starphuch after another... now we already hear fans saying that if we miss out on the bignames that they'll be happy with guys like Joe Johnson this summer... when will it end? in 2011 if we miss out on Melo are we going to be targetting guys like Chauncey Billups well after his prime at big money?

loweyecue wrote:I understand and share your frustration about the same 37 years, believe me I do. I just think its useless to deal in absolutes and engage in empty rhetoric the way some people seem to do here. Yes you as a fan have the right to question management, while others have the right to support them. All this discussion forum dramatics lead people to get too carried away in blaming the current management for the overall sense of frustration and ineptitude.

see the deal kam77 just posted... not all folks who see mistakes are based on those possible reasons. granted some of those are quite probably humor based . i for one hated most of what laymass (layden/it) did/brought in. good riddance. cant wait for curry to get the flip out.

i would very much like to see this team win a title, wasnt alive for the last one (err, either of them). if they do so with mike+donnie, how can anyone complain about it? if they land lbj/wade or my new fav target kd (or other elite talents), and DONT win right away, again who can complain?? the fear of the poor track record plays on me which is why i see what appear to be mistakes i mention it. the cast of characters has changed, yet the story has an eerily similarity to the horrors we have seen recently. hope things go far better.

loweyecue wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

loweyecue wrote:I understand and share your frustration about the same 37 years, believe me I do. I just think its useless to deal in absolutes and engage in empty rhetoric the way some people seem to do here. Yes you as a fan have the right to question management, while others have the right to support them. All this discussion forum dramatics lead people to get too carried away in blaming the current management for the overall sense of frustration and ineptitude.

see the deal kam77 just posted... not all folks who see mistakes are based on those possible reasons. granted some of those are quite probably humor based . i for one hated most of what laymass (layden/it) did/brought in. good riddance. cant wait for curry to get the flip out.

i would very much like to see this team win a title, wasnt alive for the last one (err, either of them). if they do so with mike+donnie, how can anyone complain about it? if they land lbj/wade or my new fav target kd (or other elite talents), and DONT win right away, again who can complain?? the fear of the poor track record plays on me which is why i see what appear to be mistakes i mention it. the cast of characters has changed, yet the story has an eerily similarity to the horrors we have seen recently. hope things go far better.

Yep, we have been the definition of a lame a$s team over the last decade or so, since JVG left. Having hired Lay(den) and (Tho)mass isn succession we deserved nothing different.

Would I be happy with Joe Johnson? No, but I would be happy with a balanced team that competes. Yeah winning a title is always the main objective but being lame as$ as we were we can't just chuck reality outside the window and continue our cycle of hiring and firing coaches and management and I hope we do see some hardware make its way back to NY soon. Doesn't everybody?

But, I still support DW's decisions (except one pick too many being given up). Decisions cannot be made KNOWING the outcome, you just do the best you can. Those who criticized the Nate trade and have then backtracked after Walker started playing well, are victims of the wrong type of thinking.

i think only a few want a clear out of FO/coaches. i dont see any major mgmt changes unless 1 or more folks leaves willingly/on their own. or dolan does something odd.

both layden and it had too long to make a mess so continuity can suck if the wrong folks are sticking around. not sure what to make of some of the things that have gone down. for nate, he probably should have been traded, and if no trade, then not resigned if he was gonna be this much of a prob for mike. you could say it worked out though, as you note (cant know outcomes), now way they could have planned the nate scenario like it turned out. lee should have been dealt with before as well, cuz i sure hope the end result of all this is we didnt act --> act later at higher cost. the tmac trade probably hasnt helped with perception of what the plan is. is it all-in (FO seems to say no it isnt), is it 2+ more years of adding parts, is it something off the radar currently... no need to debate those cuz im just trying to give a sense of what i question with moves made/not made and why its a concern for me.

Robinson > House + Giddens
Landry < Walker

TMS wrote:at this point u can't say Walker's a better player than Nate anyway, he hasn't been able to take over a game the way Nate's been able to do in the past... people are OK w/the deal because Nate's realistic market value was at a point where u couldn't reasonably expect to get back much better than a late 1st round pick, & Bill Walker seems to be about that... whether he grows into a better player than Nate is yet to be determined, but right now u can't say that he is.

anyway this entire thread is pretty skewed because he got traded to a team where everyone knew he'd have a limited role... he could just as easily been traded to a team that would have featured him more in the offense & be putting up 30 pt games like the ones he was last season for a good stretch... either way, we got back as good as we could have expected to get back in a trade for Nate this year.

Does Gibson get much burn on the Cavs? Playoff teams run tight lineups and Robinson collecting DNP's is not surprising since he is new to the team and is a defensive liability.

I doubt it effects his value since teams already know what he can do.

TMS wrote:

Those who criticized the Nate trade and have then backtracked after Walker started playing well, are victims of the wrong type of thinking.

it's always good to wait & see the results before judging anything, but it's better to backtrack on something & man up about being wrong than to keep insisting on pulling any excuse out of thin air to argue one's position no matter what.

if DW's moves work out & we land ourselves 2 franchise guys this summer, i would be the first to admit i was wrong to ever have doubted him... i wonder if the same could be said about those who have consistently defended DW & MDA against any criticism if things don't pan out the way they planned?

It's not what I was getting at. You can backtrack all you want, but the guy charged with making the decision has to make it with imperfect knowledge. Its just the way things work.

So decisions should not be judged based on the outcome in my opinion. This is hard to explain in few shot sentences and I'll make another clumsy attempt here, making some assumption, this is how you would compute the success of a decision.

Suppose we have a 40% chance that Lebron comes here and we all agree he will make us a contender with few good pieces. So the Lebron option has a 0.4*1 = 40% chance of success

Suppose there is a 30% chance that one of Hill or the other 8-10th position draft pick will turn into a franchise player. Suppose there is an 80% chance that putting the right pieces around them will produce a competing team. So the Keep JH option would have a 0.3*0.8 = 24% chance of success.

With LBJ success would come early, with JH/Pick it would come later. Of course the results would vary based on what assumptions you make about probability of something happening. Now that is what goes in to making a decision.

Once your decision is made there is no going back (for DW or the Knicks, you can still go back an man up ). But there are many different scenarios that can play out:

1. Lebron is a knick in 2010
2. Lebron is not a knick in 2010
3. JH becomes a superstar
4. Draft pick becomes a superstar
5. They both become scrubs
6. We get Bosh and CP3 and JH becomes a complete scrub in D-League

possibilities are enormous, as long as you make good assumptions you should take the higher percentage pay-off to make a decision. And then you need to live with your convictions. So a decision should be judged based on what information is available at the time of making that decision. So yes JH and pick may become superstars, but the available information right now does nut support that theory and it does not indicate they will be better than having Lebron. This is why I support DWs decision regardless of the outcome. A scenarios is very possible where we don't get anyone good and end up with JJ3 and some other schmuck but the decisions being made now should not be evaluated based on that or any other outcome. It should be evaluated based on what probabilities you think you can safely assume based on what we knew when the decision was made.

Childs2Dudley wrote:My fantasy update:

Coach Doc Rivers said Monday that Robinson is out of the team's rotation and will have to work his way back in, the Boston Globe reports.

Recommendation: Robinson did not play in Sunday's win over Cleveland and is pretty far off the fantasy radar at this point. He hasn't scored in double digits since March 12.

So, Nate sucks. I'm shocked.

So when Robinson bolts Boston this summer Doc Rivers will know why. LOL.

Robinson is going to get scooped up as a scorer off the bench not as a defensive stopper.

Funny thing is how bad eddie house SUCKS

i actually expected him to play much better... whenever he plays us at the Garden seemed like the dude would always be hitting killer shots... he's looked like a trainwreck ever since he got here.

Nate is not a presure player. Turn overs are his weakness, as well as defense and these are two things you need in crunch time.

Nate sabotaged Nate. He devalued himself. Its not like it was any secret he is "special". If we played him or did not sit him MDA could have lost the team. Can't let bone heads get away with crap. Makes the coach look bad. This year MDA does not need anymore help in that department!

Uptown wrote:Doc Rivers benches Nate the great? Doc is am idiot and needs to be fired immediately

man, Sheed is the one who should be getting DNP's. The guy is plays like he's a ball boy just on the floor to collect tossed towels or uni's. Talk about taking up space.