TMS wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:How far is Treviso from Rome? Donnie and Mike were probably too busy sightseeing. You MDA was checking out some his old spots. Four reps not to see the main guy you came to see sounds like a Road Trip.

Donnie should have just hired Jonathan Givony for the draft to get some accurate scouting reports.

Jordan Hill had another productive game that did a good job highlighting his strengths as a prospect, as well as his shortcomings. One on hand he displayed his excellent athleticism with a number of terrific finishes off pick and roll plays and in transition, running the floor extremely well and exploding off the ground in impressive fashion. He also knocked down a 20 foot jump-shot, the most range we’ve seen him show thus far, and converted on a decent looking turnaround jumper in the post.

On the other hand, Hill’s poor skill-level was very much evident in this game, as he looked very raw and mechanical trying to post up Cleveland State’s undersized defenders in the post, being stripped on one possession and also throwing up some ugly looking bricks. You would have expected him to dominate this game considering the huge advantage he holds in terms of size/athleticism against the 6-5 and 6-6 big men he went up against, but he really wasn’t able to consistently take advantage of his natural gifts. Defensively, Hill has potential but clearly is lacking in the fundamentals department, having a hard time rotating over effectively to guard the paint and picking up some questionable fouls. His basketball IQ is clearly nothing to write home about, and unless he’s able to significantly improve his skill-level over the next few years (not out of the question considering how far he’s come), he looks a lot more likely to develop into a solid energy guy/role-player rather than the game-changing presence you might expect from a potential top-5 pick. With that in mind, the fact that his rebounding rate has fallen significantly recently, going from over averaging over 12 boards per contest in the first 20 games, to just 9.3 rebounds in last 12 games, is not a great sign.

Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jordan-Hill-1222/

Just by reading that you wonder if Donnie drafted Hill just based on his individual workouts.

or maybe he drafted him based on the part that you chose not to bold? alot of what's in this report are things i noticed while watching him in games too, but u could clearly see this kid's potential & athletic ability... we had no idea what was going to happen w/David Lee's contract situation either... Donnie & MDA were obviously not high on any of the remaining PG prospects after Evans, Rubio, Flynn & Curry were taken off the board so they went w/their gut & took who they felt was the BPA... yes they missed out on Jennings... that's been established a while ago.

Hill was Junior not a Freshman so some of those criticisms should have been red flags. Seems to me Givony was just trying to be nice since he wrote 3 positive sentences followed by a huge paragraph on his faults.

When your only major positives are athleticism and a jumper combined with a low skill level and questionable IQ and you are drafted to be a center then there is a problem. Hill got beasted by quite a few lesser bigs last year too.

AnubisADL wrote:

TMS wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:How far is Treviso from Rome? Donnie and Mike were probably too busy sightseeing. You MDA was checking out some his old spots. Four reps not to see the main guy you came to see sounds like a Road Trip.

Donnie should have just hired Jonathan Givony for the draft to get some accurate scouting reports.

Jordan Hill had another productive game that did a good job highlighting his strengths as a prospect, as well as his shortcomings. One on hand he displayed his excellent athleticism with a number of terrific finishes off pick and roll plays and in transition, running the floor extremely well and exploding off the ground in impressive fashion. He also knocked down a 20 foot jump-shot, the most range we’ve seen him show thus far, and converted on a decent looking turnaround jumper in the post.

On the other hand, Hill’s poor skill-level was very much evident in this game, as he looked very raw and mechanical trying to post up Cleveland State’s undersized defenders in the post, being stripped on one possession and also throwing up some ugly looking bricks. You would have expected him to dominate this game considering the huge advantage he holds in terms of size/athleticism against the 6-5 and 6-6 big men he went up against, but he really wasn’t able to consistently take advantage of his natural gifts. Defensively, Hill has potential but clearly is lacking in the fundamentals department, having a hard time rotating over effectively to guard the paint and picking up some questionable fouls. His basketball IQ is clearly nothing to write home about, and unless he’s able to significantly improve his skill-level over the next few years (not out of the question considering how far he’s come), he looks a lot more likely to develop into a solid energy guy/role-player rather than the game-changing presence you might expect from a potential top-5 pick. With that in mind, the fact that his rebounding rate has fallen significantly recently, going from over averaging over 12 boards per contest in the first 20 games, to just 9.3 rebounds in last 12 games, is not a great sign.

Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jordan-Hill-1222/

Just by reading that you wonder if Donnie drafted Hill just based on his individual workouts.

or maybe he drafted him based on the part that you chose not to bold? alot of what's in this report are things i noticed while watching him in games too, but u could clearly see this kid's potential & athletic ability... we had no idea what was going to happen w/David Lee's contract situation either... Donnie & MDA were obviously not high on any of the remaining PG prospects after Evans, Rubio, Flynn & Curry were taken off the board so they went w/their gut & took who they felt was the BPA... yes they missed out on Jennings... that's been established a while ago.

Hill was Junior not a Freshman so some of those criticisms should have been red flags. Seems to me Givony was just trying to be nice since he wrote 3 positive sentences followed by a huge paragraph on his faults.

When your only major positives are athleticism and a jumper combined with a low skill level and questionable IQ and you are drafted to be a center then there is a problem. Hill got beasted by quite a few lesser bigs last year too.

From what I remember, Jordan Hill was a consensus top-4 pick during the first half of the last NCAA tournament. He was playing great ball and his BPG were significantly higher the first half of the season than the second.

TMS is right in that we had no idea what would happen with Lee and Hill was viewed by many as a potential replacement

Jonathan Givony: You made an unbelievable jump between your sophomore and junior years, just in terms of offensively, cutting down on your fouls, just your all-around polish. What happened there that let you do that?

Jordan Hill: I was hungry. I was really hungry. My sophomore year we had Chase Budinger, Jerryd Bayless, so there were two really well known players, and no one really knew about me, so I just waited patiently and did my role.

Basically I was a little bit of a role player my sophomore year, I let those two have their fame and glory. Then my junior year came, and I was like all right, it’s time for me to step up. I started working on my game, doing everything to bring out my A game, to shoot up, and it came out my junior year, I really feel like I did a heck of a job, and I’m just going to keep going for what I want.

doesn't sound to me like Givony thought the "unbelievable jump" Jordan Hill made between his sophomore & junior years in his offensive game & all around polish was a red flag.

Jonathan Givony: One game that really sticks out in my mind is the game at Washington where you hurt your ankle, and it looked like you were done, then they bring you back onto the court, and you can’t even really move, but you somehow manage to help your team and get back in the game. That really showed me a lot. What are your thoughts on that game in particular?

Jordan Hill: Like I said, I got heart. I got heart and love of basketball. When I hurt my ankle, I definitely thought I wasn’t going to play anymore, I thought I was going to sit out the rest of the game, but when I got off the court, the trainer was on me, moving it, and I was thinking, ‘Man, I don’t think I’m going to be able to get back out.’

But then I heard the crowd getting into it, just getting louder, louder, and I was thinking my team might be losing badly, because they were just getting hyped, but then all of the sudden this adrenaline flows through my body and I’m like, ‘Man, I’m kinda ready to go now, I’m just kinda ready to go.’

So I told the trainer, ‘I’m good, I’m going to go back out there, I’m just going to keep going, I know my team needs me.’ I went out there and gave my team that little bit I had, I just wanted to help my team in any way.

So Jordan Hill really showed Givony alot about his toughness apparently, something he left out in that scouting report you cited.

Jonathan Givony: Does it matter where you go, if you go #4, if you go #9, is there a difference there for you?

Jordan Hill: Definitely not, I just want to get to the next level. I’ve been through so much in my entire life, and I hate to say it, but when I was younger I definitely had doubters who didn’t think I was going to be anything. When I look back, it’s just crazy. When my mom passed away when I was three, we were struggling, and struggling, I got into some trouble, everything kind of went downhill after my mom passed. I just want to keep going, it doesn’t matter where I go, I just want to get to that next level so I can say, ‘Yes, I accomplished what I wanted to.’

did Givony just basically project Hill to go somewhere between #4 & #9 or am i reading this wrong? he went #8... how is that a big reach if you're basing your opinion of Jordan Hill on Givony's scouting report?

Analysis:

Hill appears to be working very hard, and the staff is pleased with the progress he’s making.

Comparing him with other prospects we’ve evaluated in these types of settings over the years, it’s pretty obvious that Hill started playing basketball later than most, as he’s not a very polished player at this point in time. That’s part of what makes him so intriguing, though—he’s a late-bloomer who still has a ton of room to improve, but was still able to be productive at Arizona this season, to the tune of 18 points and 11 rebounds per game.

The biggest revelation to come out of these workouts was the way Hill was shooting the ball. His stroke looked fairly consistent from 17-18 feet out, and he was even able to knock down a couple of college and NBA range 3’s. He needs to improve the quickness of his release and continue to work on his consistency, but having a solid mid-range jumper in his arsenal will surely help him make the transition to playing quality minutes in the NBA.

Another area of intrigue lies in the basic skills Hill shows facing the basket from the mid-post. Mike Procopio has been working extensively with Hill on his footwork and ability to attack his man off the dribble from 12 to 15 feet—as you can see in the workout video. Considering the quickness advantage he will likely enjoy over most of his matchups, this could develop into a very useful weapon for Hill down the road. He was finishing in a variety of ways, often with a powerful dunk, but also with a series of runners and floaters, trying to improve his touch, particularly with his left hand, which needs work.

While Hill’s frame looks solid, it’s pretty clear that he’ll have to hit the weight room if he’s to be able to effectively compete with some of the more physically developed big men he’ll face in the NBA. He lacks strength in his lower body in particular, and this, coupled with his below average post-moves makes him fairly limited at this point with his back to the basket. This is probably not going to be a major part of his game in the NBA, but considering the direction the league is heading—where quickness, toughness and aggressiveness are far more important than brute force—players like Hill are becoming very much en vogue. It would likely benefit Hill tremendously to play in an up-tempo offense where he can utilize his athleticism in transition, alongside a point guard who is capable of creating scoring opportunities for him.

wow, sounds very similar to what i've been saying about Jordan Hill all along, doesn't it? i said if we had a PG who could push the tempo & get him the ball in transition, that his talents would be much better utilized... that's how he played with Nic Wise his junior season & he put up some terrific numbers... that's how he was UNABLE to play in NY with slow as hell "i only know how to pass to D Lee" Chris Duhon... that's how he will now be able to play alongside Aaron Brooks.

- Thabum was also going to be drafted very high but that doesnt mean we had to be the ones to do it.

- You hit the nail on the head. IF we had a PG who could run and create then Hill would have been better utilized but we didnt.

- Givony compared the man to Chris Wilcox. Givony keeps complimenting him on his athleticism and jump shot.

Jordan Hill was the 2nd best PF based on raw potential in the draft however based on this organizations inability to develop bigs combined with our huge hole at PG he was a bad selection for the Knicks.

THEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN EVEN BETTER FOR THE KNICKS..THEN CURRY WOULD HAVE SLIPPED RIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS..JUST WHAT THEY WANTED

AnubisADL wrote:

TMS wrote:Givony did not compare him to Chris Wilcox, that comparison was heard & he merely pointed it out... anyway Chris Wilcox was also very highly touted in college, got picked mid lottery just like Hill so there are parallels there obviously... if Wilcox had worked hard on improving his game he could have become a very good NBA player... from all accounts i've heard Jordan Hill has a very good work ethic... don't give me this stuff about him being lazy because someone saw him playing with his dreads on the sidelines or because MDA & Adelman said "if he keeps working hard he'll be very good"... look at the jump in production & his improved play, listen to the scouting reports & watch him being active on both ends of the floor every game he gets minutes in & formulate an educated opinion on this guy.

Jordan Hill was a bad pick for the Knicks only because MDA was too stupid to realize he needed to be playing this kid instead of playing scrubs like Fishlips & Bender all season long... yes, we probably would have been better served by picking a PG instead, but knowing this head coach who knows if that kid gets any play either & doesn't get dumped in that retarded T-Mac trade? the idiots that completely mismanaged the draft selection need to be held at fault i agree with you, but that doesn't make Jordan Hill a bad prospect... let's get it straight.

I think you are confusing me with Cosmic. I agree with everything you said. Jordan Hill needed alot of development that he wasnt going to get here especially with our goal being Lebron in 2010.

sorry i was more speaking in general terms, not aiming my comments directly at you... but i think we do disagree about Givony's opinion when it came to Jordan Hill... seems to me a predominance of his scouting reports on him were very positive & yet you chose to single out the only real negative one & said you wished Donnie had read Givony's scouting reports before taking Hill at #8... if Donnie had done his own due diligence & actually scouted Brandon Jennings we probably aren't having this conversation to begin with & we wouldn't have to be hearing all these ridiculous Mikki Moore comparisons based on nothing but sharing the same hair weaver.

i agree w/u that Donnie royally messed up with our #8 draft pick this year... he didn't scout the players he should have been scouting & went in to the draft badly unprepared with no real fallback plan, that's just inexcusable... Brandon Jennings should be a Knick, Donnie Walsh should do his damn job instead of relying on other people to tell him about prospects before he even knows who they are, MDA should keep his dirty hands out of the selection process when it comes to players & just coach the players he is given to coach... it seems very simple to tell guys to just do their jobs, doesn't it?

nixluva wrote:With taking into consideration what DW has said about FA and not wanting to wait to develop an entire team of young players, it's highly conceivable that both DW and MDA had trading Hill in mind all along as a distinct possibility. If he was closer to being ready to contribute at the level they wanted and showed that early on, I think there's no question MDA would've played him more. Fact is that the kid didn't come out of the gates strong and that started in SL. Trading Hill isn't necessarily a knock on his potential as a prospect, but instead a decision to go after a FA that is already developed and using him in the trade in order to move Jared, made tactical sense. Hill is still very much a solid prospect and I have no problem with the pick if they were sketchy about Jennings, which a LOT of teams were. There were risks with Jennings and bravo for the Bucks for being willing to take a shot on the kid. They did their homework and he seems like a solid pick.

I still think that the idea of trying to build your team via FA isn't a bad idea if you are smart and don't overpay for the wrong players. It's a risk, but then how is the draft any different? The draft also has to workout in most cases in successive years or you have to be able to stack multiple picks so that you can be sure to get good talent in a deep draft. We were already screwed by the fact that we didn't have a pick this year. So DW decided to go all in on FA instead. We'll be the test subject for trying to do it this way. if you had to pick a year to do it this is definitely the best one to try and do something this different.

look, if the idea was to trade Hill from the very beginning then it's completely counterproductive not to be playing him... that only decreases his trade value... rookies need to show what they can do in order to increase their trade value... otherwise we would have gotten a lot more value in a trade if we had traded the lottery pick before the draft... it's pretty basic.

& i still don't get all this talk about how out of shape & clearly not ready to play in SL comes from... this guy put up 14 & 8 in SL this year, pretty respectable numbers... Brandon Jennings put up 14 a game in SL too, does that mean he was out of shape & not ready to contribute at the NBA level?

TMS wrote:Givony did not compare him to Chris Wilcox, that comparison was heard & he merely pointed it out... anyway Chris Wilcox was also very highly touted in college, got picked mid lottery just like Hill so there are parallels there obviously... if Wilcox had worked hard on improving his game he could have become a very good NBA player... from all accounts i've heard Jordan Hill has a very good work ethic... don't give me this stuff about him being lazy because someone saw him playing with his dreads on the sidelines or because MDA & Adelman said "if he keeps working hard he'll be very good"... look at the jump in production & his improved play, listen to the scouting reports & watch him being active on both ends of the floor every game he gets minutes in & formulate an educated opinion on this guy.

Jordan Hill was a bad pick for the Knicks only because MDA was too stupid to realize he needed to be playing this kid instead of playing scrubs like Fishlips & Bender all season long... yes, we probably would have been better served by picking a PG instead, but knowing this head coach who knows if that kid gets any play either & doesn't get dumped in that retarded T-Mac trade? the idiots that completely mismanaged the draft selection need to be held at fault i agree with you, but that doesn't make Jordan Hill a bad prospect... let's get it straight.

who cares... that's not a dig at you by the way. just me saying the "argument" isn't worth the effort.

as for the Wilcox comparison, there is some similarity, but not a lot, and that draft class sucked from top to bottom. Whereas this one already appears to be pretty damned good. And in a good draft class, Hill was DEFINITELY the consensus number two big man. He's clearly going to be a rotation player for a long time in the league, perhaps a starter, and who knows what the limit is. It's not like any of us have seen him play anywhere close to 82 games.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:Hill IMO wasn't fully ready to really contribute early on. There's a difference between being out their and playing and playing well.

whereas Jonathan Bender was ready to play & play well after 4 years of inactivity, 1 practice & 2 gimpy knees... gotcha.