JohnWallace44 wrote:Drafting hill in the first place was the mistake

Why would you say that? We know now that the coach wanted Hill over Jennings. It would seem only logical that he would play him on a team going nowhere that was undersized and loaded with limited vets with expiring contracts. Who should the Knicks have drafted that the coach would have approved of?

TMS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TMS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Suppose Hill doesn't really develope into anything more then a solid role player, and if the knicks make the playoffs (which is almost a sure thing) for the next few years+, how are those picks even relevent.

that's another big what if... what if we get Lebron & Bosh & win a championship next year? what if those picks end up to be 2 HOF calibre players that we gave away? we can go all day with this if u really want to... let's try & stick to things more tangible... we pretty much botched that #8 lottery pick this year otherwise we wouldn't have had to trade it away to dump a $7 million dollar salary this summer.

When you think about last year and this year, the knicks have to be far better then they were this season come next year (partly to justify the last 2 seasons) , and you have to give your self every shot at becoming that.

We have tried to building through the draft (mis handling that countless times), we have trid to buy our way out of the doldrums, we have signed and FIRED HOF coaches (one that faxed his damn resignation), and Now were suppose to sit tight and take our time and see if hill can develope into some kind of allstar in 2 seasons...

We are Big time players in whats looking like the biggest FA period in the history of the NBA, a great chance to land a proven leader and franchise player, and you guys are worried about pontential players who we don't know shht about.

You have a GM who can go to Labron or wade and essential ask them who would they like to play with in the MECCA OF BASKETBALL, thats a major trump card the way i see it.

u guys continue to try & paint this picture that we HAD to make this trade in order to have cap space this summer & that just wasn't the case... we already had cap space to land at least 1 max FA this summer & another mid tier guy BEFORE we made the trade... Donnie made sure of that by dumping Zach & Jamal last year, which were both good trades because he didn't have to give up any assets to do it... then he goes & gives up all those assets to dump Jared Fishlips... so unless he has something worked out under the table with Lebron & another max FA this summer, there's really no justifying it... if we made all those moves of unloading Zach, Jamal, Jordan Hill, Fishlips & draft rights to 2 future 1st round picks just so we could sign David Lee & Joe Johnson this summer, it's a huge clusterphuch of epic proportions... that's what people are afraid of right now, except for the select few around here who seem to think resigning Lee is worth going through all that trouble that is... if we end up getting Lebron & another max FA this summer, obviously no one's gonna care that we gave up Jordan Hill & 2 future draft pick rights, or Zach & Jamal last year, because it would all have been worth it, but right now that is a big huge what if to lay your hat on, especially with limited assets to offer up in any sign & trade type scenario to land those types of players.

So we should not do this trade and keep JJ and Hill.
Also we should not unload Zack and Jamal.
Then it will be no huge what-ifs this summer.
Hmmm... I guess I like this what-ifs much better.

Cosmic wrote:And I still say we picked Hill (looking back in hindsight of course) as a future tradeable asset and not necessarily a player we were going to try to develop.

Think about it: We're gunning for high profile FA targets. How would a raw PF fit in with that plan? How would he fit in on a team loaded with forwards? He wouldn't and he didn't.

We didn't draft Jordan Hill to be a Knick for life. When you really look at it now you can't possibly think we drafted this kid to be a part of our future.

what possible sense does it make to take a kid with a #8 lottery pick if he was solely meant to be used as a trade asset & not play him during the season? that doesn't make any sense whatsoever, all you're doing is devaluing your asset that way... if the plan was to use it was a trade asset you would have gotten much better value just trading the pick on draft night, or by playing him max minutes during the season so he could put up numbers, not giving him 14 consecutive DNP-CD's while other rookies were getting minutes all over the league... u telling me there wouldn't be a team out there willing to take on Fishlips' contract if we were willing to give up the pick last summer? that wouldn't have even been a good trade to make on our part & we ended up having to give up draft rights to 2 future picks on top, which is just completely moronic when u think about it.

TMS wrote:

arkrud wrote:

TMS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TMS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Suppose Hill doesn't really develope into anything more then a solid role player, and if the knicks make the playoffs (which is almost a sure thing) for the next few years+, how are those picks even relevent.

that's another big what if... what if we get Lebron & Bosh & win a championship next year? what if those picks end up to be 2 HOF calibre players that we gave away? we can go all day with this if u really want to... let's try & stick to things more tangible... we pretty much botched that #8 lottery pick this year otherwise we wouldn't have had to trade it away to dump a $7 million dollar salary this summer.

When you think about last year and this year, the knicks have to be far better then they were this season come next year (partly to justify the last 2 seasons) , and you have to give your self every shot at becoming that.

We have tried to building through the draft (mis handling that countless times), we have trid to buy our way out of the doldrums, we have signed and FIRED HOF coaches (one that faxed his damn resignation), and Now were suppose to sit tight and take our time and see if hill can develope into some kind of allstar in 2 seasons...

We are Big time players in whats looking like the biggest FA period in the history of the NBA, a great chance to land a proven leader and franchise player, and you guys are worried about pontential players who we don't know shht about.

You have a GM who can go to Labron or wade and essential ask them who would they like to play with in the MECCA OF BASKETBALL, thats a major trump card the way i see it.

u guys continue to try & paint this picture that we HAD to make this trade in order to have cap space this summer & that just wasn't the case... we already had cap space to land at least 1 max FA this summer & another mid tier guy BEFORE we made the trade... Donnie made sure of that by dumping Zach & Jamal last year, which were both good trades because he didn't have to give up any assets to do it... then he goes & gives up all those assets to dump Jared Fishlips... so unless he has something worked out under the table with Lebron & another max FA this summer, there's really no justifying it... if we made all those moves of unloading Zach, Jamal, Jordan Hill, Fishlips & draft rights to 2 future 1st round picks just so we could sign David Lee & Joe Johnson this summer, it's a huge clusterphuch of epic proportions... that's what people are afraid of right now, except for the select few around here who seem to think resigning Lee is worth going through all that trouble that is... if we end up getting Lebron & another max FA this summer, obviously no one's gonna care that we gave up Jordan Hill & 2 future draft pick rights, or Zach & Jamal last year, because it would all have been worth it, but right now that is a big huge what if to lay your hat on, especially with limited assets to offer up in any sign & trade type scenario to land those types of players.

So we should not do this trade and keep JJ and Hill.
Also we should not unload Zack and Jamal.
Then it will be no huge what-ifs this summer.
Hmmm... I guess I like this what-ifs much better.

what kinda nonsense are you talking now? when did i ever say we shouldn't have traded Zach & Jamal? i've been the most vocal supporter of both of those trades.

The JJ/Hill trade was logical continiation of Zack/Jamal trade.
We have here some people who are finally consistent in what they do.
If they will fail of succed we know whom to blame or prise.
Isn't it cool?

TMS wrote:

The JJ/Hill trade was logical continiation of Zack/Jamal trade.
We have here some people who are finally consistent in what they do.
If they will fail of succed we know whom to blame or prise.
Isn't it cool?

dude, the Zach/Jamal trades were good because we didn't have to give up any future assets to unload $52 mil worth of their contracts... the JJ/Hill trade was horrible because we gave up a #8 lottery rook & rights to 2 future 1st round picks to unload $7 mil worth of Jeffries contract... if u can't see the differences there i dunno what to tell u.

I can see the difference but you had to agree that no GM can produce miracles all the time.
I do not believe that Hill will be anything special and that this 2 picks will be worth anything significant.
Obviously you can believe otherwise. And this is no point to argue about believes.

AnubisADL wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

JohnWallace44 wrote:Drafting hill in the first place was the mistake

Why would you say that? We know now that the coach wanted Hill over Jennings. It would seem only logical that he would play him on a team going nowhere that was undersized and loaded with limited vets with expiring contracts. Who should the Knicks have drafted that the coach would have approved of?

Jennings is still a headcase and not the best of players so far either. Hill seemed like the safer pick but the guy is very unskilled. Toney should have gone #8 and Hill #29 at this point.

But what we really screwed up is not using the pick to dump Jeffries on draft day. Would have really saved a lot of headaches.

Yet, I have this suspicion that we tried. We were in talks to use Chandler and the #8 to get #5 so we could grab Rubio. So I think we tried various trade scenarios and when none panned out (Wash had the better package for Minny) then we went BPA (non-headcase) and it was Hill.

And I still say we picked Hill (looking back in hindsight of course) as a future tradeable asset and not necessarily a player we were going to try to develop.

Think about it: We're gunning for high profile FA targets. How would a raw PF fit in with that plan? How would he fit in on a team loaded with forwards? He wouldn't and he didn't.

We didn't draft Jordan Hill to be a Knick for life. When you really look at it now you can't possibly think we drafted this kid to be a part of our future.

Revisionist History

- Jennings isnt a headcase and you have zero evidence to contradict that statement.

- Hill being the safer pick was relative due to poor scouting

- Use a lottery pick to move Jefferies? LMAO. Jefferies is bad but requiring a lottery pick to move him a year ago was a reach.

- Minnesota acquired the picks for Foye and Miller and didnt include picks. The negotiations were for Chandler and Filler and Walsh was caught sleeping. Once again the headcase reasoning is built on a house of tooth picks.

- We drafted Hill to play center and Walsh realized he wasted the pick. Walsh trading a lottery pick just to move Jefferies in no way seems pre-meditated man.

- Even if we entertain your reasoning it would be more likely Hill would be used in a S&T since most guys will want that 6th year.

Your excuses for managements failures are reaching. Walsh has contradicted your ideas with his own statements. Walsh has always been hesitant in pulling the trigger on deals here as well. Everyone was saying Walsh was waiting to make multiple deals before the deadline and we ended up having our backs to the wall.

Read his twitter. He's a fool. Watch what he did after a game to I think KG? He's a fool. Read all his comments over the summer. He's a punk. Teams passed over him because of this. So you're wrong.

Hill was picked because everyone we wanted was off the board and we were down to BPA. In hindsight Hill was hardly BPA but at the time it seemed he was. Deal with it.

Yes, use a lottery pick to move Jeffries. Instead we had to use who we picked with that lotto pick AND throw in a 2011 swap AND a 2012 pick outright. So again, you're wrong. It would have been WORLDS better for us to just use Jeffries+Pick on draft night for a 2010 contract.

Minny and Washington proved to be better trade partners. End of story. Walsh tried. Walsh tried to give Washington JJ. Walsh tried to get Rubio. Both teams were known to be looking to deal. Walsh talked to both. We failed. We didn't have what either team wanted - versus - what those teams gave each other. So again, you're off.

Reasoning we picked Hill for a possible trade? Because again, he was BPA at the time, and we didn't land anyone we wanted. So yes, I don't think it's a stretch to assume he was picked with the mindset that he would be traded down the line (Or, someone on the present roster traded down the line to make room for him). It made zero sense otherwise to pick him. So, well, again, you're off.

AnubisADL wrote:

Cosmic wrote:Read his twitter. He's a fool. Watch what he did after a game to I think KG? He's a fool. Read all his comments over the summer. He's a punk. Teams passed over him because of this. So you're wrong.

Hill was picked because everyone we wanted was off the board and we were down to BPA. In hindsight Hill was hardly BPA but at the time it seemed he was. Deal with it.

Yes, use a lottery pick to move Jeffries. Instead we had to use who we picked with that lotto pick AND throw in a 2011 swap AND a 2012 pick outright. So again, you're wrong. It would have been WORLDS better for us to just use Jeffries+Pick on draft night for a 2010 contract.

Minny and Washington proved to be better trade partners. End of story. Walsh tried. Walsh tried to give Washington JJ. Walsh tried to get Rubio. Both teams were known to be looking to deal. Walsh talked to both. We failed. We didn't have what either team wanted - versus - what those teams gave each other. So again, you're off.

Reasoning we picked Hill for a possible trade? Because again, he was BPA at the time, and we didn't land anyone we wanted. So yes, I don't think it's a stretch to assume he was picked with the mindset that he would be traded down the line (Or, someone on the present roster traded down the line to make room for him). It made zero sense otherwise to pick him. So, well, again, you're off.

Watch what he did to KG? The same KG who got on the floor and was barking at Jerryd Bayless. The same KG that taunts guys from the bench? You are once again grasping at straws. You haven't a leg to stand on or evidence to prove he is a head case. So using slang while talking casually to friends and fans on Twitter makes him a head-case/fool now?

You suggesting moving Jefferies on draft day with our pick would have been a good idea? It would have been the smarter to try to move Jefferies and Curry before moving Randolph and Crawford. We moved our "good" players which just helped to expose the guys we really needed to move even more. I said early this year playing Jefferies major minutes is only going to result in teams seeing how limited he really is. Did people think Jefferies hitting a few 3's was going to change GMs perceptions? Jefferies should have been packaged with Chandler or Robinson last season and heavily shopped. Walsh didnt want to include assets then and waited until the last minute and was forced to give up even more assets.

Walsh tries to take these hard stances on trades when he isn't even negotiating from the position of power. Houston wanted Jordan Hill and Picks in December and that is what they got in February.

I'm grasping at nothing but reality. Jennings is a problem child. Many people see it. Who cares what KG does to other players. Does that somehow absolve Jennings of maturity? KG is an idiot so it's okay that Jennings is an idiot? It doesn't.

Yes, again, since you can't follow. Anyone in their right mind would go back in time and use the Hill pick to move Jeffries for a 2010 contract - instead of doing what we were backed into a corner to do: Give up that same pick, plus another pick, plus a swap of another pick. You think what we did at the deadline is better than what we could have done draft night? You think we could have just kept Hill/JJ and been fine this offseason where we couldn't even keep Lee and sign another player because we didn't have the cap space? Come'on now. You're the one grasping at straws!

Walsh takes the stances any credible GM does. He doesn't flinch until he has to. He didn't give up a 1st round pick to the Clipps or the Grizz when he was trying to unload Zach. He said no way and waited and eventually got the trade he wanted. Jordan Hill sucks. I laugh at Houston making him the lynchpin in a trade - which well he wasn't - it was the picks mostly. Also, before anyone blasts Walsh again? Houston talked to Chicago and they wanted the same damn thing from Chicago. They wanted a 2011 swap, a 2012 pick, Tyrus Thomas, and they wanted Salmons/Miller (or was it Hinrich). Same damn package. So, no, Walsh didn't get hosed.

But, it's fun to say he did. "LOL OLD MAN SLEEPING" and what not.

Back to Houston - the Knicks and Rockets apparently talked multiple times since the summer to get this trade done.

And, in the end, what's done IS DONE. We were all in for 2010 and we had to do this trade to make it possible. So be it. I won't cry over Jordan Fucking Hill like some of you do. I'm even convinced some of you don't even care about Jordan Hill but you mention him as a way to bash Walsh/Mike.

I can't understand why anyone would bash what Walsh and Mike are doing given the fact that the path that Layden and Isiah took us down did nothing but inflate payroll. But you guys cry about Walsh stopping that and pine for the days of Crawful and Zachass and 145M dollar payrolls and 28 wins.

I don't get that and never will.

Time to get on board with reality.

Time to get on board with the Knicks, you know the team you claim to love, and give them a chance to prove themselves this summer instead of bashing them for such trivial things as trading bum ass Jordan Hill as if he was poised to be the best big man to ever play the game.

AnubisADL wrote:

Cosmic wrote:Read his twitter. He's a fool. Watch what he did after a game to I think KG? He's a fool. Read all his comments over the summer. He's a punk. Teams passed over him because of this. So you're wrong.

Hill was picked because everyone we wanted was off the board and we were down to BPA. In hindsight Hill was hardly BPA but at the time it seemed he was. Deal with it.

Yes, use a lottery pick to move Jeffries. Instead we had to use who we picked with that lotto pick AND throw in a 2011 swap AND a 2012 pick outright. So again, you're wrong. It would have been WORLDS better for us to just use Jeffries+Pick on draft night for a 2010 contract.

Minny and Washington proved to be better trade partners. End of story. Walsh tried. Walsh tried to give Washington JJ. Walsh tried to get Rubio. Both teams were known to be looking to deal. Walsh talked to both. We failed. We didn't have what either team wanted - versus - what those teams gave each other. So again, you're off.

Reasoning we picked Hill for a possible trade? Because again, he was BPA at the time, and we didn't land anyone we wanted. So yes, I don't think it's a stretch to assume he was picked with the mindset that he would be traded down the line (Or, someone on the present roster traded down the line to make room for him). It made zero sense otherwise to pick him. So, well, again, you're off.

Watch what he did to KG? The same KG who got on the floor and was barking at Jerryd Bayless. The same KG that taunts guys from the bench? You are once again grasping at straws. You haven't a leg to stand on or evidence to prove he is a head case. So using slang while talking casually to friends and fans on Twitter makes him a head-case/fool now?

You suggesting moving Jefferies on draft day with our pick would have been a good idea? It would have been the smarter to try to move Jefferies and Curry before moving Randolph and Crawford. We moved our "good" players which just helped to expose the guys we really needed to move even more. I said early this year playing Jefferies major minutes is only going to result in teams seeing how limited he really is. Did people think Jefferies hitting a few 3's was going to change GMs perceptions? Jefferies should have been packaged with Chandler or Robinson last season and heavily shopped. Walsh didnt want to include assets then and waited until the last minute and was forced to give up even more assets.

Walsh tries to take these hard stances on trades when he isn't even negotiating from the position of power. Houston wanted Jordan Hill and Picks in December and that is what they got in February.

LOL! i still remember all the posters talkin' about how we needed to feature Fishlips & how much he was raising his trade value whenever he had a good game... for him a good game was 10 & 8 over 40 freakin' minutes & guys would be praising MDA's genius for playing this guy talkin' bout how he was the glue to a winning formula... let's praise MDA for his genius judgement in letting Jordan Hill languish on the bench while he ran Fishlips out there for 35+ a night... he really did an awesome job of raising the guy's trade value... scary to think what we would have had to give up to unload his contract if he hadn't played at all.